The General

[terryl965]

and there you go, adopting general choi's ideas, which serve only to divide and separate taekwondo practitioners. more than one senior has told me that general choi was the single most disruptive factor in the unification of taekwondo.

I would have to say alot of ITF people would not agree with the above statement, funny most people will say the General was a big influence in bringing the Kwans together in the beginning. Once again I will ask what unification because even the ITF since the Genaral death does not recognized each other? Please show me only one unified TKD in the world?

I never said I adopted anything just for the record, just used him as a reference that you took as a adoption.

 

[bluewaveschool]

and there you go, adopting general choi's ideas, which serve only to divide and separate taekwondo practitioners. more than one senior has told me that general choi was the single most disruptive factor in the unification of taekwondo.

I would have to say alot of ITF people would not agree with the above statement, funny most people will say the General was a big influence in bringing the Kwans together in the beginning. Once again I will ask what unification because even the ITF since the Genaral death does not recognized each other? Please show me only one unified TKD in the world?

I never said I adopted anything just for the record, just used him as a reference that you took as a adoption.

Is it like attack Terry week or something?

 

[terryl965]

Is it like attack Terry week or something?

No I am a big boy but just wanted to get other people views on things. Nobody is attacking anybody but we are having a civil converstation about what we see differently inside TKD

 

[puunui]

funny most people will say the General was a big influence in bringing the Kwans together in the beginning. Once again I will ask what unification because even the ITF since the Genaral death does not recognized each other? Please show me only one unified TKD in the world?

Unification was one of the requirements for inclusion into the Olympic movement. Other sports within the IOC framework have a unified IF (International Federation). Tennis, basketball, track and field, gymnastics all have this and taekwondo needed to have this as well. There were unification efforts prior to Dr. Un Yong KIM becoming actively involved in Taekwondo, but he was the one who really made it happen.

The main issue with unification was different schools or kwans having different standards, different forms and different certification. The solution to this was a policy of having the same standards, same forms and same certification. To that end, the Kukkiwon was built and created to serve as the unifying entity within taekwondo. The Kukkiwon set the standards, new unified forms were created (Taeguek, Palgwae and Yudanja poomsae) and a unified certification issued (Kukkiwon certification). The unification was achieved when the kwan jang agreed to put aside their differences and pledged to unify under the Kukkiwon.

Unification does not mean 100% unification; for Olympic purposes (which is why unification was so important) all that was required was substantial unification. General Choi, put some efforts in unification, but he for the most part served as an obstacle to unification. There will always be people who choose not to go with the program, and General Choi was one of them in Taekwondo. However, the majority of his people, did leave him and joined the Kukki Taekwondo movement of unification. The Kukkiwon even had an ITF dan assimilation program to allow ITF members to receive Kukkiwon rank.

The real difference I think in your viewpoint and mine is one of perspective. I am looking at what the pioneers did to try and figure out what the original intent was behind the creation of Taekwondo. I want to understand Taekwondo from their perspective. You choose to view Taekwondo by what is going on with the people that you see, which do not include the pioneers. Put another way, I want to understand the Muslim faith from Mohammed's perspective; I am not sure pointing to a suicide bomber and his actions helps me achieve that understanding, from Mohammed's perspective.

 

[terryl965]

Unification was one of the requirements for inclusion into the Olympic movement. Other sports within the IOC framework have a unified IF (International Federation). Tennis, basketball, track and field, gymnastics all have this and taekwondo needed to have this as well. There were unification efforts prior to Dr. Un Yong KIM becoming actively involved in Taekwondo, but he was the one who really made it happen.

The main issue with unification was different schools or kwans having different standards, different forms and different certification. The solution to this was a policy of having the same standards, same forms and same certification. To that end, the Kukkiwon was built and created to serve as the unifying entity within taekwondo. The Kukkiwon set the standards, new unified forms were created (Taeguek, Palgwae and Yudanja poomsae) and a unified certification issued (Kukkiwon certification). The unification was achieved when the kwan jang agreed to put aside their differences and pledged to unify under the Kukkiwon.

Unification does not mean 100% unification; for Olympic purposes (which is why unification was so important) all that was required was substantial unification. General Choi, put some efforts in unification, but he for the most part served as an obstacle to unification. There will always be people who choose not to go with the program, and General Choi was one of them in Taekwondo. However, the majority of his people, did leave him and joined the Kukki Taekwondo movement of unification. The Kukkiwon even had an ITF dan assimilation program to allow ITF members to receive Kukkiwon rank.

The real difference I think in your viewpoint and mine is one of perspective. I am looking at what the pioneers did to try and figure out what the original intent was behind the creation of Taekwondo. I want to understand Taekwondo from their perspective. You choose to view Taekwondo by what is going on with the people that you see, which do not include the pioneers. Put another way, I want to understand the Muslim faith from Mohammed's perspective; I am not sure pointing to a suicide bomber and his actions helps me achieve that understanding, from Mohammed's perspective.

Ok let me ask you this then where do you get the info from? I mean there are not alot of those seniors still around today that is very forthcoming about the actual events. Is there some kind of reference material for one to look at and read it?

 

[puunui]

Ok let me ask you this then where do you get the info from? I mean there are not alot of those seniors still around today that is very forthcoming about the actual events. Is there some kind of reference material for one to look at and read it?

I got the information from decades of continuous research into the history of Taekwondo. Mainly I got it from speaking with the pioneers over the years, meeting with them and discussing their backgrounds and their contributions. This includes years of attending USTU events and USTU meetings. I also have a huge library of reference materials that I have collected over the years. There are several books that give good background information about the history of Taekwondo. Dr. Un Yong KIM, for example, has written books on his experiences. They are in the Korean language though, so unless you have someone to translate for you, it might be difficult.

Here is one reference that was written in Korean but was translated into english. It's called "A Modern History of Taekwondo", written by GM KANG Won Sik. GM Kang is the current president of the Kukkiwon. You can download it here:

http://tkd.stanford.edu/documents/tkd_history.pdf

In that book, many of the pioneers who collectively helped create Taekwondo discuss their experiences. The book avoids the 2000 year old stuff and starts off with a background discussion of the kwans. It also talks about General Choi and his activities, at least from the perspective of the Kukki Taekwondo pioneers.

I got into taekwondo history mainly by accident. I, like everyone else, read the usual small blurbs in books and magazines and took what they wrote about taekwondo history at face value. In college, I used to play cards at lunchtime with a couple of my friends, Kevin Funakoshi and Peter Choo. Kevin's father was a Kajukenbo black belt who switched to Shotokan, and Peter's father was one of the co-founders of Kajukenbo. An interview with the main Kajukenbo founder was published in Inside Kung Fu magazine. I thought it was a good article until I brought it up with Kevin and Peter. They said that the interview was filled with inaccuracies and they went line by line over all the errors. I spoke with Peter's father about it and he confirmed that there were many errors.

That inspired me to research the history of Kenpo, Taekwondo and Hapkido, by seeking out the pioneers who actually lived through the changes. I find that first person perspectives provide the best source of historical information, although books are sometimes good for providing overviews. A Modern History of Taekwondo is a good example of that.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The "General" as he was called, acted so much like a general pretty much his entire adult life. One can imagine that this attitude may present somewhat of a problem or challenge outside of the military. Few serious minded individuals can deny his many contributions & tremendous influence around the world with Taekwon-Do. However to try to grasp just some of the complexities of the man, his work & what he did over the course of his lifetime of involvement in the martial arts, one must try to understand Korean history, their politics & the context of the times that this history & politics unfolded in, as it was these occurrences that also shaped the development of TKD.

Gen Choi was 1 of 7 Koreans that we know of that left Korea during the occupation period in order to improve their lives. While outside of Korea they were also exposed to the martial arts that were taking hold in the East. These Koreans then came home & were involved in opening the 6 early kwans. These kwans in the early days were heavily influenced by the Japanese martial arts. Now Mr Lee left Korea early on, circa 1950, to escape political oppression by the puppet govt of Pres Rhee. Mr Yoon & Mr Chun disappeared during the Korean Civil War, the bloodiest war with the most amount of casulties in the shortest duration in the history of war. Dr. Yoon, probably the highest ranked Korean, really remained true to his karate roots & never really worked with the TKD movement. The same can be said for Mr. Hwang Kee, as he remained Tangsudo & created what he said was the real Korean martial art & called it Subakdo. Of these 7 men, it was really only Gen Choi & Mr Ro ByungJik who were invloved in the TKD movement.

While it is clear that Gen Choi was instrumental in the early days, his focus was not on the Taekwondo movemnt that would become an Olympic sport, but rather his Taekwon-Do, which he named in 1954 & applied to the system he was in the process of developing. Truth be told, not only did he have little to do with the Taekwondo movement, which came to be the TKD that the majority of the world knows, he actually was fighting them tooth & nail, all along the way. He called them karate, as they were not doing his TK-D. They said the same of him. They also resented his autocratic style & had great resentment towards him, especially when Gen Choi yielded power as a member of the ruling Liberal party of Pres Rhee.

This all paled in comparision to the political problems he would come to have under the dictatorship of Gen Park when he led a military coup in 1961. Over the years, Gen Choi would lose power & influence. It was a common ploy of Gen Park to dispose of those who didn't fall in line by sending them overseas as ambassadors. When his diplomatic assignment ended he returned to Korea & found great resistance from the second generation leaders who were building a new Korean martial art/sport that they called TaeSuDo. His constant battles with this leadership that he wanted to supplant only grew worse & he became what they called the "permanent trouble maker" in TKD. His future doom was sealed when in 1971, Dr Kim Un Yong took over the KTA as the 6th president. Dr Kim, a govt official & KCIA operative, was a very talented diplomat & gifted leader. His skills, backed by the influence he yielded from a very supportive govt that saw the benefits of speading TKD to the world, allowed him to become a miracle worker on the international sports scene.

The following year (1972) was the height of the brutality of the Park regime, one that only ended after 18 years, in 1979 by the bullet of his own KCIA director. Gen Choi, now a vocal critic fled Korea as he sought refugee in Canada. Once his self imposed exile began, he became a leading & very outspoken overseas critic of the dictatorship. It was Gen Choi's Taekwon-Do that afforded him the opportunity to travel the world. Almost eveywhere he went he took the opportunity to speak to Korean ex-pats & spread his anti Park rhetoric. He became a problem for the dictator & then sought to destroy him & the ITF, as it was that his mobile stage to speak to the world about the brutality of the dictator.

As the KCIA stepped up there efforts, the ITF was near total collapse. In 1979 Gen Choi went to north Korea where he cut a deal with that totalitarian regime in exchange for support of the ITF. The next year (1980) he introduced his Taekwon-Do there. This was treason & was viewed even by many of his most loyal supporters as being an "anti-nationalist act". This gave the south Korean dictator(s) plenty of ammunition to wipe him out. While this resulted in him being totally blacklisted in south Korea, it did not destroy him or the ITF. The ITF grew in strength, supported by countless north Korean instructors sent around the world to teach ITF TKD. This, coupled with the local national native TK-D leaders, that were now looking directly to him for teaching & leadership, allowed him to do what no ther martial artist in the history of the world did, which was have over 100 nations follow him, holding world championships with some 60 nations coming & competiting in his patterns, with only the smallest of deviation in performance deciding the champion. ITF TKD became very standardized around the world.

Now Gen Choi was a martial artist. He did study & teach in Japan. The martial arts in the 1930s was very basic. He took whatever he learned or was exposed to & turned it into a global Korean martial art for self defense. He did this on a scale never equaled. GM Hwang Kee, as an individual may have been the Korean who came in second, but he did not become involved in the TKD movement. It is curious that his training background is also criticized by the second generation leaders as well. What the 7 Koreans learned outside of Korea, with respect to the martial arts is largely undocumented, except for Dr. Yoon, Mr Chun & Mr Yoon. This is not uncommon for the context of that time period.

Gen Choi can be rightfully considered the father of his TK-D, the father that led his family of followers that made Taekwon-Do. Dr. Kim can be rightfully considered the father of Olympic TKD, the father that led his family of followers that made Kukki Taekwondo. Likewise GM Hwang Kee can be seen in the same light with his SuBakDo. GM Ro, played a part in the TKD movement. However the other 3 Korean kwan founders left Korea circa 1950, before TKD was even on the radar screen. They either fled, were killed or kidnapped to the north.

If one thinks that TKD came from the 6 early kwans, then either Mr. Ro or Mr. Lee can be considered the main man, as they opened the 1st 2 kwans (SMK 11 Mar 1944 - CDK Fall 1944). However many consider Mr. Lee as the more influential kwan founder. But if he was to be considered TKD's founder, then one can't stop there, but must go back to his teacher, Funakoshi Sensei.

It is true that Gen Choi had little to do with the Korean martial arts when the initial unification efforts were playing out. He was however teaching in the Army from 1946. He simply was not invloved at all on the civilian side. In the 1950s however, he moved to the forefront of that movement. He was absent from it at times, due to his other army & govt responsibilities. He was totally removed from the Korean scene when he fled to Canada in 1972, forever cementing the divide between the 2 main TKDs.

Gen Choi can be called a communist, a traitor & somone who committed treason. However that does not take from what he did for TKD, nor should it discredit him with being a true martial artist. People who study TKD's clouded & confusing history are well advised to understand that this south Korean anti-nationalist had little to do with what the world has come to know as Taekwondo. But they should also know that this Taekwondo was not the 1st or original Taekwon-Do. It was actually TaeSuDo. They only adopted the name TKD in August of 1965, by what I have read as only 1 vote. And they only did it at the insistence of Gen Choi. You see Gen Choi was doing & developing his TKD from the 1940s in the army & calling it TKD from 1954. This is where much of the confusion comes from. It also gets so very clouded by the nasty politics of Korea.

So it also depends on which Pioneers one listens to, the Taekwon-Do ones of the TaeSuDo ones. They both consider the other side karate. I wish the TaeSuDo guys never took the name TKD. I bet it would not only be less confusing, but also less contentious. I have learned some very good info & insight from these recent topics & thank Puunui for sharing so much!

 

[KarateMomUSA]

There were unification efforts prior to Dr. Un Yong KIM becoming actively involved in Taekwondo, but he was the one who really made it happen.

No doubt about it. I also think it is nice that he is giving Gen Choi some well deserved credit for his early work with TKD, even though he was Dr Kim's adversary

 

[Earl Weiss]

.

As the KCIA stepped up there efforts, the ITF was near total collapse. In 1979 Gen Choi went to north Korea where he cut a deal with that totalitarian regime in exchange for support of the ITF. The next year (1980) he introduced his Taekwon-Do there. This was treason & was viewed even by many of his most loyal supporters as being an "anti-nationalist act". This gave the south Korean dictator(s) plenty of ammunition to wipe him out. While this resulted in him being totally blacklisted in south Korea, it did not destroy him or the ITF. The ITF grew in strength, supported by countless north Korean instructors sent around the world to teach ITF TKD.

I would say the "Countless North Korean Instructors sent around the world" is a gross overstatement.

I did admitttedly simple research along these lines and all I could find out about were 1 or 2 in the Czech republic, perhaps a handful more in former Soviet Block countries, and some guy in Togo who had a picture of one on his wall. If anyone on the WWW has more info. Please let me know.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I would say the "Countless North Korean Instructors sent around the world" is a gross overstatement.

I did admitttedly simple research along these lines and all I could find out about were 1 or 2 in the Czech republic, perhaps a handful more in former Soviet Block countries, and some guy in Togo who had a picture of one on his wall. If anyone on the WWW has more info. Please let me know.

Sorry I used the term "countless" not to reflect large numbers, but the fact that since it is north Korea there is no real way to authenticate or "count" with an acurracy that can be trusted. I would also say that there were many more dispatched before the Iron Curtain fell. They only send instructors to nations that they have diplomatic relationships with, as it is their Embassies that oversee the instructors as I understand it. There are also countless numbers of students back in north Korea, as they have the typical communist system that identifies early on talented & gifted ones, who are then moved onto the fast track.

 

[leadleg]

I can not provide proof but I remember reading somewhere that some TKD instructors sent abroad may have been information gatherers.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I can not provide proof but I remember reading somewhere that some TKD instructors sent abroad may have been information gatherers.

Yes I would imagine that anyone that has permission to travel outside of north Korea would be trusted & a member in good standing with the People's Party. As such, all people of this regime must report to or are controled by the regime. Likewise the south Korean dictator Gen Park that took over by military coup in 1961 & ruled with an iron fist till he was killed in 1979 by his own KCIA head , used TKD bruts all around the world to further his political agenda. They kept Korean Ex-pats in check & pressured those like Gen Choi & other leading political dissidents, who spoke out against his regime. These are also the ones that persuaded the ITF Korean master to leave the ITF & Gen Choi. He (Park) saw value in TKD more than the obvious cultural & monetary benefits. This was uncovered as part of the KoreaGate scandal that rocked the US Congress which resulted in an intensive FBI & Congressional investigations in the 1970s. It was here I think that proof was obtained that Dr Kim Un Yong was a KCIA operative, whose alias was "Mikey Kim".

 

[Earl Weiss]

I can not provide proof but I remember reading somewhere that some TKD instructors sent abroad may have been information gatherers.

You could have read it lots of places.
That is why a few years ago I tried to track down where they had gone. Lots of people on the web now from all over the globe. Except for the few instances mentioned it seemed virtualy non existant.

 

[puunui]

Of these 7 men, it was really only Gen Choi & Mr Ro ByungJik who were invloved in the TKD movement.

I don't think that is true. For example, it was GM HWANG Kee and Dr. YOON Kwe Byung who started the first exchanges with Japan, and on the first of such trips, they brought back the first hogu and the idea of full contact competition. Prior to that, Taekwondo sparring was non contact.

While it is clear that Gen Choi was instrumental in the early days, his focus was not on the Taekwondo movemnt that would become an Olympic sport, but rather his Taekwon-Do, which he named in 1954 & applied to the system he was in the process of developing.

I don't know how instrumental General Choi was in the early days. It seems to me that General Choi was more of a hindrance than anything else. Also, my understanding was that it was GM NAM Tae Hi who did the actual research into the name and came up with Taekwon, not General Choi. And General Choi did attempt to have the ITF be recognized by the IOC as the IF for taekwondo, so he did want to be part of the Olympic Movement.

It was a common ploy of Gen Park to dispose of those who didn't fall in line by sending them overseas as ambassadors.

Who else did President PARK Chung Hee do this to, besides General Choi?

In 1979 Gen Choi went to north Korea where he cut a deal with that totalitarian regime in exchange for support of the ITF. The next year (1980) he introduced his Taekwon-Do there. This was treason & was viewed even by many of his most loyal supporters as being an "anti-nationalist act".

It was treason for a former ROK Army General to willingly go to North Korea. Who knows what he told North Korea about South Korea's military capabilities. When General Choi did that, he lost a lot of support from the South Korean born supporters of his ITF.

Now Gen Choi was a martial artist. He did study & teach in Japan.

There is no evidence that General Choi "taught" in Japan, given his less than one year training while a student at Chuo, unless you include the "instruction" General Choi gave to that horse that kicked him in the ribs.

He took whatever he learned or was exposed to & turned it into a global Korean martial art for self defense. He did this on a scale never equaled.

I don't think it was General Choi so much as it was the seniors he recruited from other Kwans who did all of the "heavy lifting".

What the 7 Koreans learned outside of Korea, with respect to the martial arts is largely undocumented, except for Dr. Yoon, Mr Chun & Mr Yoon.

What is the documentation on Mr. Chun's training outside of Japan?

If one thinks that TKD came from the 6 early kwans, then either Mr. Ro or Mr. Lee can be considered the main man, as they opened the 1st 2 kwans (SMK 11 Mar 1944 - CDK Fall 1944).

The Chung Do Kwan members dispute this claim by GM RO Byung Jick, because he was a member of the Chung Do Kwan until he opened his school in Kae Song in 1947. There is a picture of the Song Moo Kwan grand opening, which was attended by GM LEE Won Kuk and many of his senior students, including GM SON Duk Sung, GM KANG Suh Chong, GM UHM Woon Kyu, and others.

Gen Choi can be called a communist, a traitor & somone who committed treason. However that does not take from what he did for TKD, nor should it discredit him with being a true martial artist.

What did he do for Taekwondo that would override him being a communist and a traitor?

People who study TKD's clouded & confusing history are well advised to understand that this south Korean anti-nationalist had little to do with what the world has come to know as Taekwondo. But they should also know that this Taekwondo was not the 1st or original Taekwon-Do. It was actually TaeSuDo. They only adopted the name TKD in August of 1965, by what I have read as only 1 vote.

And if General Choi hadn't done that, then Taesoodo would be the Olympic sport, and there would be no "confusion" or conflict about General Choi or Taekwondo. He would have been the "Founder" in much the same way that GM HWANG Kee was the founder of Soo Bahk Do, and no one would dispute that. Any confusion or conflict was, once again, created by General Choi.

So it also depends on which Pioneers one listens to, the Taekwon-Do ones of the TaeSuDo ones. They both consider the other side karate.

The pioneers do not consider General Choi's Taekwon-Do to be Karate; they consider ITF Taekwon-Do to be Taekwondo. There is only one Taekwondo, which includes ITF Taekwon-Do.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Of these 7 men, it was really only Gen Choi & Mr Ro ByungJik who were invloved in the TKD movement.

I don't think that is true. For example, it was GM HWANG Kee and Dr. YOON Kwe Byung who started the first exchanges with Japan, and on the first of such trips, they brought back the first hogu and the idea of full contact competition. Prior to that, Taekwondo sparring was non contact.

Thats fine & good information. However what I mean by not being involved in the TKD movement was that anytime GM Hwang agreed, he backed out. It was his sudents that worked along with the other 2nd generation leaders to make Kukki TKD. Dr Yoon always maintained his karate roots. That is not to say that neither man did not influence or contribute to the TKD movement during the formative years, as they obviously did. But they did not agree with the direction of the 2nd generation leaders.
But on the other hand, both Gen Choi & GM Ro played roles, including significant leadership parts, as both were involved with the TKD group formed in 1957, the KTA formed in 1959 & the Korean TaeSuDo Association formed in 1961, being the 3rd & 4th presidents respectively.

I don't know how instrumental General Choi was in the early days. It seems to me that General Choi was more of a hindrance than anything else. Also, my understanding was that it was GM NAM Tae Hi who did the actual research into the name and came up with Taekwon, not General Choi. And General Choi did attempt to have the ITF be recognized by the IOC as the IF for taekwondo, so he did want to be part of the Olympic Movement.

Well if you are looking at TKD as only Kukki Taekwondo, then yes of course he was a hinderance. That is obvious! But no fair minded person can discount that he named his Korean Martial Art TKD & taught it throughout the military & police from that time until it was changed in 1975. He then sent his TKD instructors to Vietnam from 1962 to teach TKD there. That same year he introduced it to Malaysia when he lived there as the Korean Ambassador. It was also Gen Choi & his followers who only used the name TKD until 1965 & in some cases 1972 or even as late as 1978, when the kwans were officially rolled into the KKW. He was the VP of the TKD Assoc of Korea formed in 1957, the president of the KTA in 1959, when he also wrote the 1st book ever on TKD & led the 1st TKD demo team outside of Korea. He also wrote the 1st English book in 1965, led a TKD goodwill tour around the world as a result of his connections, was elected 3rd president of the KTA & got the name changed to TKD from TaeSuDo, all in 1965. Then the next year he formed the ITF, was dispatching his instructors all around the world, holding the 1st Asian Champs in 1969. He then wrote the most impressive book on the martial arts to date, in 1972, that I have ever seen, but again I will defer to your impressive book collection. All this 7 more, even before the KKW & WTF were formed.

Who else did President PARK Chung Hee do this to, besides General Choi?

For this we have to go outside the TKD world to people like Dr Cummings of Chicago & Dr Armstrong of Columbia. Another example would be Gen Choi Duk Shin, Ambassador to Vietnam, then West Germany. Even future President Kim Dae Jung was almost killed by the KCIA & dumped into the East Sea (or Sea of Japan). There was only 1 other officer from the Oh Do kwan, according to Dr Kimm He Young who was even promoted to General, because of their association with Gen Choi, who was an outspoken critic of Gen Park & his military dictatorship.

It was treason for a former ROK Army General to willingly go to North Korea. Who knows what he told North Korea about South Korea's military capabilities. When General Choi did that, he lost a lot of support from the South Korean born supporters of his ITF.

Yes it was & in many eyes he rightfully lost that support.

There is no evidence that General Choi "taught" in Japan, given his less than one year training while a student at Chuo, unless you include the "instruction" General Choi gave to that horse that kicked him in the ribs.

Sorry but I don't know about any horse, but Dr Kimm He Young verified that Gen choi actually taught at the YMCA in Japan.

I don't think it was General Choi so much as it was the seniors he recruited from other Kwans who did all of the "heavy lifting".

Like all the other soldiers who do the heavy lifting & make the leaders (commissioned officers) look good. This is no different. Now Dr Kim Un Yong was the leader of the Olympic movement, but not a martial artist. However Gen Choi in his Chang Hon TKD, which was the 1st TKD, or the 1st martial art to apply the name to their system, was both a leader & a martial artist. Ask any of his Pioneers for instance on who devised the ITF patterns & who performed them. Many of his team contributed much to their unique system that they were developing, just as the Kukki TKD team did. But ITF TKD, the original or Chang Hon TKD had Gen Choi as the mastermind behind its creation. I am not sure who you would label or credit as the mastermind of Kukki TKD?
Some of Gen Choi's TKD Pioneers would readily say that Gen Choi was not the fighter, but he was a martial artist, the vision, the creator & their teacher, in their words.

What is the documentation on Mr. Chun's training outside of Japan?

I am confused, sorry. But didn't the Chang Moo kwan founder study Chinese martial arts in Manchurria? Who was the one who was granted karate Dan ranking in Japan for sharing his CMAs there at the university? Was this Chun or Master Yoon, not Dr Yoon? GM Kim Soo reports on this, but I am not sure

The Chung Do Kwan members dispute this claim by GM RO Byung Jick, because he was a member of the Chung Do Kwan until he opened his school in Kae Song in 1947. There is a picture of the Song Moo Kwan grand opening, which was attended by GM LEE Won Kuk and many of his senior students, including GM SON Duk Sung, GM KANG Suh Chong, GM UHM Woon Kyu, and others.

No this is not what I understand. He opened his 1st school in Kaesong at an archery range, 1 of the few martial arts allowed during the occupation on March 11, 1944, according to the Modern History. He was forced to close about 6 months later by the Japanese. He went south after the division of Korea by the USSR & USA in 1945. That photo was most likely in south Korea, not north Korea (Kaesong, just north of the present day DMZ), which was still part of a unified & occupied Korea back in 1944.

What did he do for Taekwondo that would override him being a communist and a traitor?

For some, nothing. However after the passage of time & how things unfold, some may say he was a visionary with regard to Korean unification.

And if General Choi hadn't done that, then Taesoodo would be the Olympic sport, and there would be no "confusion" or conflict about General Choi or Taekwondo. He would have been the "Founder" in much the same way that GM HWANG Kee was the founder of Soo Bahk Do, and no one would dispute that. Any confusion or conflict was, once again, created by General Choi.

Couldn't agree more. But I say that Gen Choi had nothing much to do with Kukki TKD's development. As a matter of fact, he fought against it or was a hinderance to it. But wouldn't you agree that Gen Choi was the founder of Chang Hon TKD? Or at least the principle founder of that style, system etc?

The pioneers do not consider General Choi's Taekwon-Do to be Karate; they consider ITF Taekwon-Do to be Taekwondo. There is only one Taekwondo, which includes ITF Taekwon-Do.

GM Lee Chong Woo was pretty adamant. Dr Kim from my understanding still says that, as Dr Kim says that he is the father of modern TKD & Olympic TKD.

 

[puunui]

as both were involved with the TKD group formed in 1957, the KTA formed in 1959 & the Korean TaeSuDo Association formed in 1961, being the 3rd & 4th presidents respectively.

I am unaware of any 1957 Taekwondo Association, unless you are talking about one formed by the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan.

He then wrote the most impressive book on the martial arts to date, in 1972, that I have ever seen, but again I will defer to your impressive book collection.

That is a good question, what is the most impressive book on martial arts to date. I have to think about that one.

Sorry but I don't know about any horse, but Dr Kimm He Young verified that Gen choi actually taught at the YMCA in Japan.

Correction, Dr. Kimm, who has been to my house and seen my book collection, repeated what General Choi said about teaching at a YMCA in Japan. Accordingly to chrisspillertkd, that doesn't prove anything.

Ask any of his Pioneers for instance on who devised the ITF patterns & who performed them. Many of his team contributed much to their unique system that they were developing, just as the Kukki TKD team did. But ITF TKD, the original or Chang Hon TKD had Gen Choi as the mastermind behind its creation.

My understanding from Earl Weiss is that when he was in Malaysia, General Choi would draw out the ITF patterns on paper and then sent it to GM NAM Tae Hi via teletype, who would then work out the forms and make them a reality. The words I seem to remember was General Choi was the director and GM Nam was the actor. But if General Choi were truly a martial artists like you and other claims, why didn't he direct and act? Why have GM Nam flesh out the forms and make them a reality?

I am not sure who you would label or credit as the mastermind of Kukki TKD?

There is no one person that I would credit for the creation of Kukki Taekwondo. It was a collaborative effort of many, including General Choi. That's why no one individual person is ever listed as the sole creator or founder in any Kukkiwon or WTF publication.

But didn't the Chang Moo kwan founder study Chinese martial arts in Manchurria? Who was the one who was granted karate Dan ranking in Japan for sharing his CMAs there at the university? Was this Chun or Master Yoon, not Dr Yoon? GM Kim Soo reports on this, but I am not sure

That was GM YOON Byung In, not GM CHUN Sang Sup.

But I say that Gen Choi had nothing much to do with Kukki TKD's development.

I wouldn't say that. I would say that General Choi did have an influence on Kukki Taekwondo, because he forced the name change and also because there was an Oh Do Kwan representative, GM HYUN Jong Myung, on the the KTA Committee which created the Kukkiwon poomsae. So the Chang Hon tul are part of the Kukkiwon poomsae in that regard.

But wouldn't you agree that Gen Choi was the founder of Chang Hon TKD? Or at least the principle founder of that style, system etc?.

I can see how others might say that, but I would say that there is no separate system of Chang Hon Taekwondo. Instead, there is only one Taekwondo and we are all a part of it, including General Choi's people. Even General Choi wanted that.

GM Lee Chong Woo was pretty adamant. Dr Kim from my understanding still says that, as Dr Kim says that he is the father of modern TKD & Olympic TKD.

Not to me they haven't. GM LEE Chong Woo, for example, up until a few years ago when his health problems set in, was very accessable. He was at the Kukkiwon every day and welcomed visitors. I even got a two hour impromptu private lesson from him once. It was pretty amazing actually. And everytime I tried to distinguish this from that, or do anything of that nature, he would always say Taekwondo is unified and that there is only one Taekwondo. His technical explanations mirrored the other pioneers in that regard, and they all had the same technical explanations for everything, short narrow stances and all.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I am unaware of any 1957 Taekwondo Association, unless you are talking about one formed by the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan.

Yes

Correction, Dr. Kimm, who has been to my house and seen my book collection, repeated what General Choi said about teaching at a YMCA in Japan. Accordingly to chrisspillertkd, that doesn't prove anything.

Maybe but Dr Kimm, as a historian, doing research for his book on TKD's history, must independently confirm info, which he did

My understanding from Earl Weiss is that when he was in Malaysia, General Choi would draw out the ITF patterns on paper and then sent it to GM NAM Tae Hi via teletype, who would then work out the forms and make them a reality. The words I seem to remember was General Choi was the director and GM Nam was the actor. But if General Choi were truly a martial artists like you and other claims, why didn't he direct and act? Why have GM Nam flesh out the forms and make them a reality?

Yes but when in Malaysia he had Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim doing this for him. he was of course the director that also had some of the greatest actors to perform for him. He after all was a general & had thousands of soldiers under his command to pick from. I think that great leaders usually utilize great assets at their disposal. Gen Choi led a team of supermen. I wouldn't say that he was a superman, but he was a dedicated martial artist in every sense of the term, according to my view. He also gave the world a great system. I don't forget to thank him for that.

That was GM YOON Byung In, not GM CHUN Sang Sup.

Yes I often confuse these often forgotten Korean legends

I can see how others might say that, but I would say that there is no separate system of Chang Hon Taekwondo. Instead, there is only one Taekwondo and we are all a part of it, including General Choi's people. Even General Choi wanted that.

Yes I believe in 1 TKD, but maybe with some different subsets!

 

[puunui]

Maybe but Dr Kimm, as a historian, doing research for his book on TKD's history, must independently confirm info, which he did

Dr. Heyoung Kimm is a Kukmukwan member, having received a Kukmukwan 5th Dan from GM KANG Suh Chong in 1968, soon after GM Kang arrived in the United States. Dr. Kimm was all set to release his Taekwondo history book prominently featuring General Choi, but then the Modern History and other books started coming out, which caused Dr. Kimm to delay his Taekwondo history work indefinitely. It was supposed to have been release over ten years ago.

Yes but when in Malaysia he had Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim doing this for him. he was of course the director that also had some of the greatest actors to perform for him. He after all was a general & had thousands of soldiers under his command to pick from. I think that great leaders usually utilize great assets at their disposal. Gen Choi led a team of supermen. I wouldn't say that he was a superman, but he was a dedicated martial artist in every sense of the term, according to my view.

Again, if General Choi was such a great martial artist back in 1959 or even in 1962 when he was exiled to Malaysia, why didn't he work out the forms himself? Why wouldn't he do it himself? I read at least part of his autobiography, and it was always I did this and I did that. Doesn't seem to match his personality that he would let others work out the details for his beloved forms, which he sees as his lasting legacy to the martial arts. You would think he would work on his legacy on his own.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Dr. Heyoung Kimm is a Kukmukwan member, having received a Kukmukwan 5th Dan from GM KANG Suh Chong in 1968, soon after GM Kang arrived in the United States. Dr. Kimm was all set to release his Taekwondo history book prominently featuring General Choi, but then the Modern History and other books started coming out, which caused Dr. Kimm to delay his Taekwondo history work indefinitely. It was supposed to have been release over ten years ago.

I think that Dr Kimm's book is some 40 years in the making. I am sure when it will be released that it will vindicate a lot of what Gen Choi said & also point out things that were not accurate. On whole there will be many that will love & appreciate his most comprehensive effort. On the other side there will be some & some in the south Korean govt that will not be happy with his findings. However for those that are interested in the history, as long as what is written is historically accurate, thats all I care about. A work like this is long overdue. I am also sure that he will make clear the different paths that various leaders took on their development. One of the reasons why it s delayed is that he is compiling info on as many Pioneers as he can, giving accounts of where they went & when, along with what they did in their new adopted homelands.
While the KCIA tried to prevent his PhD doctoral dissertation from being published, the true democracy that now exists in south Korea will not allow such actions in the present day the way they happened back in the days of the military dictatorships

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Yes but when in Malaysia he had Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim doing this for him. he was of course the director that also had some of the greatest actors to perform for him. He after all was a general & had thousands of soldiers under his command to pick from. I think that great leaders usually utilize great assets at their disposal. Gen Choi led a team of supermen. I wouldn't say that he was a superman, but he was a dedicated martial artist in every sense of the term, according to my view.

Again, if General Choi was such a great martial artist back in 1959 or even in 1962 when he was exiled to Malaysia, why didn't he work out the forms himself? Why wouldn't he do it himself? I read at least part of his autobiography, and it was always I did this and I did that. Doesn't seem to match his personality that he would let others work out the details for his beloved forms, which he sees as his lasting legacy to the martial arts. You would think he would work on his legacy on his own.

I am sorry I really thought I had responded to this point as adequately as I could have.
Please define great martial artist?
To me Gen Choi was a great martial artist. He was that way in my opinion not because of his physical talents, but his vision, philosophy & the system he created that is standardized in some 100+ countries around the globe. Imagine holding a world championship where students compete in patterns & almost look like they came from the same exact school, when it reality they come from another corner of the world. That was done since the 1980s, while the WTF & KKW are now just starting to do this in the last couple of years with their world Poomsae championships. Think of the task that is ahead for those leaders to standardized the technique all around the world in 192 member nations. These groups supported in south Korea have a great team & staff. Gen Choi was a single martial artist that did this virtually on his own. That to me is a great martial artist. He went to countries that the WTF was not allowed to go till, until of course they needed that support for Olympic sport status. He did this, all the while with the military dictatorships trying to destroy him, his art & his loyal Korean students. This is a remarkable accomplishment I don't think has ever before been done. I hope & wish the WTF/KKW well with the task at hand.

Now I will tell you that Gen Choi was not a great martial artist for his fighting, power, breaking or flying skills. Of course he designed his Tuls with himself going through the motions. But & it is a big but, he had so many talented superman that did have the power, fighting, breaking & power skills that he may not have been gifted with. He used these talented superman like any great director would. He had them perform the moves that he designed. He then saw from outside how it "looked on camera".
Can't you see this?
Do others understand what I am writing?
Or do I need to keep trying to clarify further?
Gen Choi was a martial artist in 1959. He was one in the 1930s when he was exposed to Taek Kyon & stories about it from his caligraphy teacher & then when he trained karate in Japan & then taught it there at the YMCA. He was also a soldier that served his country in official capacities for 20 years, then several more as head of the ITF, until 1972 when he was forced to exile himself to escape political oppression. He then continued to serve Korea as a whole till he died. A soldier is the epitome of a martial artist, at least in times gone by. This man taught till his dying breath. Just 2 months before he died he instructed at a weekend course in the USA. He had to be taken in with a wheelchair, but stood up & walked into the room on his own where he continued to teach without the wheelchair the whole weekend. Ask Master Weiss he was there & it is well documented on Youtube. That to me is what a martial artist is.

Now was he the roll up your sleeve, bang it out guy like GM Son Duk Sung. Was he a great fighter like the 1st TKD champion Choi Chang Keun, who also won in the 1st TaeSuDo championships. No he was not. Did he start sooner, train harder or longer that the other early kwan founders? No maybe not all. Did any other early kwan founder have the worldwide impact & the direct following that he did? Clearly no, not even close, with I would say GM Hwang Kee coming in a distant second. I am not sure why you keep harping on his status as a martial artist. Please explain.

While Gen Choi was the director I would publicly list & credit some of the Original TKD Pioneer supermen who were his actors:
Nam Tae Hi, Han Cha Kyo, Choi Chang Keun, Kim Bok Man, Woo Jae Lim, Kim Yong Chan, Kim Young Soo, Cho Sang Min, Lee Byung Moo, Park Jung Tae.
They deserve thanks as well.