"The" ITF

[bluewaveschool]

I don't think that it was a case of the school allowing sixteen year olds to run the school so much as the sixteen year old being the only one left.

Daniel

Normally, a 16yr old BB, I wouldn't let teach without supervision. But there are people that are exceptions to the rule, and that kid was one. He had the respect of every kid and adult in the room, and had been in the school for about 8 years, wasn't like he was barely a BB. Most technically proficient artist I've ever seen too. He normally wasn't by himself, the main instructor that was supposed to be there that night couldn't make it for some reason.

I'm not sure humiliating is the right word. The guy came in and was very critical of everything he was teaching, mad because he didn't teach in Korean, generally making an *** of himself. Kid was better than him, guy was just an rank snob, no one under him was good enough.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Normally, a 16yr old BB, I wouldn't let teach without supervision. But there are people that are exceptions to the rule, and that kid was one. He had the respect of every kid and adult in the room, and had been in the school for about 8 years, wasn't like he was barely a BB. Most technically proficient artist I've ever seen too. He normally wasn't by himself, the main instructor that was supposed to be there that night couldn't make it for some reason.

I'm not sure humiliating is the right word. The guy came in and was very critical of everything he was teaching, mad because he didn't teach in Korean, generally making an *** of himself. Kid was better than him, guy was just an rank snob, no one under him was good enough.

In other words, we're not talking about a sixteen year old head instructor or 'running the school.' We're talking about a sixteen year old assistant instructor with eight years of practice who ended up teaching alone once because the head instructor couldn't make it in that night for some reason.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

In other words, we're not talking about a sixteen year old head instructor or 'running the school.' We're talking about a sixteen year old assistant instructor with eight years of practice who ended up teaching alone once because the head instructor couldn't make it in that night for some reason.

I still don't think it would wash over here. I understand it, but parents are particularly fussy in the UK (and so are the halls we hire - we have to be a UK registered instructor with an Enhanced Criminal Records Bureau check to teach classes with children in them) so leaving their children under the care of a 16 year old would legally dubious and they certainly wouldn't be happy.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I still don't think it would wash over here. I understand it, but parents are particularly fussy in the UK (and so are the halls we hire - we have to be a UK registered instructor with an Enhanced Criminal Records Bureau check to teach classes with children in them) so leaving their children under the care of a 16 year old would legally dubious and they certainly wouldn't be happy.

We don't have such registration requirements in the states, so that would not be an issue.

Since martial arts classes are not considered daycare (the parents are generally not asked to leave), the regulations that normally apply to daycare centers do not apply to MA schools.

Given that this was a one time incident apprently, it probably would not raise many eyebrows here, if any. From what Bluewaveschool is saying, the sixteen year old is normally assisting an adult instructor, which again, should not be problematic.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

We don't have such registration requirements in the states, so that would not be an issue.

I must admit I'm surprised - our US cousins are often more litigious than us in the UK, so I'm surprised it's not "regulated-up" more than us to ensure you are following the lines.

To become a British Registered Instructor you have to go along a listen for a day on the legal ramifications of what we do and basically how to CYA. You don't need to know a single Taekwondo movement to be able to do the course and pass.

Since martial arts classes are not considered daycare (the parents are generally not asked to leave), the regulations that normally apply to daycare centers do not apply to MA schools.

We don't generally ask parents to leave, but most do

Given that this was a one time incident apprently, it probably would not raise many eyebrows here, if any. From what Bluewaveschool is saying, the sixteen year old is normally assisting an adult instructor, which again, should not be problematic.

I agree, I was assisting with teaching before 16 years old and have done so ever since. This is not meant as a slight on the 16 year old in question, it was just meant as a discussion of how operating a school works differently between our two countries (and indeed any instructors from other countries, feel free to pip up with your thoughts).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I must admit I'm surprised - our US cousins are often more litigious than us in the UK, so I'm surprised it's not "regulated-up" more than us to ensure you are following the lines.

Americans tend to be resistant to overregulation until either some disaster occurrs which forces it or special intererests push it through. Some aspects of our nation are overregulated and other areas not regulated enough. Some things are left to the individual states, so as a consequence, some things are heavilly regulated in certain parts of the country and hardly glanced at in others.

To become a British Registered Instructor you have to go along a listen for a day on the legal ramifications of what we do and basically how to CYA. You don't need to know a single Taekwondo movement to be able to do the course and pass.

Some states may require some kind of registration, but I don't think that any require a course. There is no national requirement of that sort, however.

We don't generally ask parents to leave, but most do

Same at our school, though I haven't decided if that is a boon or a bane.

I agree, I was assisting with teaching before 16 years old and have done so ever since. This is not meant as a slight on the 16 year old in question, it was just meant as a discussion of how operating a school works differently between our two countries (and indeed any instructors from other countries, feel free to pip up with your thoughts).

It is always good insight to see how things are done outside of one's own homeland. Definitely gives perspective.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

They're still your seniors if they outrank you.

Here's a question: do they still outrank him? From what I understand, the school is independent, so rank is only valid within the school. If they are no longer members of the school and have been banned from entry, is their rank still valid?

Note: I do not mean time in practice or general skill, whatever it may be; that is independent of rank.

Daniel

 

[chrispillertkd]

Here's a question: do they still outrank him? From what I understand, the school is independent, so rank is only valid within the school. If they are no longer members of the school and have been banned from entry, is their rank still valid?

IIRC, bluewaveschool said they were third dans and he is a second dan. Even if it's "only" a school certificate they'd still out rank him unless their rank was specifically stripped from them, IMO. If this isn't the case then I can't understand why they were showing up "demanding" anything in the first place. Even if they are senior to him their actions are pathetic and indicate a real lack of character.

I don't know how common a practice that is across the Taekwon-Do world but in almost 25 years I know of only one person who was demoted in rank and one who was stripped of rank but different schools or organizations might do things differently.

The whole question of whether their rank is valid now that they no longer train is an interesting one and depends on what rank is an indicator of (stupid sentence ending proposition!).

Note: I do not mean time in practice or general skill, whatever it may be; that is independent of rank.

Daniel

Indeed.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

lI figured I would break this off to its own thread here http://www.martialtalk.com//forum/showthread.php?t=92684, as it really is not related to the OP.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Not so unusual in Asian culture. I am Asian American. I was brought up to respect my elders in all cases. Their behavior had nothing to do with it and I frequently had to bite my tongue even when I disagreed with something some of my father's friends and associates said or did.

Not only in Asian culture but American culture as well. Older brothers give their younger brothers a hard time. Does that mean that the older brother is not worthy of the younger brother's respect? How about when seniors at a frathouse haze freshmen? Or when a drill sargeant "mistreats" a recruit in boot camp? What should the recruit do in that situation? You're convicted of a crime you didn't commit and the judge at your sentencing speaks very sternly to you in meting out your punishment. Should you start yelling and swearing at the judge, saying that the judge is not worthy of respect? You're at a tournament and a match that you feel you won goes to the other competitor. Is it ok to yell, swear, or give the finger to the referees and throw your water bottle across the ring because they "disrespected" you by not giving you something you felt you deserved? You ask for a promotion, and your instructor declines, saying you are not ready. Should you start posting on the internet about what a terrible person you instructor is?

 

[andyjeffries]

Americans tend to be resistant to overregulation until either some disaster occurrs which forces it or special intererests push it through. Some aspects of our nation are overregulated and other areas not regulated enough. Some things are left to the individual states, so as a consequence, some things are heavilly regulated in certain parts of the country and hardly glanced at in others.

I often find it weird that you are treated internationally as one country but act internally like a collection of different states. I remember last time we were in Florida my Brother-in-law was there as well from New York and he was saying about how some states have "right on red" rules regarding traffic lights. That is weird, you can do something completely legal in one state, cross a boundary and do something completely normal that is illegal (while still being in the same country).

It's quirky, but I like it.

It is always good insight to see how things are done outside of one's own homeland. Definitely gives perspective.

Absolutely. We have some parts I'm sure would seem weird to the outside-UK world too

 

[chrispillertkd]

I often find it weird that you are treated internationally as one country but act internally like a collection of different states.

That's exactly what the U.S. is, a collection of states that form a federal body. The states don't exist because the federal government divied up the land, the federal government exists because the states united.

Pax,

Chris

 

[andyjeffries]

That's exactly what the U.S. is, a collection of states that form a federal body. The states don't exist because the federal government divied up the land, the federal government exists because the states united.

But internationally you are viewed as a single country and it's often easy to forget that you have different taxes and laws in different states.

We would say "I want to do more business in America" but would find it odd if we said "I want to do more business in Europe" because over here we know Europe is a bunch of countries with different laws and tax levels (and currencies and languages but that's different).

I love the diversity, but it's still weird