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puunui

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Sir in your valued view, why did this event fall short?
What if anything could have made it better?


New president came in with his own ideas. But there are things in the works that I can't really talk about.
 

KarateMomUSA

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New president came in with his own ideas. But there are things in the works that I can't really talk about.
That is fair enough & something that I can respect.
If & when possible, please share with readers of this forum, as I am sure many, myself included would love to know more. Thank you again.
 

bluewaveschool

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It's not for the junior to determine whether a senior is worthy of respect or not, especially within the same school.

We'll have to disagree on this then. Those men showed up to puff up their own egos, they didn't care about the kids. My instructors are on notice that if they were to show up again, the room is to be cleared of all students so there can be a nice 'chat'.
 

dancingalone

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What a curious thought.

Not so unusual in Asian culture. I am Asian American. I was brought up to respect my elders in all cases. Their behavior had nothing to do with it and I frequently had to bite my tongue even when I disagreed with something some of my father's friends and associates said or did.

<shrugs>

I am sure my son will be pleased I choose to raise him as an American. The old ways can be difficult to follow.
 

chrispillertkd

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There is a difference between courtesy and respect, at least somewhat, I would say. You should certainly be courteous to everyone. I've seen some pretty senior people in Taekwon-Do treat others discourteously but the "junior" they belittled held a higher position than them in a non-martial arts context (a doctor, for instance). It would be so much simpler if people were just polite to one another.

The obligation to respect someone is a bit more complex. Certainly everyone deserves a certain level of respect simply because they are persons and human nature carries an inherent worth to it. So to say someone isn't obligated to respect another without some sort of qualification is, as I said before, a curious thought.

Pax,

Chris
 

dancingalone

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Certainly everyone deserves a certain level of respect simply because they are persons and human nature carries an inherent worth to it. So to say someone isn't obligated to respect another without some sort of qualification is, as I said before, a curious thought.


And yet that was precisely the expectation my parents had for me. Age trumped everything else. This was pretty standard fare in the immigrant community we were a part of, and I've seen the same behavior across multiple Eastern nationalities.
 

chrispillertkd

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And yet that was precisely the expectation my parents had for me. Age trumped everything else. This was pretty standard fare in the immigrant community we were a part of, and I've seen the same behavior across multiple Eastern nationalities.

Oh, I'm not saying age, or seniority in an MA context, isn't important. But to say that it's not up to the junior to decide whether or not the senior deserves respect is odd, IMNSHO.

I was able to have dinner with GM Choi, Jung Hwa about a year ago at a seminar and he pointed out that while it's right for the junior to show respect and courtesy to the senior the senior had the obligation to look out for the interests of the junior. It was an interesting discussion, I thought, about something many seniors seem quite willing to overlook.

Pax,

Chris
 
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puunui

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We'll have to disagree on this then. Those men showed up to puff up their own egos, they didn't care about the kids. My instructors are on notice that if they were to show up again, the room is to be cleared of all students so there can be a nice 'chat'.


I never said that what your seniors were doing was right. It is an art to handle seniors respectfully even when they do questionable things, an art that few Americans have bothered to learn.

I'll give you an example of different approaches. President Sang Lee served as the US National Head Coach from 1977-88. He never protested a match, except for one time. If there was a questionable call, he generally would not say anything. I heard that there was one particular match where the decision obviously went the wrong way. President Lee got up from his chair, and bowed a very deep bow to all four corner judges and the Head Table and respectfully walked away.

Contrast Jean Lopez who throws water bottles across the ring when he disagrees, or David Askinas, who gets up and starts swearing and giving the finger to the judges at WTF International Events.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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What if the seniors have proven themselves unworthy of respect? I know of 3 3rd Dans of my school, people that in theory I could learn something from, that have been banned from stepping foot inside the dojang by 2 2nd Dan. Bans that I will uphold should I ever see any of those men try to come into my class. Those men showed up randomly a few times and tried to force the people that had been teaching the class, whose names were on the books at the Y as the instructors, to hand things over because they were higher rank. Mind you, these guys hadn't been around but maybe once a year at best, and were poorly thought of by my own instructors. But they were our seniors.
If they were banned from setting foot in the dojang, then it begs the question as to whether or not they are still considered to be your seniors. Why were they banned?

Daniel
 

bluewaveschool

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Let's see...

Being dicks in general, taking advantage of various students over the years during 'friendly' training, flat out trying to walk in and take the class, bringing over their 'class' of MMA wanna be grown men and challenging our class full of kids to a night of sparring, humiliating a 16 yr old BB when the kid was the only instructor there (the guy that did that hadn't be around in TWO years), talking a lot of crap about how they should be running the class (again, hadn't been around in forever, why trust it to them). When they did show up, they would stand together in the corner and try and look down on everyone else. The last time they were seen was when they brought up their class for sparring, 3 of the BBs of my class invited them to spar the 3 of them... with the security cameras turned off.

Same offer will be made next time they show up. I preach avoid fighting, but these guys pretty much ask for a fight every time they show up.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Let's see...

Being dicks in general, taking advantage of various students over the years during 'friendly' training, flat out trying to walk in and take the class, bringing over their 'class' of MMA wanna be grown men and challenging our class full of kids to a night of sparring, humiliating a 16 yr old BB when the kid was the only instructor there (the guy that did that hadn't be around in TWO years), talking a lot of crap about how they should be running the class (again, hadn't been around in forever, why trust it to them). When they did show up, they would stand together in the corner and try and look down on everyone else. The last time they were seen was when they brought up their class for sparring, 3 of the BBs of my class invited them to spar the 3 of them... with the security cameras turned off.

Same offer will be made next time they show up. I preach avoid fighting, but these guys pretty much ask for a fight every time they show up.
If they are asking for it then deny them.

If they are banned from the school then they are not seniors. They are individuals who no longer are associated with the school. If they have been banned from the grounds, then their presence is trespassing. If they trespass and try to pick fights, call the police, as what they are doing is against the law.

As for the junior/senior thing, they are no longer your seniors, as they have been expelled from the school.

Daniel
 

bluewaveschool

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I THINK two of them are on the 'unofficial' banned from the Y list, one for supposedly always having a handgun in his gym bad, and the other got sexual harassment claims brought to the board on him. So they can't get passed the front desk anyways.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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I THINK two of them are on the 'unofficial' banned from the Y list, one for supposedly always having a handgun in his gym bad, and the other got sexual harassment claims brought to the board on him. So they can't get passed the front desk anyways.
As I said, no longer your seniors.

Daniel
 

andyjeffries

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humiliating a 16 yr old BB when the kid was the only instructor there

Whoah! Your school lets 16 year olds run the class without an adult supervising? I know things are different in America, but in England I'm fairly sure you'd get most parents pulling their kids out of the class permanently if that happened...
 

chrispillertkd

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They're still your seniors if they outrank you.

But they obviously have done nothing to earn your respect and, much to the contrary, have worked very hard at demonstrating why they don't deserve it. Be courteous as you tell them they are unwelcome and that their desire to have the school turned over to them is simply not going to happen (especially since they've been banned from the Y where you teach!). Repeated trespassing on Y property by people who have been banned could result in the police being called and charges being pressed.

Pax,

Chris
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Whoah! Your school lets 16 year olds run the class without an adult supervising? I know things are different in America, but in England I'm fairly sure you'd get most parents pulling their kids out of the class permanently if that happened...
I don't think that it was a case of the school allowing sixteen year olds to run the school so much as the sixteen year old being the only one left.

Daniel
 

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