The knee is NOT the best target for self defense

[zDom]

Not sure I am decided on this opinion, but for the sake of argument I'm going to say:

The knee is NOT the best target for self defense.

Reasons:

• They are roundish, narrow targets that are hard to get a solid strike on with forward moving linear kicks such as front, side or stomp kicks. Tendency is for the strikes to glance and slide off to one side or the other. Its either bullseye or nothing.

• They are below the hip joint. The downward motion on forward moving linear kicks such as side or stomp kicks make it hard to get a solid strike: tendency is to slide down the leg.

• Easy for opponent to move the target out of the way.

• Must be within hand striking range to deliver a knee kick.

I might even suggest that the knee is NOT even a GOOD choice.

(A better target might be the quadriceps, even ...)

Best target: dinner-plate sized target with the top at the belly button and the bottom at the groin. Target includes the hip joint, bladder, genitals, lower abdomen.

This hip-area target is very EASY to land a solid hit on because:

• Flat-ish, hence a much lower tendency to glance off to the side.

• Strike on the "bullseye" hits something vulnerable as well as strikes that are slightly off from the bullseye.

• At about the same level at the kicker's hip joint providing

a) maximum range — i.e., out of range of the target's hands.

and

b) Liner forward moving kicks are coming in at a roughly perpendicular angle which results in force more likely to be delivered to the target and less likely to slide off.

• Hard for opponent to move target out of the way: they must move their entire body to displace this target! (My football coach used to advice us to always tackle at the hip: no matter what they do with their legs or upper body, where the hips go they go!)

Having a long "Muay Thai" heavy back to train at, I find that even with a wider, stable target, are I am able to deliver more force with kicks and more consistently at about hip height. THAT is the "Boom Zone" for kicking.

Therefore I submit for discussion that the lower abdomen area as described above is the BEST CHOICE for a self-defense kick.

Discuss

 

[Ironcrane]

Not sure I am decided on this opinion, but for the sake of argument I'm going to say:

The knee is NOT the best target for self defense.

Reasons:

• They are roundish, narrow targets that are hard to get a solid strike on with forward moving linear kicks such as front, side or stomp kicks. Tendency is for the strikes to glance and slide off to one side or the other. Its either bullseye or nothing.

• They are below the hip joint. The downward motion on forward moving linear kicks such as side or stomp kicks make it hard to get a solid strike: tendency is to slide down the leg.

• Easy for opponent to move the target out of the way.

• Must be within hand striking range to deliver a knee kick.

I might even suggest that the knee is NOT even a GOOD choice.

This should make for an interesting topic. For the points you made, I shall give my counter arguments. Based off my own experience.

- I never had a hard time getting a good shot at the knee with a kick.

- I usually throw kicks to the knee when my opponent is already in motion, so it's not that easy for them to avoid it.

- I have thus far been able to stay out of arms reach with low side kicks to the knee.

 

[zDom]

This should make for an interesting topic. For the points you made, I shall give my counter arguments. Based off my own experience.

- I never had a hard time getting a good shot at the knee with a kick.

- I usually throw kicks to the knee when my opponent is already in motion, so it's not that easy for them to avoid it.

- I have thus far been able to stay out of arms reach with low side kicks to the knee.

During free sparring or full contract/self defense?

Forward moving linear kicks ... or roundhouses to the sides of the knees?

(Based on full-contract sports, I submit that MOST kickers do not connect with enough force to end a conflict even after over a dozen roundhouse kicks to the side of the knee area).

Provide specific examples along with descriptions of the results.

 

[nitflegal]

Hmm, I like the knee as a target, myself. The primary reason is that, unlike targets from the groin up, it is very difficult to block without being forced into an angle or sacrificing balance. Speaking from experience, I've been axe kicked on the quad and, while it hurt like heck then and spasmed throughout the night, it didn't incapacitate me during the fight. The knee, on the other hand not only is painful more easily but function compromise happens fairly easily. It also forces the opponent to widen their focus and maintain defense all down the legs, which limits them to an extent.

Matt

 

[zDom]

Further thoughts for discussion:

front moving linear kicks create and/or maintain distance between you (the defender) and the attacker, hence are a better choice than strikes against the side of the knee.

Furthemore, a front moving linear kick to the attacker's hip area will place/keep them at legs-distance at the conclusion of the kick (i.e., out of hand striking range) whereas during a kick to the knee they may be simultaneously striking you in the head/face area or pulling you into a clinch.

Additionally, if they "shoot" at the same time, a knee kick may pass under their body whereas a HIP kick is at the same level as their head/shoulders.

 

[zDom]

Hmm, I like the knee as a target, myself. The primary reason is that, unlike targets from the groin up, it is very difficult to block without being forced into an angle or sacrificing balance. Speaking from experience, I've been axe kicked on the quad and, while it hurt like heck then and spasmed throughout the night, it didn't incapacitate me during the fight. The knee, on the other hand not only is painful more easily but function compromise happens fairly easily. It also forces the opponent to widen their focus and maintain defense all down the legs, which limits them to an extent.

Matt

Comment: I find that even martial artists have difficulty blocking kicks below the belt. Moving the lead knee out of range is as simple as moving front leg backward to a switched stance. Moving the HIPS out of range takes considerably more movement.

How many documented or even anecdotal knee incapications can we come up with? I have always THOUGHT it is a great way to end a fight ... but I have never, in all my years of collecting anecdotes, heard of one Not a single one.

The ONLY ones that come to mind are those in movies, i.e., fiction such as "Roadhouse."

I've seen a couple of guys in UFC matches look like they were in some pain from repeated kicks to the side of the knee — but only a few (5% maybe?) actually threw in the towel over them, although more were a contributing factor in them losing to some other attack eventually.

But in self defense, we do not have three 3-minute rounds to deliver cumulative damage for a finish with some other technique, do we?



So.. anyone out there END a fight with a knee kick? Raise your hand and tell us all about it

 

[jarrod]

the best target for self defense is the one that is the most vulnerable at the time and offers the least risk to attack. no target is a guaranteed stopper, so it's important to have a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc target in mind. there is no "best" target.

the knee is a valid target, imo, but just like any other target you shouldn't count on your attacker stopping immediately & writhing in pain as beautiful large breasted women flock to you. it's just a target. there are no magic bullets.

jf

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Opinions of a MA newbie, take it for what it may be worth:

For self-defense, I think the knee is a good target.

The knee can be struck from multiple angles. The knee is often a leading target, out in front of every other part of the bad guy's body. It may be easy for a trained MA'ist to move the knee, but most non-trained people put weight on their leading knee, and cannot retract it quickly, nor can they protect it effectively. Once they plant the leg, the knee's not going anywhere.

It is also an unexpected attack (for a non-MA'ist). People expect to be kicked in the snarglies, punched in the face. They do not expect to have the knee taken out with a side-thrust kick that doesn't even come from directly in front of them. Even when dealing with LE, bad guys don't have experience with LE taking out a knee, as we are (or were, in my day) trained NOT to take the knee, as damage there is generally permanent.

A person kicked in the groin can sometimes stagger away. Nobody hops away on one leg. A drug-addled person can ignore severe pain, but nobody can ignore a joint that will no longer support weight.

Just my thoughts. I'd have no hesitation to try to take the knee in a self-defense situation. Not that I'd ignore shots to the solar plexus, but if he's going to stick that knee out there and plant weight on it...

 

[jks9199]

the best target for self defense is the one that is the most vulnerable at the time and offers the least risk to attack. no target is a guaranteed stopper, so it's important to have a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc target in mind. there is no "best" target.

the knee is a valid target, imo, but just like any other target you shouldn't count on your attacker stopping immediately & writhing in pain as beautiful large breasted women flock to you. it's just a target. there are no magic bullets.

jf

Great post.

I don't like the groin area as a target for self defense because too many folks think it's an instant fight ender. Unless you can reliably destroy the hip structure with the shot, it's not. Yeah, there are lots of targets and lots of vulnerabilities... but it's not as reliable as some people think.

The best target is the target that you can strike with the most effect at the moment. Depending on the specifics of the situation, that could be anything from literally the toes or fingers on up to targets like the throat or eyes. Whatever you do should be part of a sequence of attacks, because the odds are that one shot won't stop the fight.

 

[blindsage]

I'm not even sure how to engage this discussion.

Are all front kicks comitted moving ones?

Are all front kicks linear (are most)?

When people are talking about targeting the knee, are they only talking about as a single distance attack from kicking range?

What if you target the knee in trapping or clinch range? Is it a valid target then?

What if you aren't looking at single attack vectors?

What if your kicking methods aren't limited to kickboxing style roundhouses and front kicks?

What if you use a kick to the knee as a feint or distraction? Is it valid then?

What if you're targeting the back support knee when you're opponent is kicking?

If you do use a front kick, are you limited to pushing your opponent away?

With most fighting stances at a 45 degree angle to the opponent, why won't front kicks be likely to slide off the torso? Especially if the opponent moves at all?

And why is it either or? Who claimed the knee was "best"? Why are we limiting our targets? When did one OR the other become a useful way to strategize for SD?

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

How many documented or even anecdotal knee incapications can we come up with? I have always THOUGHT it is a great way to end a fight ... but I have never, in all my years of collecting anecdotes, heard of one Not a single one.

The ONLY ones that come to mind are those in movies, i.e., fiction such as "Roadhouse."

I've seen a couple of guys in UFC matches look like they were in some pain from repeated kicks to the side of the knee — but only a few (5% maybe?) actually threw in the towel over them, although more were a contributing factor in them losing to some other attack eventually.

But in self defense, we do not have three 3-minute rounds to deliver cumulative damage for a finish with some other technique, do we?



So.. anyone out there END a fight with a knee kick? Raise your hand and tell us all about it

When I was 18, I incapacitated a man in a streetfight with a snapping side kick to the knee. I'd had a self-defense course the previous year, and that was one of the few techniques that I mastered. I did it hard and fast, and it was right on target. He went down like a ton of bricks, and I ran away. Slowly, because I'm not a fast runner.

I like this particular kick, because I'm short (so most men's hips are higher than mine). At this stage in my training, I seem to be able to generate a lot of power and accuracy with low leg kicks, but I lose power and accuracy with kicks above my waist. This may change as my training progresses, but until then I'll keep this kick in my arsenal.

 

[still learning]

Hello, The Knees are a very good tarket to AIM for! Just the legal aspects can be "costly" if sue or go to court for damages....which can last a life time...

To say the knees are NOT the best tarkets...is like saying everything else is NOT good either...All tarkets will need some kind of feint..or high/low...techniques to be able to open the Tarkets?

A hard kick to the Knee ( damage them) ..will almost end the Fight right way...which is what you will want to do in any "street confrontations"
A damage knee will be hard to stand on and chase after you...

Study tarkets that will end most attacks? ...the knees will be on the list of "best" tarkets to take out....

To stop an attack from advancing many time lifting your foot and put it on the front knee of the attacker...will many times stop them in there tracks...study this further...

Knees .....most of us have two of them...one on each side of the legs...
many times both are use in praying....

We "pray" you will understand the effects of attacks to the knees...is a GREAT tarkets!!!

....best NOT to train yourself of what is NOT the best tarkets to hit(knees)...every tarket...when set up or comes available should be taken into accounts..

Limit the minds...will limit one self........Aloha..

 

[Deaf Smith]

There is no 'best' target. Only some targets that are more available than others.

Most martial artist don't practice knee attacks (or any leg attack) anywhere near as much as face or body attacks.


And that is really the problem.

Deaf

 

[MJS]

I like what Jarrod said in his post. I feel the same way. For me, I'm not looking for the 1 hit, 1 kill. I'm looking for a series of hits to get my desired result. Is the 1/1 possible? Sure, but IMO, its a crap shoot, and one that I dont want to always bank on.

So, while wearing sneakers, boots, etc., I'm sure that a good hard shot to the knee or shin will get a result. We will most likely get a reaction. And that is the reaction that I want to take advantage of. If I can get in a hit, to take the bad guys mind off of his original intent, just for a second, that buys me enough time to do something else.

I'm thinking back to the Kajukenbo Fight Quest episode, when Prof. Harper, now, GM Harper, had one of his guys take Doug thru some SD techs. The guy made the comment, "This hit sets up my second hit, which sets up my third hit, which sets up my fourth hit." and so forth.

Kenpo and especially Arnis, focus alot on low line kicks. I'm training them all the time, and I feel confident enough to hit there and confident enough that I will get a reaction.

 

[seasoned]

Opinions of a MA newbie, take it for what it may be worth:

For self-defense, I think the knee is a good target.

The knee can be struck from multiple angles. The knee is often a leading target, out in front of every other part of the bad guy's body. It may be easy for a trained MA'ist to move the knee, but most non-trained people put weight on their leading knee, and cannot retract it quickly, nor can they protect it effectively. Once they plant the leg, the knee's not going anywhere.

It is also an unexpected attack (for a non-MA'ist). People expect to be kicked in the snarglies, punched in the face. They do not expect to have the knee taken out with a side-thrust kick that doesn't even come from directly in front of them. Even when dealing with LE, bad guys don't have experience with LE taking out a knee, as we are (or were, in my day) trained NOT to take the knee, as damage there is generally permanent.

A person kicked in the groin can sometimes stagger away. Nobody hops away on one leg. A drug-addled person can ignore severe pain, but nobody can ignore a joint that will no longer support weight.

Just my thoughts. I'd have no hesitation to try to take the knee in a self-defense situation. Not that I'd ignore shots to the solar plexus, but if he's going to stick that knee out there and plant weight on it...

Good points as always, Bill. The smallest of people can take down the biggest, using the knee strike. As with any kick, we should practice it often. Most hits need to be somewhat precise, the knee kick is no exception.

 

[K-man]

The knee is one of my preferred targets. No matter how big and strong a man is, the side of his knee is always vulnerable. I teach a number of knee joint kicks and which one you use depends on your position relative to your attacker. A frontal attack on the knee will be next to useless if his knee is bent so that to me is not an option. A shin kick to the side of the knee, delivered with trained force will cause an enormous amount of damage. That's the one I train most. And finally if you're off the line and can get in behind the knee with the kick it is a relatively safe takedown option.
I like the lower abdomen option as well, but if an attacker is charging at you with intent, that's like standing in front of a moving truck. It might stop if you're lucky. I prefer to punch that area if I'm in close. :asian:

 

[mwd0818]

I do agree with the "dinner plate" target being a solid one, but for kicks in a real self-defense situation, that one is getting a little high for me to really target with regularly. (It's definitely still in "range" but it is at the upper limit.)

Knees are great targets, although the superlative best implies that it is better than others. As mentioned earlier, the best target is the one that presents itself in the situation. Instead, in pure self-defense classes, I teach primary and secondary targets. Knee is a primary target meaning that if it's there, it's probably a good bet.

One of the best things about the knee as a target in coming from a Kenpo background is this:

1) If it hits with enough force, there is significant structural damage that can end the fight.
2) If it doesn't hit with enough force for #1, it can disrupt the body's structure, opening up a variety of additional targets (especially the head) while checking the opponent's available counter-attacks
3) If it doesn't do enough for #1 or #2, it can change an opponent's focus to a lower zone, thereby opening up additional targets in the upper ranges (away from the attacker's focus) - see #2

 

[MA-Caver]

I agree that the knee is a good target. Granted it does have to be hit correctly like K-man said but once struck (fist, foot, elbow) then the damage is there and the guy isn't able to stand on it and the pain can be excruciating, think of football and basketball players that have blown out their knees, those guys aren't rolling around screaming because it tickles.
Also in the heat of a fight most people do not even think about their knees as a potential target, as stated most will worry about their groin and faces. Some will think their abs are tough enough to handle a hard strike but then they learn the hard way on that one.
A good hammer fist to the knee I've learned helps when the attacker has you in a vise from behind and has you bent over forward trying to push/muscle you to the ground. If one strike doesn't do it then I've found from experience that the second hit usually gets them thinking "oh ****!" and they let go and try to back away to protect that spot.
Question was asked if a knee shot ended a fight. For me it has, in one altercation. I got knocked to the ground with the guy standing over me, he stepped in range and bent over to start pummeling me to nothingness, (I'm on my left side) I thought of kicking upwards to his groin but saw the left knee was straight and had his weight on it, so I lashed out with a snap kick and hit the knee cap dead on, there was a loud pop... followed by silence, then a thud and a long scream. Seems this guy had previous knee problems (possible football injury?) and well... he's out, gone, end of the matter. I left him there.
Go for the knee, you may discover the guy might have had prior problems with it like I did. Even if you miss, it puts you into either an inside step for YOUR knee to go up to the groin or an outside step for your knee to go for that hip joint.

 

[Aikicomp]

I teach that the knees (among many others) are primary targets (In the right situations). There are targets all over the body and all of them are viable in the right application. The human body is a weak vessle (relatively) and as martial artists we are trained to exploit these weaknesses.

There are no best targets. You must choose which target is most vulnerable in any situation and choose the best available target with the proper application of technique at the given time to achieve the most beneficial result.

To say or think that the knee is not the best target for self defense is very odd and in all honesty it is quite the opposite.

In the right situation a kick to the knee can end an altercation instantly and destroy a person's ability to walk normally for the rest of their life. If done to a point of major hyper-extention (from the front) or if from the sides it will cause a massive amount of damage, ranging from a minor dislocation to major trauma to connective tissues and structures and may even force amputation. ( Not sure on the amputation but it seems possible. If there are any medical people here maybe they can clarify)

The knee is a very weak part of the body and if attacked with the right technique at the right time it can have devastating results for the attacker.

So, to the OP. Do not write the knees off as non viable targets, they are anything but.

Michael

 

[Ironcrane]

During free sparring or full contract/self defense?

Forward moving linear kicks ... or roundhouses to the sides of the knees?

(Based on full-contract sports, I submit that MOST kickers do not connect with enough force to end a conflict even after over a dozen roundhouse kicks to the side of the knee area).

Provide specific examples along with descriptions of the results.

Fully awake now, and not rushing to get to work on time so I'll try to be more specific. I'm less of an expert on knee kicks then I sounded. I use a forward moving linear side kick. More of a hoping, jamming side kick with my hip put into it. I use it during free sparing, and self defense practice, but I always hold back on the kick.

One of my roommates once kicked an attacker in the knee, and after he encountered that guy again, he was walking around with a cane.

And I actually have a hard time using it in sparing, because I use it as a counter attack, and pretty much all my partners are defensive. But what happens is, when my sparing partner advances on me, the knee kick stops them right in their tracks. Also when punches come after my head, throwing that jamming side kick will bring my head out of reach, while I can still reach them.