The Hobbyist vs. The Serious Student

[Flying Crane]

And yet, I would still maintain I was a Hobbyist. If a real Samurai was to hop into a time machine and confront me in the dojo, despite the fact that I would be a giant compared to him, I wouldn't hold out much hope for my chances .

I think the vast majority of us are hobbyists, really. We are not fighting professionally, we are not professional bodyguards, we do not need to use our skills on anything like a regular basis, and not as part of our financial livlihood. If we aren't doing that on some level then I'd say we really are hobbyists.

But hobbyists can be very serious about what they are doing and can train to a very high level. I believe most of the newly discovered comets and whatnot are discovered by backyard astronomers, who are just hobbyists. The professional astronomers are too busy with directed research and don't have time to stumble onto things like new comets. But those backyard hobbyist astronomers have good equipment and the know-how and patience to scan the sky and take note of little differences, and track those differences over time to determine that it's something real and not an anomaly. Those guys really do know what they are doing.

Same thing for martial arts. A hobbyist can be extremely good, maybe better than some non-hobbyist "professionals". It just depends on the level of passion and dedication that you bring to your training.

I think the distinction we are making in this thread is between those who bring that dedication, and those that are there to just go thru the motions and use the club more as a way to pass the time, get a bit of fitness, meet some new friends, etc.

 

[Bruno@MT]

What disturbed me most was the realization that so much of what I had been doing for the past 25+ years, various systems under various teachers, was so fundamentally flawed and poorly understood. I had no idea. It took a little old sifu teaching a very traditional method to pound that into my head. Wish I had figured that out decades ago...

I practiced modern jujutsu for a couple of years, and I did enjoy it and benefited form it.
But looking back now after 2 years in a traditional school, I can honestly say that I got a lot more understanding now (about stances and principles of movement) than I did in the years I spent in a modern school.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Thank you for saying this. One thing that drives me nuts about the prevalent mentality today, and it's common in martial arts as well, is that, we gotta be doing something different every class, to "make it interesting" for the students. Bull-****. It ain't about entertainment. It's about learning a skill and getting it RIGHT, dammit, and that means DO IT AGAIN.

If you wanna, or gotta, be entertained in order to keep up your interest, then martial arts isn't for you. Go play a video game.

+1.

It is one thing I really appreciate about my school, and Genbukan in general.
Repetition is key. And we all do the basic kihon every training, regardless of grade. Rolling and basic kihon will b repeated again and again. Only the grade specific part is separate, and even then, higher grades repeat their stuff in explaining it to the lower grades (under the supervision of the sensei).

Learning advanced stuff is like building an extra floor on a building. You have to strengthen the foundations before you can add anything on top. And the higher you go, the better the foundations have to be.

We do have some variation in our classes, but barring specialty training sessions (like staff or bokken) they are all pretty much alike.

 

[Flying Crane]

We do have some variation in our classes, but barring specialty training sessions (like staff or bokken) they are all pretty much alike.

I certainly would expect some amount of variation from class to class, but overall we keep coming back and working the same things over and over. At some point the amount of material you have may make it impossible to practice all of it in every session. So it does get spread out a bit. But overall it gets drilled and repeated over and over. We aren't trying to get creative for the sake of "keeping interest", tho creativity comes into play in looking at variables and options within the material.

 

[Ken Morgan]

And yet, I would still maintain I was a Hobbyist. If a real Samurai was to hop into a time machine and confront me in the dojo, despite the fact that I would be a giant compared to him, I wouldn't hold out much hope for my chances .

I beg to differ, you would have as good of a chance as they would.

The vast majority of the samurai didn’t practice JSA eight hours a day, living a Spartan life style just waiting to be unleashed upon some enemy their Lord said needs to be killed.

Most of them had some type of bureaucratic job, they were the educated, elite/nobility, and as such they had things to do. Most samurai practiced as much as we do, get 8 – 10 hours a week in and you’re doing pretty good.

If I were to travel back in time to complement what I already know, besides learning to speak Japanese, I would learn, kendo, western fencing and some AEMMA stuff.

Hobby vs. Serious all comes down to attitude, not hours in the dojo.

 

[Tez3]

I think it was just that the paragraph and sentence structure was a touch impenetrable . Maybe a re-phrasing would help?

That's very tactfully put I was going to write that I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. Actually 'huh' was more tactful than what I was thinking.

Btw it's not potato or tater, it's spud or tattie.

I don't think 'making it interesting' is necessarily a bad thing, it depends a lot on how the instructor teaches, if it's in a monotone boring way then class is going to be boring I'm afraid and no one will learn anything. A class can be interesting and still be taught in a traditional way. An instructor has to know how to instruct not just say 'do this' all the time.

 

[clfsean]

That's very tactfully put I was going to write that I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. Actually 'huh' was more tactful than what I was thinking.

My thoughts too. I didn't think it would elicit such a "defensive" tone, but hey... it worked.

Btw it's not potato or tater, it's spud or tattie.

Eh.. only time I ever hear spud is from a buddy of mine from Dublin. Tattie... I feel like I need to order a drink & lapdance... :drinkbeer

I don't think 'making it interesting' is necessarily a bad thing, it depends a lot on how the instructor teaches, if it's in a monotone boring way then class is going to be boring I'm afraid and no one will learn anything. A class can be interesting and still be taught in a traditional way. An instructor has to know how to instruct not just say 'do this' all the time.

Monotone sucks. But repetition is not avoidable. It has to be done. It's not mechanical & robotic, but it does have to be mechanically correct in execution. That only happens by focused reps.

I don't train people the way I was trained. Most people wouldn't hang on. I guess some still don't hang on because I do use some of my teacher's methods. Not fun, but very rewarding.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I certainly would expect some amount of variation from class to class, but overall we keep coming back and working the same things over and over. At some point the amount of material you have may make it impossible to practice all of it in every session. So it does get spread out a bit. But overall it gets drilled and repeated over and over. We aren't trying to get creative for the sake of "keeping interest", tho creativity comes into play in looking at variables and options within the material.

Every time a new student starts, we revisit the basic kihon again and again. That way they know immediately what is in store for them. By the same token, everyone will be following proper dojo etiquette from day 1 (or be reminded of it in a friendly way).

There is a big difference between self defense martial art. We practice the latter. I definitely don't want to imply that one is better than the other, but it is important to know which you are doing, and try to do it the way it was meant to be done.

 

[Tez3]

Repetition is good, we do it in TSD of course but you'd be surprised perhaps how often we do it in MMA, same principle. It's no good learning a technique if you can't do it instinctively when fighting. If people know why they do reps they will do them better.

Tatties is Scottish, as in Burns Night (coming soon) neeps, tatties and haggis, the food of warriors!

 

[Bruno@MT]

Ya can keep yer haggis woman...
But the best drink of the world comes from Scotland, and is preferably as old as I am.

 

[Blade96]

i'd put myself as an in between. My class attendance is near 100% and in class i give it my all, i even learn correct japanese terminology for shotokan techniques. So in that i'm serious. However, I don't practice a whole lot outside of classes. So im something in between a hobbyist and a serious student, I think so anyways.......

 

[MJS]

Thank you for saying this. One thing that drives me nuts about the prevalent mentality today, and it's common in martial arts as well, is that, we gotta be doing something different every class, to "make it interesting" for the students. Bull-****. It ain't about entertainment. It's about learning a skill and getting it RIGHT, dammit, and that means DO IT AGAIN.

If you wanna, or gotta, be entertained in order to keep up your interest, then martial arts isn't for you. Go play a video game.

And again and again and again and again and again and again ...

Basics with me are the 10 seeds in small numbers until all 10 have been seen then reps start... no speed, technique only, then mechanics, then hard target. Speed happens after all that. About 6 months or so they should be at least be working on technique for all 10 seeds. Another couple & they should be hitting for effect.

Then the fun starts.




Nah... not at all. Video games are much more instant gratification.

Oh... by the way I have only one serious student... and she's EIGHT!!!!!!!!!!! So far everybody else I teach has yet to make it through all 10 seeds to begin the burning into the muscle memory... sad.

Funny you guys should mention that, because I was talking about this very thing with someone tonight. I commented how many times, I'll see people with a particular rank, yet their basics, IMHO, dont reflect that rank around their waist. So this is something that I feel many times does seperate the 2 groups. The more serious student will put more into what they're doing, while the hobbyist, tends to just go thru the motions, doing the bare min. to get by, to move on to the next rank, and the process repeats, yet their skills stay stagnant.

Funny too, how people do feel that it gets boring if they're not doing something different each class. Building that foundation is a *****...plain and simple. There're no short cuts. I"ve shown things to people, told them to practice it, and 5min later they're telling me they 'have it'. Oh, ok...so, when I ask to see it, it looks like ****. LOL. Its one thing to say you have it, but another to say you really HAVE IT.

 

[MJS]

I think the vast majority of us are hobbyists, really. We are not fighting professionally, we are not professional bodyguards, we do not need to use our skills on anything like a regular basis, and not as part of our financial livlihood. If we aren't doing that on some level then I'd say we really are hobbyists.

But hobbyists can be very serious about what they are doing and can train to a very high level. I believe most of the newly discovered comets and whatnot are discovered by backyard astronomers, who are just hobbyists. The professional astronomers are too busy with directed research and don't have time to stumble onto things like new comets. But those backyard hobbyist astronomers have good equipment and the know-how and patience to scan the sky and take note of little differences, and track those differences over time to determine that it's something real and not an anomaly. Those guys really do know what they are doing.

Same thing for martial arts. A hobbyist can be extremely good, maybe better than some non-hobbyist "professionals". It just depends on the level of passion and dedication that you bring to your training.

I think the distinction we are making in this thread is between those who bring that dedication, and those that are there to just go thru the motions and use the club more as a way to pass the time, get a bit of fitness, meet some new friends, etc.

Good points and I think this post sums up the point I was trying to make, very well.

 

[Tez3]

Ya can keep yer haggis woman...
But the best drink of the world comes from Scotland, and is preferably as old as I am.

The whisky makers require the same as martial artists if they want to be good and that's patience. It means taking the time to do things properly and seeing what will be good at the end of it not rush because they want it 'now'.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

95% of the time in class, everyone from beginer to Black belts are working the same material, but each level has a certian amount of finer points and acceptable erformance for their rank of a given technique or drill.

I do tend to spend more time with those who clearly spend more of their own time and energy training then someone who does 1-2 classes a week but seems to do nothing extra. I endeavor to do my best with everyone but if you give more I give more.

Hobbyist, Serious students and professional warriors are all welcomed in our Dojo and we sort it out from there, but all are in school were Job 1 is training to be aware of, avoid if possable respond to if not and survive, nutralize and/or escape violent assults.

Job 2 is develope overall fighting/defensive ability to your skills and attributes and preparte you for further advancement.

Job 3 is having fun while doing the above.

So our Hobbyist hobby is learning to protect themselves and their loved ones or community, any personal growth, disciplin or peace they get out of it is a bi product, a great one but a bi product non the less. You advance in rank do to combatvie and technixal ability.

Shugyo!

 

[Supra Vijai]

Just adding something quickly that I've noticed (as a student of course), the main thing that comes up is repitition, we do a lot of that but it's "hidden" IMO. For instance when we do modern self defence, we train the exact same things over and over and over and over each time. If the attacker does something different, we still train the exact same thing and that's because we train principles rather than set "You must respond with Option A to Attack A, Option B to Attack B" etc.. Given that there are so many possible scenarios etc and classes are so fast paced, it can seem like you're learning something brand new.

That being said, something I commented on in class a while ago while doing knife defence was that the material was very familiar, almost unchanged but I got so much more out of it after some extra time spent training and then being exposed to it again. Each time we revisit the basics I find I get something new out of it, whether that something is an understanding of a concept or as small as figuring out a tech works easier for me if I shift my weight this way instead of the other. That in itself keeps it "interesting and fun" without needing to go through something new every time, for me anyway.

 

[Sukerkin]

Exactly so, Vijai. This is why, in the JSA (and all arts I am sure), you keep going back to the simplest of things you learned, for that is the foundation of the 'wall'.

I have often said that if you can do the first four forms of Seiza and Batto Ho, you can be a swordsman. For they contain the core blocks from which nearly everything else is built.

I also say that if you get bored doing Junto Sono Ichi (the first standing form you learn) then you are not doing it right, for, in your minds-eye, there is (should be) someone less than six feet away who is trying to take your head :lol:.

 

[Supra Vijai]

I have often said that if you can do the first four forms of Seiza and Batto Ho, you can be a swordsman. For they contain the core blocks from which nearly everything else is built.

Yet, despite being someone who I'm sure has trained a lot more than the first 4 forms extensively, the humility of the JSA practitioner in you shines through and you say you doubt your skills against a time travelling Samurai

I also say that if you get bored doing Junto Sono Ichi (the first standing form you learn) then you are not doing it right, for, in your minds-eye, there is (should be) someone less than six feet away who is trying to take your head :lol:.

Visualization is something we are encouraged to used fairly extensively during home training. When it's not possible to enlist an Uke outside the dojo for whatever reason, conjure one into existence in your mind, force the adrenaline surge and then work with it. I must admit that's something I tend to find a tad difficult sometimes though as I'm an avid day dreamer and one can never lose a battle in their own daydream

 

[Aiki Lee]

I am told by my instructors to train with everyone as if they are competent and dangerous, but when a hobbyist (for lack of a better word) doesn't seem to being focusing or treating martial arts with the seriousness I think it deserves it gets extremely frustrating to me.

Its always nice when you get those days when the hardcore students show up and are prepared for their beatings.:boing1:

 

[Supra Vijai]

I am told by my instructors to train with everyone as if they are competent and dangerous, but when a hobbyist (for lack of a better word) doesn't seem to being focusing or treating martial arts with the seriousness I think it deserves it gets extremely frustrating to me.

Its always nice when you get those days when the hardcore students show up and are prepared for their beatings.:boing1:

+1 to the frustration although that is something I'm working on slowly. Mind you I tend to have the mindset with pretty much everything, not just MA. Oh yeah and beating each other up and being able to be friends at the end of class is always great :lol: