"The" ITF

[puunui]

The ITF teaches one to exhale from the abdomen while executing a technique.

Which ITF are you talking about? There are so many organizations at this point claiming to be "the" ITF. I haven't been really following what each group is doing, but I would think that "the" ITF would be the one led by the person General Choi endorsed as the next ITF President, which is Mr. Chang Ung and North Korea.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Which ITF are you talking about? There are so many organizations at this point claiming to be "the" ITF. I haven't been really following what each group is doing, but I would think that "the" ITF would be the one led by the person General Choi endorsed as the next ITF President, which is Mr. Chang Ung and North Korea.

FWIW General Choi "endorsed" different people at different times. This included naming a senior VP who was elected and who would take the place of the President in the event of his disability. That was in the beginning of 2000, and in 2001 at an IIC in Newfoundland he was endorsing his son. Then in NK in whatever medical condition he purportedly endorsed someone else. There was an something posted on the net, purportedly something written by an ITF Senior (Who later resigned from ITF N) that he later felt the person next to General Choi on his deathbed, a person from NK had liedabout what General Choi said . (I know, hard to believe they might lie.) Unfortunately i have been unable to locate that item again.

So, Glenn, you and I will agree to disagree as to whether any claim of an endoresement or actual endoresment would or should supersede characteristics of who comprises "The" ITF.

Now, as far as technical differences between the largest groups (NK, Son, Original/Vienna, General Choi BD followers. ) go, they are there, but still nominal (IMO).

 

[puunui]

FWIW General Choi "endorsed" different people at different times. This included naming a senior VP who was elected and who would take the place of the President in the event of his disability. That was in the beginning of 2000, and in 2001 at an IIC in Newfoundland he was endorsing his son. Then in NK in whatever medical condition he purportedly endorsed someone else. There was an something posted on the net, purportedly something written by an ITF Senior (Who later resigned from ITF N) that he later felt the person next to General Choi on his deathbed, a person from NK had liedabout what General Choi said . (I know, hard to believe they might lie.) Unfortunately i have been unable to locate that item again.

So three groups with claims, the Senior VP, the Son, and North Korea. Which one was the last endorsement, and were any of these in writing?

So, Glenn, you and I will agree to disagree as to whether any claim of an endoresement or actual endoresment would or should supersede characteristics of who comprises "The" ITF.

I don't have any strong feeling or opinion about the issue, so I wouldn't go so far as to say we disagree. I am just trying to understand and used my thoughts as a starting point of the discussion. I would think that some sort of declaratory action or arbitration proceeding would be helpful in clearing this up. Has there been any moves towards having a legal determination as to which organization is in fact the ITF?

I remember some discussion about this a long time ago, wherein the ITF bylaws favored the Senior VP. However, there was other discussion that implied that General Choi's wishes superceded the bylaws, sort of a probate type approach, like the ITF was an estate asset since it was effectively his private organization which he owned and derived all of the profits from.

Now, as far as technical differences between the largest groups (NK, Son, Original/Vienna, General Choi BD followers. ) go, they are there, but still nominal (IMO).

So the different groups sort of just ignore each other and coexist? Which group do you belong to, and why?

 

[Earl Weiss]

So three groups with claims, the Senior VP, the Son, and North Korea. Which one was the last endorsement, and were any of these in writing?




I don't have any strong feeling or opinion about the issue, so I wouldn't go so far as to say we disagree. I am just trying to understand and used my thoughts as a starting point of the discussion. I would think that some sort of declaratory action or arbitration proceeding would be helpful in clearing this up. Has there been any moves towards having a legal determination as to which organization is in fact the ITF?

I remember some discussion about this a long time ago, wherein the ITF bylaws favored the Senior VP. However, there was other discussion that implied that General Choi's wishes superceded the bylaws, sort of a probate type approach, like the ITF was an estate asset since it was effectively his private organization which he owned and derived all of the profits from.




So the different groups sort of just ignore each other and coexist? Which group do you belong to, and why?

The only "written endorsement" was what was memorialized at a "Special Congress" in Vienna in 2001. That was only an "If the president was unable to serve thing." I do not know of any other writings. There were many public endorsements of his son. As far as i knew the NK guy was a surprise to anyone outside NK.

There have neen lots of messy legal wranglings. I believe the ITF V has won some. Not sure where it stands.

I am not in a position to know how much they acknowledge or ignore each other.

I was withe the ITF since 1974 and an instructor plaqueholder continuously since 1991, in 2003 renewing my dues with ITF V and maintaining them thru 2009.
In 2010 they refused to accept my dues and process any more dan applications. The ITF V stated that there were new by laws prohibiting ITF membership by anyone belonging to another non ITF TKD org. As a result USTF members were no longer eligible to be ITF members and since I was a USTF member that I would have to choose between the two. I chose the USTF.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

The ITF V stated that there were new by laws prohibiting ITF membership by anyone belonging to another non ITF TKD org.

Very unfortunate that. What if you were also an instructor in WTF/KKW TKD?

 

[miguksaram]

The only "written endorsement" was what was memorialized at a "Special Congress" in Vienna in 2001. That was only an "If the president was unable to serve thing." I do not know of any other writings.

I am curious. Did ITF, while Choi was around, have elections to determine the President of the organization?

 

[chrispillertkd]

I am curious. Did ITF, while Choi was around, have elections to determine the President of the organization?

GM Choi, Jung Hwa was elected in 2001 in Rimini, Italy while Gen. Choi was still alive. I wasn't there but, IIRC, he said he wouldn't run against his father and was only elected after Gen. Choi retired. Gen. Choi agreed to serve an additional two years and then his son would take over (this was also voted on and the then legal consul of the ITF stated it was within the bounds of the ITF constitution due to parlimentarian procedure).

Shortly after being elected GM Choi told the North Koreans that he welcomed them as a member nation of the ITF but that they would weild no undue political influence over the organization. Some people weren't too happy about this. Lots of pressure brought to bear on other people.

Gen. Choi then states that because of an impending ITF-WTF merger he would stay on as head of the ITF for a full six year term. GM Choi publicizes a communique from the Secretary General of the WTF saying there were no unification talks between the two organizations. This understandably irritates people to no end. GM Choi (and several of his supporters) are unceremoniously expelled from the ITF. GM Choi points out that this expulsion didn't follow the ITF's constitutonal procedure and so sets up a parallel executive in Canada as Acting President.

Meanwhile, Gen. Choi's health continues to deteriorate die to stomach cancer. He petitions both NK and SK to be allowed to enter the country basically to die. SK refuses, NK accepts. He goes to Pyongyang and enters a hospital. Several of his supporters witness him appointing Prof. Chang Ung, a NK IOC member, as next ITF President. Some supporters who were there have come out and said Gen. Choi was speaking very quietly and a NK interpreter was telling them what he said but none of them have disputed this appointment.

100 days after Gen. Choi's death there is a memorial service for the General. The ITF representatives who go to the memorial find themselves suddenlly the members of a "Special Congress" that is called to elect Prof. Chang Ung. There are disputes about whether or not there are enough members present for a legitimate quorum. There was certainly no advanced notice such as is called for in the ITF constitution. There are also people who have said that the election consisted of GM Rhee, Ki Ha intriducing Prof. Ung and the ITF members clapping as he was introduced and that was taken as unanimous consent of his election. Understandably, this iritates some people, so...

The ITF delegates return home and many of them decide that since this "Special Congress" wasn't in following with the ITF constitution they would have their own election at the World Championships that were to soon follow (though it should be pointed out that they were quite willing to accept the expulsion of GM Choi even though it didn't follow the procedures set out in the ITF constitution). In the interim Senior VP Russell MacClellan served as Acting President. At the WC a few months later GM Tran, Trieu Quan is elected the President of this group.

The rest is, as they say, history.

Pax,

Chris

 

[miguksaram]

GM Choi, Jung Hwa was elected in 2001 in Rimini, Italy while Gen. Choi was still alive.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I meang Gen. Choi. Was he continually elected? Did any other members challenge his position for President of ITF?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I meang Gen. Choi. Was he continually elected? Did any other members challenge his position for President of ITF?

I am unaware of anyone who ran against him while he was alive. But even if they had I can't imagine him not winning in a landslide anyway

I will say this, in his autobiography, Gen. Choi specifies several different people who was considering as his successor as ITF President at different points. The only one that got the final nod who was mentioned in the book was GM Choi, Jung Hwa.

Prof. Chang Ung may have been known to the General but his appointment came as a real surprise to pretty much everyone, as far as I can see. I seem to recall Chang Ung posting an internet notice to the effect that he would only hold one term in office but is now on his second term (and the message to that effect is no longer on the ITF-NK web site).

GM Tran was not mentioned in the autobiography but was elected by those ITF members who didn't agree with Chang Ung's appointment but were OK with GM Choi's expulsion. I am unaware of him actually running against anyone in his election, however (I believe Mr. MacClellan stepped down at the election.)

Master Weiss, do you know of anyone who ever ran against Gen. Choi while he was alive?

Pax,

Chris

 

[Earl Weiss]

Master Weiss, do you know of anyone who ever ran against Gen. Choi while he was alive?

Pax,

Chris

Every two years at the world Champs there was a congress and General Choi was elected. As far as I know he was always unopposed. I was in Rimini and spoke with people who were at the congress.

Info I rec'd was that someone nominated the son to run against the father which made for an uncomfortable situation. This situation was purportedly resolved by electing General Choi for a two year term and electing the son to succeed him at the end of the two years which was something not provided for by the constitution but it would have at least set the stage for an prrderly transition.

The spit hit the fan soon after.

 

[miguksaram]

Did any of the American schools keep their ties with ITF-NK or did everyone pretty much Stay with ITF-Vienna or just stay with Sereff's USTF?

 

[chrispillertkd]

I don't know exact numbers but I would say that ITF-NK got the smallest number of school after the fall out. Literally a handfull.

Most likely, the USTF had the most due to many members simply retaining their membership, followed by ITF-V and then ITF-C.

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

The ITF V stated that there were new by laws prohibiting ITF membership by anyone belonging to another non ITF TKD org. As a result USTF members were no longer eligible to be ITF members and since I was a USTF member that I would have to choose between the two. I chose the USTF.

I thought the USTF went independent and wasn't a part of any of the organizations that call themselves the ITF. I want to say I read something from GM Sereff to the effect that he wasn't going to be a part of the North Korean ITF. But I am thinking that USTF allowed you to join one of the ITFs if you wanted to. Is that correct? Are you look to any of the other ITFs to join for dan promotion purposes?

I saw a dan certificate signed by GM CHOI Jung Hwa and his signature looked incredibly similar to General Choi's. I don't know if his signature always looked like that, or if he made it like that to look like his father's.

 

[puunui]

I am curious. Did ITF, while Choi was around, have elections to determine the President of the organization?

I would think that any elections while General Choi was alive would be a mere formality. It was, after all, his organization and he could do whatever he wanted with it.

Sometimes those things can backfire though. GM HWANG Kee for example, set up the Moo Duk Kwan as a democratic organization, where a board of directors voted on policy matters. In the beginning, everyone pretty much followed GM Hwang's lead; however, during the 1960's, when Taekwondo was attempting to unify under the KTA, GM Hwang held great hostility towards General Choi and did not want to participate in anything that General Choi was a part of. So the Moo Duk Kwan board of directors voted to go forward with the unification without GM Hwang. This caused the infamous split between the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and the Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan. At that point, I think GM Hwang felt that the Moo Duk Kwan was his and they had to follow him. But it was too late at that point.

 

[puunui]

The ITF representatives who go to the memorial find themselves suddenlly the members of a "Special Congress" that is called to elect Prof. Chang Ung. There are disputes about whether or not there are enough members present for a legitimate quorum. There was certainly no advanced notice such as is called for in the ITF constitution. There are also people who have said that the election consisted of GM Rhee, Ki Ha intriducing Prof. Ung and the ITF members clapping as he was introduced and that was taken as unanimous consent of his election. Understandably, this iritates some people, so...

I believe Mr. CHANG Ung's last name is Chang, not Ung.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I thought the USTF went independent and wasn't a part of any of the organizations that call themselves the ITF. .......

But I am thinking that USTF allowed you to join one of the ITFs if you wanted to. Is that correct? ........................

Are you look to any of the other ITFs to join for dan promotion purposes?

.

True.

Correct. So long as all requirements of the USTF were adhred to.

No.

 

[bluewaveschool]

So USTF does the original Choi forms? Hmmm....

 

[Earl Weiss]

So USTF does the original Choi forms? Hmmm....

I am not sure if this is a rhetorical or real question.

If real, please elaborate and I will attempt to answer. If not, forgive my naivete.

 

[terryl965]

I am confused a litlle here, I was told we needed to stop seperateing TKD and keep it all under one umbella, I dis-agree of course and yet here we are seperateing them. I was told all TKD is basically the same, I know it is not but I find it funny that one would tell me this and then post on a thread about it being different, double standards maybe.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I am not sure if this is a rhetorical or real question.

If real, please elaborate and I will attempt to answer. If not, forgive my naivete.

I did not realize that the USTF used the same form set that I know/practice. Nothing more, nothing less. I've put on hold my search for a 'home org', I did find someone to work out with but physically I'm farther out than I thought I was. I may ask you down the road for some info, but it's not something I'll need in the forseeable future.