The Importance Of Stance Training

[Vajramusti]

Ok Flying Crane, let's get a few things straight here. I never said that stance was simply squatting down. What I did say was that there is far too much emphasis on it--it's one of the criticisms that Bruce Lee had with traditional Chinese martial arts. No amount of training the stance will help you learn about timing, distancing, reading one's opponent or even more importantly muscle memory. You learn to fight by having punches and kicks thrown at you, grabs and locks applied, and repeating this hundreds, if not thousands of times. Understanding how to use strength is of no use, if you don't know how to move, where to block, how to read your opponent etc. I know what I'm talking about. You can hold a stance for hours each day, but your muscle memory and contact sensitivity WILL NOT BE TRAINED. These are some of the reasons that A LOT of kung-fu guys don't do all that well in real fights. In a real fight, it's those attributes which I previously mentioned which count, because your stance becomes disrupted or even worse the fight can be taken to the ground. Now have a look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKRyTSr5Mo&feature=related

If you watch it, you'll realise that the fight goes to the ground. Where is the kung-fu guy's stance once he's on the ground? Once Royce Gracie got close to him, the other guy got flogged. You need to realise Flying Crane, that the empirical evidence of most kung-fu fighters is not that great when they go against guys in the ring. There are exceptions--where I trained with Ian Protheroe, we did a LOT of punches and kicks, drills, actual grabs and holds, how to move, where to position yourself etc. Also, a lot of the stance training, particularly in wing chun, is WRONG. The inverted toe stance gives one insufficient mobility. Many people in martial arts are not particularly bright--they don't stop and think whether something works or not, and just blindly listen.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ignoring the patronizing tone. Your comments on the wing chun stance-show that you probably don't have or know good versions of it, what it used for, how it is related to later devlopment of coordinated footwork. On this list, I suggest a little more politeness in tone.

joy chaudhuri

 

[oaktree]

What I did say was that there is far too much emphasis on it--it's one of the criticisms that Bruce Lee had with traditional Chinese martial arts. No amount of training the stance will help you learn about timing, distancing, reading one's opponent or even more importantly muscle memory

Traditionally there is much emphasis in it and those who teach it have a reason for it. If you disagree with it you are entitled to but if you want to train traditionally in traditional Chinese arts it is what lays the founation. Bruce Lee wrote quite alot on his ideal stance and spoke alot on the proper stance needed in his mind and style
to be effective and efficent. In his book he lays his foundation which is first his JKD stance he then goes into his idea on how to generate power from this stance and how to move in his stance. On the subject of timing, distancing and reading the opponent a student learns this in free form and application. But in order to do well in this you need a foundation.

Understanding how to use strength is of no use, if you don't know how to move, where to block, how to read your opponent etc. I know what I'm talking about.

When a toddler learns to walk it must first learn balance and have a strong stance then when it has learned how to control his balance and has proper strength and coordination then it can walk and start to run.

You can hold a stance for hours each day, but your muscle memory and contact sensitivity WILL NOT BE TRAINED.

Which is why after you can stand and all the wonderful things gained from stance training you move on to the next level of lessons. Learn to sink and root so when you learn free form you do not loose your balance easy, learn to coordinate mind and body and you can move naturally, learn to burn through the pain of stance training you gain will power, inner strength and endurance, learning to root you learn to sink your weight downwards leaving your top lighter so that the legs generate the power to the hips and upward through the arms giving you whole body power as a unit rather then just throwing your arm.

These are some of the reasons that A LOT of kung-fu guys don't do all that well in real fights. In a real fight, it's those attributes which I previously mentioned which count, because your stance becomes disrupted or even worse the fight can be taken to the ground.

Plenty of people who practice Wushu who used their art fine in real fights what ever real fights mean. I am guessing you are thinking of stance training like something you just do right when people fight. How about thinking of stance training similar to squats you do in a gym but with more of a martial application.

Now have a look at this video

The "kungfu" guy shot in and Gracie took him down. But what does this mean that grappling beats striking? a person with no grappling looses to a superior grappler if taken to the ground? I think everyone in the martial art world realize the need to look at how grappling takes place but let me show you now a clip of a taijiquan person
and a grappler:

This is Chen Bing. Does it mean he can not be taken down no but it does show that having a proper foundation in stance training plays an important role.

If you watch it, you'll realise that the fight goes to the ground. Where is the kung-fu guy's stance once he's on the ground? Once Royce Gracie got close to him, the other guy got flogged. You need to realise Flying Crane, that the empirical evidence of most kung-fu fighters is not that great when they go against guys in the ring.

Ah the key here is the RING. The RING and fighting for your life are very different. The Ring implies there are rules and fairness fighting for your life no rules.
If I am ever in a fight for my life maybe I do not use anything I learned from my martial art class and pick up a rock to hit someone in the head with I am observant like that. Cung Le is a Wushu guy he is doing great in the ring actually quite alot of Sanda guys are doing well in the ring but I recall a story about a kick boxer who went after someone who robbed some lady's purse and was shot dead.

There are exceptions--where I trained with Ian Protheroe, we did a LOT of punches and kicks, drills, actual grabs and holds, how to move, where to position yourself etc.

Glad your found a teacher who works for you and others on this site have found what works for them.

Also, a lot of the stance training, particularly in wing chun, is WRONG

I only know 3 Chinese styles (Taijiquan, Baguazhang,Xingyiquan) I would be interested to hear what makes are stance training wrong since we do sp
end alot of time doing them. In Wushu you have Wai kua and Nei kua 外胯内胯 putting your feet more
inwards strengthens the Nei kua area IMO sitting more in Ma bu IMO works more of the Wai kua both are needed usually standing in Zhan Zhuang accomplish a more balance approach but focusing more inner or outer does have its place and I am sure in Wing Chun the more narrow stance and the Nei kua focus more on the principle of the center line.

The inverted toe stance gives one insufficient mobility.

Same can be said if you are in Ma bu with your feet pointing out too. I find Jeet Kun do with the foot pointing back to be akward but if someone likes it and works for them great.

Many people in martial arts are not particularly bright--they don't stop and think whether something works or not, and just blindly listen.

I don't think many people are like this at all. But I guess it depends on your experience and how you see things. Alot of how we see the world is how we think about the world and how we see our selves. I think Simon we will have to agree to disagree good luck in your training.

 

[yak sao]

Groundfighting is not some new invention that originated with the Gracies. When WC was developed back in the late 1600's, give or take a few decades, they too were dealing with groundfighting as a possibility.
The approach they took to it, was the same approach they took to the other fighting ranges....neutralize.
Rather than come up with an extensive groungfighting program to deal with wrestlers, they felt it best to develop an anti grappling approach. Just as they developed an anti kicking approach, etc.

Many get their hackles raised when they see this "anti " term used. They see it as WC is saying that it is immune to going to the ground, or being kicked. It is not that at all. The founders seemed to think that the best way to deal with other styles of fighting was to not play into their opponent's hand, but rather use the strength of their own developed style, wing chun, to their advantage.

A WC fighter is certainly not immune to going to the ground. But if trained properly, a good WC man can prevent much of what a wrestler is trying to do. That said, it still pays to train from the ground, but the approach is not from a grappling perspective, but from the perspectice of fighting to regain your standing posiion.

 

[Danny T]

Stances, in the respect of an actual fight, are fleeting. Moments in time. Stance training and training stance movement can be static or can be with some movement and is in my humble opinion extremely important. I also opine long term repetitive static stance training alone is only one level of stance training. Some stance training is also use with movement. It can be with stepping, sliding, turning, shifting the body weight, against someone pressing into you from the front, back, or sides to list a few possibilities. Still stance training. I train and instruct wing chun and have been doing so for a couple of decades. I also train and instruct muay thai, a well known element in most MMA. Have trained under Ajarn Chai Sirisute of the Thai Boxing Association USA. How much stance work is done. A lot! I would say I have done 'more' stance work in my muay thai training than in my wing chun. I still have the honor of training with Ajarn Chai 3-4 times a year for 4-8 hrs each time and even after the many years of training what is the first thing worked on every time? STANCE! Stance in a static position, stance moving forward, backward, to each side, and turning. Then we work on timing based on stepping front foot - rear foot in the same position for 30 minutes to an hour Every Time. Why? Because it is important. Stance work helps the practitioner learn many things that in time can and will be used in a physical confrontation. Sport and/or self-defense. Things like: focus and attention to detail, balance; strengthening of the legs, feet, and the many joints associated with them, patience, timing of yourself (if you can not time yourself you will never be good at timing the opponent). These are but a few, there is more.

"The inverted toe stance gives one insufficient mobility"

This I agree with but when I am in the inverted toe stance I do not want mobility. I want rooting. There is also a lot of other aspects of training that is attribute development not fight development. Some is for cardio, some is strength, some is agility, some is balance, some is explosiveness, some is for flexibility. There is far more to fight development than just punching and kicking in a sparring action. Stance training is one very important aspect.

Train hard, train smart.

All the best.

 

[Domino]

I would've PM'd Eric myself, not started a thread.
Don't worry about what everyone is doing or thinking so much, I did that not so long ago.
Remember everyones different.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ok Flying Crane, let's get a few things straight here. I never said that stance was simply squatting down. What I did say was that there is far too much emphasis on it--it's one of the criticisms that Bruce Lee had with traditional Chinese martial arts. No amount of training the stance will help you learn about timing, distancing, reading one's opponent or even more importantly muscle memory. You learn to fight by having punches and kicks thrown at you, grabs and locks applied, and repeating this hundreds, if not thousands of times. Understanding how to use strength is of no use, if you don't know how to move, where to block, how to read your opponent etc. I know what I'm talking about. You can hold a stance for hours each day, but your muscle memory and contact sensitivity WILL NOT BE TRAINED. These are some of the reasons that A LOT of kung-fu guys don't do all that well in real fights. In a real fight, it's those attributes which I previously mentioned which count, because your stance becomes disrupted or even worse the fight can be taken to the ground. Now have a look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKRyTSr5Mo&feature=related

If you watch it, you'll realise that the fight goes to the ground. Where is the kung-fu guy's stance once he's on the ground? Once Royce Gracie got close to him, the other guy got flogged. You need to realise Flying Crane, that the empirical evidence of most kung-fu fighters is not that great when they go against guys in the ring. There are exceptions--where I trained with Ian Protheroe, we did a LOT of punches and kicks, drills, actual grabs and holds, how to move, where to position yourself etc. Also, a lot of the stance training, particularly in wing chun, is WRONG. The inverted toe stance gives one insufficient mobility. Many people in martial arts are not particularly bright--they don't stop and think whether something works or not, and just blindly listen.

oh goody you read Bruce Lee's books.

As to ground fighting this arguement has been hashed and rehashed here and it is obvious you are clueless about things CMA so..... :wavey: have a nice day

 

[bully]

Simon, I am interested in the thinking behind the "The inverted toe stance gives one insufficient mobility" statement you made.

What do you mean? In my version of WC the inverted toe stance is a training stance and has no bearing on my mobility as I am in a "fighting" stance when I need to be mobile.

Are you saying that:

A) When in the stance the practitioner has insufficient mobility? I know some lineages use the stance outside of training.

B) By training in it too much we lose mobility in other areas/stances?

 

[onthechin]

Maybe this has been said already, I dont think anyone can blame me for not reading every post to the letter....
Isn't stance (whilst being all important) based on how you fight? If you intend to concentrate on infighting, then having a high stance doesnt make much sense as you're easily put off balance. On the other hand, if you intend to concentrate on kicks - ie. TKD, then maybe a feet closer together stance would be preferable? For WC you want a low stance whilst also retaining mobility..not unlike all the other punching styles out there. Its a different stance to boxing as you kick in WC and you dont have your hands in massive gloves..I think (and only my opinion) that a lowish stance where you shuffle but are also highly mobile, able to T-stance etc is best. I guess with WC you need to remember that your arms/hands are your main weapon, not your feet.

 

[yak sao]

Maybe this has been said already, I dont think anyone can blame me for not reading every post to the letter....
Isn't stance (whilst being all important) based on how you fight? If you intend to concentrate on infighting, then having a high stance doesnt make much sense as you're easily put off balance. On the other hand, if you intend to concentrate on kicks - ie. TKD, then maybe a feet closer together stance would be preferable? For WC you want a low stance whilst also retaining mobility..not unlike all the other punching styles out there. Its a different stance to boxing as you kick in WC and you dont have your hands in massive gloves..I think (and only my opinion) that a lowish stance where you shuffle but are also highly mobile, able to T-stance etc is best. I guess with WC you need to remember that your arms/hands are your main weapon, not your feet.

And this is where we see a lot of these WC guys go wrong in these You tube challenges.
They mimic the other fighter. They either adopt their stance and dance around with them on one extreme, or they stand there motionless waiting for the guy to come to them on the other.
They need to be exploding in as soon as the opportunity presents itself, shutting down the other fighter.
I think the reason we don't see it is because these are "friendly "matches and the WC guy is in essence being too nice, which leads to their downfall.

 

[Cyriacus]

And this is where we see a lot of these WC guys go wrong in these You tube challenges.They mimic the other fighter. They either adopt their stance and dance around with them on one extreme, or they stand there motionless waiting for the guy to come to them on the other.They need to be exploding in as soon as the opportunity presents itself, shutting down the other fighter.I think the reason we don't see it is because these are "friendly "matches and the WC guy is in essence being too nice, which leads to their downfall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH13kYFzfFk

There are other factors, too. This may not be a great example persay, but what Im getting at is that it is easy to be Trained to fight ones own Style. By which I mean, I do not believe this person was expecting that kind of back-moving counter fighting whilst not caring about being struck. This can lead to a "Well crap" type mindset, at which point, the nominal thing to do is change (Like, change from one punching method to a punch then kick, or punch then elbow or something. A change). But that decision can be hard to make when Youre processing different things, which can lead to brief openings. Some Systems are less privy to this. Boxing, for example, is Punching. Theres no exact technically correct methods, more non-literal methods. As such, it is highly adaptable. More methodical punching, however, tends to sometimes come off a bit strangely *at first*. The method doesnt need to change, the Tactic might. And unfortunately, sometimes changing Tactics takes a second.The change shown is, "This is working! Im hitting! I should keep doing it!"; Until He realises it isnt working too well, and changes Tactics. But when He stops for just that moment, and then goes to do something different, Hes intercepted.

The solution?Read My Signature.

Relevance retrospectively? He was transitioning between Stances when He was intercepted.

EDIT: As in, I reckon it would have gone better had He not changed Stance. Thats what rendered Him unstable, and ultimately ended it. Had He just changed tact, but not Stance? It would have been more interesting.Im mostly curious to hear thoughts.

Also, the Site ate My Enter hits, so this is all a bit smushy. Grr.

 

[yak sao]

It all goes back to not suffeciently pressure testing your art. It happens with them all, but let's pick on WC, as that is what I practice.
It is so easy, with WC, to become a theoritician, if that's even a word.
We practice our forms and then practice our chi sau and think we are ready for a street encounter ( or the ring)
If that is all we do we are doing what my old sifu called practicing incest....we only know how to fight against our own style.
Even if we get downright savage with our chi sau ( and lat sau) if we are only practicing against like minded and like fisted bretrhren, then we are in for a rude awakening when our adversary on the street or ring "does it wrong"., then rather than sticking to our guns and fighting our fight, too many times we see the WC man in these videos start fighting the fight of their opponent.
That's why it's so important to cross train against other styles.
We are fortunate in our little group as we have ex wrestlers, BJJ guys, boxers and shaolin guys to play the part of the aggressor.

 

[Cyriacus]

It all goes back to not suffeciently pressure testing your art. It happens with them all, but let's pick on WC, as that is what I practice.
It is so easy, with WC, to become a theoritician, if that's even a word.
We practice our forms and then practice our chi sau and think we are ready for a street encounter ( or the ring)
If that is all we do we are doing what my old sifu called practicing incest....we only know how to fight against our own style.
Even if we get downright savage with our chi sau ( and lat sau) if we are only practicing against like minded and like fisted bretrhren, then we are in for a rude awakening when our adversary on the street or ring "does it wrong"., then rather than sticking to our guns and fighting our fight, too many times we see the WC man in these videos start fighting the fight of their opponent.
That's why it's so important to cross train against other styles.
We are fortunate in our lirrle group as we have ex wrestlers, BJJ guys, boxers and shaolin guys to play the part of the aggressor.

Id argue that Cross-Sparring would work just as well*. I completely agree though**.

*Thats in Agreement with the End.
**And that to the Start and Middle.

 

[yak sao]

Actually, I meant sparring....while I'm not against learning another style for the purpose of cross training, I'm just too freakin' busy.
I think sparring against them is the solution.

 

[mook jong man]

Gee , somebody better tell Tsui Seung Tin and my late Sifu that your not supposed to be able to move well in that inverted toe stance because they didn't get the memo.

I have seen with my own eyes how explosive movement can be from the YCKYM stance , not only explosive but non telegraphic.

I've probably told this story before of seeing my Sifu demo a charging knee , a technique we use when we want to bridge the gap when the opponent is just out of kicking range.

Well if you blinked you would have missed it , in one rapid movement he covered over two meters and stopped with his fist in front of an instructors face , there was no discernible pre movement , one second he was at point A and a nano second later he was at point B.


How can someone move that fast and with such efficiency , with not so much as a small forward lean to signal his intentions to burst forward?

The answer is STANCE TRAINING and a crap load of it.
In all it's forms both static and dynamic .
The YCKYM stance is like anything else it has to be practiced until it becomes an intrinsic part of you , we accomplish this several ways.

Apart from Siu Nim Tao form , in the early days of training the student will simply practice moving forward and back in the stance as fast as they can , and then side to side, diagonal etc.
They will be told to sink their weight to , move from the waist , keep their back straight and thighs relaxed and springy.

As training progresses they learn to move in their stance while doing chi sau and against incoming punches and kicks or grabs, with the emphasis on always moving forward to unbalance the opponent.
It's not rocket science , if you want to be able to move well in your stance , you have to bloody well practice moving around in your stance.... a lot.

There are several very good reasons why we use the YCKYM stance as our fighting stance and some features of it that have to be adhered to in order for it to work optimally, I have explained these before so I probably sound like a broken record , but anyway I will say them again.

The stance is not only external it is internal as well , there is a slight contraction of the sphincter muscle (Tei gong) that must be maintained , it locks the upper and lower body together as one unit which increases force in attacking and defensive motions.

As well as being resistant to pressure from all directions the inverted pidgeon toed stance enables the potential force of the whole body to be focused on the centerline , so that any punch or kick will contain the mass of the whole body.

The pidgeon toed square on stance affords the ability to use the limbs on both sides of the body equally , as well as adding an element of unpredictability in that the opponent does not know which limb will strike him first.
It also enables three limbs to be in operation at the same time , one leg kicking , one arm striking and the other arm controlling the opponents limb.

While a conventional lead leg , one side forward stance will give the user slightly more range , it also means that their body is more susceptible to being pulled to the blind side and having the back of the neck/head/kidneys exposed.

In my opinion this is probably one of the main reasons why Wing Chun adopts a front on stance , the triangular feature of the stance and focus on centerline makes it very resistant to being dragged to the side and having the back of the body vulnerable to attack.

Skeptics will say that the Wing Chun square on stance exposes the groin more than a side on stance , but with a side on stance you can still be kicked in the groin , even from the back.

The advantage of the 50/50 weighted stance used in Wing Chun is that you can jam a groin kick with either leg with minimal weight transference and immediately step forward and counter attack with the other leg.

In contrast with the side on stance the front leg will generally be used to jam and the rear leg used to counter attack , which takes a lot of time consuming weight transference , and because of the greater distance the rear leg has to travel to get to the opponent it means it is also susceptible to being itself jammed.

That probably covers most of why we use the stance that we do, to the uninitiated it probably looks like a cumbersome and awkward stance to work from.

But it just requires practice and after a time becomes quite natural and you can move speedily in any direction , with complete control of your balance and minimal weight transference.

 

[seasoned]

A self defense situation is made of transitioning through different stances to assure balance, weight distribution, and to transfer power properly. This work is all done while you are involved in practice so in the heat of battle you don't have to think about it, it will be there. This is martial arts 101, I thought everyone knew this.

 

[yak sao]

There are several very good reasons why we use the YCKYM stance as our fighting stance and some features of it that have to be adhered to in order for it to work optimally, I have explained these before so I probably sound like a broken record , but anyway I will say them again.

The stance is not only external it is internal as well , there is a slight contraction of the sphincter muscle (Tei gong) that must be maintained , it locks the upper and lower body together as one unit which increases force in attacking and defensive motions..

I think you just like saying sphincter

 

[yak sao]

But seriously folks...reading your post Mook, inspires me to go out to my training room and practice my stance.
Much appreciated.

 

[mook jong man]

I think you just like saying sphincter

I do actually , it's such a fun word to say.
I might say it some more , sphincter , sphincter , sphincter , sphincter , sphincter , sphincter , sphincter , sphincter , sphincterrrrrrrrrrrrr.

All kidding aside , there is no nice way to talk about it , my Sifu used to describe it as like you are trying to stop yourself from going to the toilet.

But without it the stance is not complete , it requires a lot of mental discipline and training.
There is a very tangible difference that can be felt when it is activated , in chi sau the person will suddenly feel heavier and more power will be felt flowing through the arms , all striking and kicking will also be more powerful.

The persons stance will be more stable and they will not be easily moved , they will also be more mobile as the internal contraction is thought to make the thighs more easily relaxed by taking some of the pressure off them.

The main thing is that it ties the whole body together as one unit , TST describes it this way , if you don't have it on your body is in many pieces , if you have it on your body is now one piece.

 

[wtxs]

A self defense situation is made of transitioning through different stances to assure balance, weight distribution, and to transfer power properly. This work is all done while you are involved in practice so in the heat of battle you don't have to think about it, it will be there. This is martial arts 101, I thought everyone knew this.

We must pity those which may had a life time of schooling ... but didn't learn a damn thing.

 

[Instructor]

Whoa.....sphincter? Somebody tell the Korean stylist(me) all about this regarding stances. What does it mean? How can I apply it to Hapkido?