The Importance Of Stance Training

[mook jong man]

Whoa.....sphincter? Somebody tell the Korean stylist(me) all about this regarding stances. What does it mean? How can I apply it to Hapkido?

In our lineage it is called Tei Gong.
Relax , back straight , Tei Gong , that is the mantra.
It is a physical and mental thing , if you want to get all esoteric it is thought to facilitate the flow of "Nim Lik" (Thought Force) up the spine and out to the limbs.

It is developed mainly by doing the Siu Nim Tao form for many years.
I don't think you could apply it to Hapkido , you could try it , but I don't believe it would work quite the same way.
A lot of it has to do also with the back being straight and the feet being parallel and focused towards the centerline.

In other words you would have to adopt a Wing Chun stance , and then you wouldn't be doing Hapkido anymore would you?
You might as well just do Wing Chun.

This is why trying to take something from one martial art and trying to bolt it on to another martial art often times does not work because they are just too incompatible.
Once the stance is changed then it's doubtful that anything will work as it should.

 

[yak sao]

Since we're back on the sphincter thing, I'd like a few clarifications myself.
I've done a bit of chi kung and it was addressed there, but I've never heard it addressed in SNT in our lineage....not saying it isn't there, just that I haven't been taught it.

Is it a matter of tightening the gleuts or is it more specific? If I try to tighten the "don't poop" muscles, I can't hold them for any length of time before they themselves get pooped.
Is it more of a mental focus thing?

My apol;ogies to those who are reading this over dinner.

 

[WC_lun]

Cock the hips forward. It straightens the spine and locks things into place. Notice this does not mean you cannot move or are static. However, it helps move the body as an entire unit. It also helps stop that pesky habit of coming up too high in a stance, straightening out the knees. It is an integral part of having structure.


It is not peculiar to just a "wing chun stance." In fact, I learned it when I was in Tai Chi, long before I started Wing Chun. I really do not know of a stance it should not be used in. Although, to be fair, it might impede some ways of kicking, as I have seen it done by TKD and Hapkido friends.

If you talk to Chinese martal artist, you might hear a lot of esoteric stuff about the benefits of this. Whether you believe in that stuff or not, it really doesn't make a difference. Techniques with body unity are going to be much stronger than techniques without it. That's all you really need to know. If the esoteric stuff is true, it'll fall into place naturally.

 

[mook jong man]

Since we're back on the sphincter thing, I'd like a few clarifications myself.
I've done a bit of chi kung and it was addressed there, but I've never heard it addressed in SNT in our lineage....not saying it isn't there, just that I haven't been taught it.

Is it a matter of tightening the gleuts or is it more specific? If I try to tighten the "don't poop" muscles, I can't hold them for any length of time before they themselves get pooped.
Is it more of a mental focus thing?

My apol;ogies to those who are reading this over dinner.

It's part of the Tsui Seung Tin method I don't know if anybody else does it.

It is just a very slight tightening of the anus , not too much , and also visualize that your anus is lined up through the spine to the very top of your head.
When practicing the form you should also visualize the energy flowing up your spine to the top of your head.

As I said , it is a physical and mental thing.
It's also the way that TST uses to get students to focus on this area.
As time goes on in training it becomes just a mental thing , completely automatic and does not need to be strictly adhered to anymore.

According to TST , at the very higher levels of Wing Chun skill the horse stance is not even needed anymore to produce power.

But I'm afraid that's a long , long way down the track for most of us mere mortals.

 

[dancingalone]

It's part of the Tsui Seung Tin method I don't know if anybody else does it.

Yes. The idea is found in Goju-ryu karate as well, doubtlessly it came from the Southern Chinese link.

 

[yak sao]

I honestly don't know much about Tsui Seung Tin....did all of his WC come from Yip Man or did he have previous training from another sifu? And/or did he have other kung fu that he trained in where this idea may have developed from?
If all his training came from Yip Man, then even if it's not part of the other lineages, that means the other lineages are leaving out a crucial point.

 

[mook jong man]

I honestly don't know much about Tsui Seung Tin....did all of his WC come from Yip Man or did he have previous training from another sifu? And/or did he have other kung fu that he trained in where this idea may have developed from?
If all his training came from Yip Man, then even if it's not part of the other lineages, that means the other lineages are leaving out a crucial point.

Apparently he did Tai Chi for a little while when he was young but decided it was not for him.
All his Wing Chun came from Yip Man as far as I know.

According to him Wing Chun is unique in this method of generating force from the stance.

It is said by quite a few people that he teaches "Internal Wing Chun" but I just think it is the way that it was always meant to be taught.

Whether other people have left it out is not for me to say , this is just the way we do it.

I just have to clarify that you don't tighten the glutes.
Tilt your pelvis up and forward , but not to the point where your glutes and the front of the thighs tense up.
Relaxation of these areas is crucial.

Slightly contract the anus not the glutes , back straight , relax.
Also use a slight clawing action with your toes on the floor , again , not so much that your foot tenses up.
This action increases the surface area of your foot in contact with the ground and makes the stance more stable.

 

[cwk]

We do this "clawing" thing with the toes too. Our tilting of the pelvis is different from most that I see though, our upper body remains completely straight without any leaning or pushing the groin area forward. We flatten our lumbar region, squeeze the inner hip muscles down and in and sink down.

 

[simplewc101]

This whole sphincter thing is actually brought up in the link I posted to the Kung Fu Quest video on wing chun in the thread titled "Cantonese Wing Chun & Sanda Practitioners travel to China"
You guys should check it out. It seems to be Yip Man lineage. I have yet to hear about it from my sifu though. Maybe I'll ask him.

 

[Domino]

Sigung said once he is nickname 'King of Siu Lim Tau'.. you do the maths.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=wing+chun&v=jJX216fiIbs&gl=GB

 

[Eric_H]

Pretty sure Tsui Seung Tin studied the Fu style wudangchuan for a while, don't know exactly what pieces.

 

[Vajramusti]

Apparently he did Tai Chi for a little while when he was young but decided it was not for him.
All his Wing Chun came from Yip Man as far as I know.

According to him Wing Chun is unique in this method of generating force from the stance.

It is said by quite a few people that he teaches "Internal Wing Chun" but I just think it is the way that it was always meant to be taught.

Whether other people have left it out is not for me to say , this is just the way we do it.

I just have to clarify that you don't tighten the glutes.
Tilt your pelvis up and forward , but not to the point where your glutes and the front of the thighs tense up.
Relaxation of these areas is crucial.

Slightly contract the anus not the glutes , back straight , relax.
Also use a slight clawing action with your toes on the floor , again , not so much that your foot tenses up.
This action increases the surface area of your foot in contact with the ground and makes the stance more stable.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
TST is ok. He has his own interpretations of some things. Those titles used in humor- king of slt, king of chi sao-just IM humor at work.
I have rolled with him years ago.
Correct:
don't tighten buttocks.

Joy

 

[onthechin]

Jeez its not a hard thing to say....if you find yourself in close, drop your stance so your knees are bent but you can sttill shuffle around whilst keeping your upper body relaxed and ready to punch. There....said it..

 

[seasoned]

Jeez its not a hard thing to say....if you find yourself in close, drop your stance so your knees are bent but you can sttill shuffle around whilst keeping your upper body relaxed and ready to punch. There....said it..

You sound like a boxer, there, said it...............

 

[bully]

Its a shame to OP didn't come back on to answer any questions. I had a couple I would have liked his pov on.

 

[MJS]

Jeez its not a hard thing to say....if you find yourself in close, drop your stance so your knees are bent but you can sttill shuffle around whilst keeping your upper body relaxed and ready to punch. There....said it..

Do you ever contribute anything useful to the threads or just troll them? There, said it. Just an FYI, this forum has a policy that states trolling is against the rules. You may want to refresh yourself with those rules, before you find yourself banned from here.

 

[Cyriacus]

Jeez its not a hard thing to say....if you find yourself in close, drop your stance so your knees are bent but you can sttill shuffle around whilst keeping your upper body relaxed and ready to punch. There....said it..

Thats also a great way to be taken down, if all Youre doing is bending your knees, dropping your weight, and relaxing your upper body.
Or Pushed.
Or Kicked down.

 

[Zenjael]

There always must be more. So I've found. Let's not attack him- for where he is, and what he does, it may work well.

Do you ever contribute anything useful to the threads or just troll them? There, said it. Just an FYI, this forum has a policy that states trolling is against the rules. You may want to refresh yourself with those rules, before you find yourself banned from here.

I don't think he is trolling, I just think people disagree with his pov. I'd say that he should practice more, with far more experienced people, so he can see how well his stance holds up. I would sweep him in a heartbeat if I found someone in that boxing stance, but who am I to really know if it would work on him or not.

 

[Stylez777]

Hey all this my first post here I had to comment on the post the OP made even though he himself has not been back to defend his statement.

Firstly I have trained in some form of Martial Art since I was 7 years old. I first started in Shotokan Karate and trained for probably 4-5 years obtaining a purple belt with 1 stripe. In high school I joined a Boxing gym and I trained there for another 4 years until I graduated. After a few years away from any type of training I returned to start training in JKD since I always found "Bruce Lee" style interesting but I was forced to cut that short after 2 months because of an injury. After I healed MMA was on the rise so I started training at a few places experiencing BJJ, Muay Thai and other fighting concepts. I did that for 3 years and reinjured my back and was forced to stop. So for the past 4 years I have done nothing and I have recently returned to Martial arts this time training in Wing Chun.

Now that my background is out of the way I can say that MMA is a phenominal sport. Training in any MMA gym will push you to your body's limits and beyond. I have great respect for what these athletes do and their fighting skills are top notch. With that said I digress that it is a "sport" MMA practitioners are not learning how to defend themselves in life or death situations they are training for a cage fight with a certain set of rules that are to be followed. Practitoners of say "Krav Maga, Kajukenbo, Wing Chun" are learning self defense and the preservation of their life in a potential "Mortal Combat" situation. So in theory it's not even comparing Apples-to-Apples.

People who say "Oh an MMA fighter would destroy a Wing Chun Fighter" well what are the circumstances? Are they in cage with rules 5 mintue rounds and scoring? I'd say 98% chance yes. In a life or death fight hmmm not so much. Again I am not trying to say one is better than another. I am just trying to point out a huge difference in both. You could argue that a huge part of MMA is Brazilian Ju-Jitsu which does have many real world applications but even what is taught in MMA gyms of BJJ are with the intent to use in the sport not in a street fight. Think about it, if you take me down or vice versa are we going to sit in guard hand fight or try to pass guard and then you try to armbar or triangle choke me? Am I not going to use anything in my power to stop you? I've been in street fights before, i've used anything to my advantage. I've bitten people, attacked the groin, eyes, ears etc whatever i had to do to win. Again pointing out how it's very different training at work here.

In my first day of Wing Chun training along with learning "stance" which is the foundation from which ANY martial art starts, I was taught 2 "techniques" that could potentially kill an attacker. That is not to say that it should be used to do that, but if I had to I could. Also a simple turn of a hand in a certain direction goes from a seriously painful attack to a death blow (no not "Dim-Mak" I'm talking more about attacks at the face or neck area). Another great little story, that same first day my Sifu asked me to punch him. I asked him "like this? (slowly throwing a weak telagraphed punch). He replied "No attack me for real. Any punch any way. Face body whatever and how ever hard you want." I stupidly said Sifu I don't want to accidently hit you and knock you out. He replied "Trust me, you won't" So I stood there for a few seconds and unloaded a pretty decent right cross at his face (or so I thought). I didn't even see what he did. I was told he took a half step and threw a punch at the back of my hand. My hand hurt SO BAD, I mean seriously I never had my hand hurt so much in my life. Sifu told me he only hit me with about 15% power but went on to explain about a pressure point in the back of the hand that when in a closed fist and hit pretty much forces you to open your hand and the pain is pretty immense. The point being that he could hit this spot on my hand on a punch coming in not knowing where or how i was throwing this punch and the immense pain it caused (The back of my hand was sore for a week). It was a great lesson learned and also made me think more on making someone pay for attacking you. Personally for me I like knowing that if push comes to shove I have the confidence that I can attack quickly and swiftly and end a fight before it even becomes a fight (well that is my goal). Again I feel no martial art should be used to hurt someone on purpose but I firmly believe if you are going to initiate bodly harm upon me I am going to seriously make you pay for that mistake.

So this post became very long but I have respect for every Martial Art on the planet and I feel that no "system" or art" is perfect in any way shape or form. I love talking with people and learning from them what they learned. The whole comparison the OP made I feel is impossible and unmeasureable, the fact he even said Stance is un-important is laughable because one cannot run before they can walk but you cannot do EITHER without first learning how to stand! Thank you for reading my long post and I am happy to have joined this community forum and look forward to posting hopefully short posts in the future

 

[wtxs]

So this post became very long but I have respect for every Martial Art on the planet and I feel that no "system" or art" is perfect in any way shape or form. I love talking with people and learning from them what they learned. The whole comparison the OP made I feel is impossible and unmeasureable, the fact he even said Stance is un-important is laughable because one cannot run before they can walk but you cannot do EITHER without first learning how to stand! Thank you for reading my long post and I am happy to have joined this community forum and look forward to posting hopefully short posts in the future

There is no such thing as too much rambling when you input is positive, an big welcome to you. Looking forward to more of your perspective. :cheers: