The far right in Europe is really the far left...

[Josh Oakley]

Wow. Rather than address my critique of the basis of your argument, you plow on through. Well played, sir. Well played.

I do have to wonder, though, how much knowledge you have of formal political science.

 

[billc]

Formal political science, no, but I have made a study of socialism, from a hobbyists point of view. Since Socialism is an economic system I look at what economists have to say about it.

 

[elder999]

Formal political science, no, but I have made a study of socialism, from a hobbyists point of view.

yeah? Do you have an ant-farm or something?.....:lfao:

 

[billc]

No, I just watch the democrats and get pretty much the same activity.

 

[granfire]

Um... No. While I don't agree with bill on this one, you are mistaken about fascism. It is neither inherently conservative nor is it inherently liberal. Hell, Italian fascism was demonstrably anti-conservative AND anti-conservative. I am not saying that bill is RIGHT. His line of reasoning is fallacious. But NEITHER of you seem to understand the difference between the liberal-conservative continuum and the authoritarian-libertarian continuum. In effect, the two of you are having an argument devoid of any real thrust on either side because you are arguing about terms with no demonstrated-as-of-yet understanding about what these terms MEAN.Xenophobia, racism, and anti-semitism, in addition to being semantically redundant in the context of the conversation, are neither inherently conservative nor liberal standpoints. You will find racists on BOTH SIDES of that spectrum.Anti freedom is judged on the authorizarian-libertarian scale. It is entirely possible to be anti-freedom AND be either CONSERVATIVE or LIBERAL. The basis of bill's argument is flawed on the very same grounds that the basis of your criticism is flawed.

Oh, this banter has been going on for a while now:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...l-thanksgiving&highlight=thereal+thanksgiving

 

[Josh Oakley]

Formal political science, no, but I have made a study of socialism, from a hobbyists point of view. Since Socialism is an economic system I look at what economists have to say about it.

So basically you don't actually have a real base from which to evaluate political systems or philosophies, but speak with an air of authority on the topic, nonetheless. Got it.

How much knowledge do you have of formal economics?

 

[Josh Oakley]

Bill, my big problem with your approach is that you are presenting intermediate to advanced concepts about politics, yet you have no foundation or real familiarity with the basics relating to your chosen topic. It's backwards.

The thing is, this forum is populated by martial artists. Yourself included. How often do we help a novice martial artist avoid some pretty massive blunders by stressing heavily that they need to work the basics?

If you were a white-belt hobbyist who came on these forums and proclaimed loudly "BRUCE LEE IS TEH ROXOR OF ALL MARTIAL ARTISTS! THE ONLY TECHNIQUE YOU WILL EVER NEED IS TO PUNCH TEH BALLZORZ!!!" You would be lampooned by some, debated heavily by others, and mentored by the rest if we could ever get you to wipe the froth from the corners of your mouth, and start learning some BASICS about martial arts before making any proclamations 'round these here parts.

But this is essentially what you're doing with politics. Probably economics, too.

The approach in martial arts, politics, mathematics... really all human pursuits, is best served by having a strong foundation in the basics before moving on to more advanced topics.

And in this day and age, it doesn't require a degree, it doesn't require attendance at a fancy-schmancy college, it merely requires some time well spent on the interwebs to become truly conversant in these topics.

And were you to actually DO that, you would be much more warmly received.

 

[billc]

None. I didn't know that was necessary to post on the political thread of a martial arts web site. I guess I'll go get my degree in both political science and economics and then come back and post. Would that meet your requirement for posting on the political side of martial arts web site? Or, I can research the writings of actual professors of economics and experts of other fields, at least one, Hayek, a Nobel prize winner, and see what their thoughts are on the topic I'm interested in, post them and their works as sources and then go have a life. Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich Hayek, Thomas Sowell, all believe hitler was a socialist and a lefty and I have numerous other authors that I can site supporting my belief that Hitler and Mussolini were socialists. Also, I believe that National socialism, Italian Facism and international communism are all different types of socialism with different flavors depending on the facts on the ground in the countries where they came to power and the idiosycracies of their particular murdering madmen who championed them. So my base would be the works of well known economists.

By the way, did you develop the Friesian 3 dimensional model on your own in your spare time...or did you get it from some other person who created it and who you now site as YOUR source of wisdom? And I suppose all of the theories you will explain to us here are of course all your own, developed without any outside influence otherthan your own contemplation as to the nature of political science and economics.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Oh, this banter has been going on for a while now:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...l-thanksgiving&highlight=thereal+thanksgiving

Alrighty then. Also, that was mildly painful to read. All that talk of native savages, and Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee didn't even come up. But I digress.

 

[billc]

Oh, you're another Elder. Well, it was nice to meet you.

 

[Josh Oakley]

None. I didn't know that was necessary to post on the political thread of a martial arts web site. I guess I'll go get my degree in both political science and economics and then come back and post. Would that meet your requirement for posting on the political side of martial arts web site? Or, I can research the writings of actual professors of economics and experts of other fields, at least one, Hayek, a Nobel prize winner, and see what their thoughts are on the topic I'm interested in, post them and their works as sources and then go have a life. Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich Hayek, Thomas Sowell, all believe hitler was a socialist and a lefty and I have numerous other authors that I can site supporting my belief that Hitler and Mussolini were socialists. Also, I believe that National socialism, Italian Facism and international communism are all different types of socialism with different flavors depending on the facts on the ground in the countries where they came to power and the idiosycracies of their particular murdering madmen who championed them. So my base would be the works of well known economists.

By the way, did you develop the Friesian 3 dimensional model on your own in your spare time...or did you get it from some other person who created it and who you now site as YOUR source of wisdom? And I suppose all of the theories you will explain to us here are of course all your own, developed without any outside influence otherthan your own contemplation as to the nature of political science and economics.

First, if you CAN cite, then DO site. Second, read the post directly above yours. That responds to a number of points you make here. I probably posted it while you were still writing this.

Your last sentence is entirely nonsensical, based even on the posts I put up before you wrote this.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Oh, you're another Elder. Well, it was nice to meet you.

Actually, me and him disagreed with eachother quite often, but that was a nice attempt at an ad hominem. Try ACTUALLY ADDRESSING THE ARGUMENTS I WRITE.

 

[elder999]

Alrighty then. Also, that was mildly painful to read. All that talk of native savages, and Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee didn't even come up. But I digress.

"Savages?"

I'm just going to trust that you omitted the quotation marks by accident, right? :lfao:

 

[Josh Oakley]

Yes, sorry. I was still reeling from being equated to you. I don't smell NEARLY as bad!

 

[elder999]

. I don't smell NEARLY as bad!

WTF? :angry:

 

[billc]

Rudy (R.J.) Rummel is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science. He has published twenty-four nonfiction books (one that received an award for being among the most referenced; another was rated the 26th most important of the last century), six novels, and about 100 peer-reviewed professional articles; has received the Susan Strange Award of the International Studies Association in 1999 for having intellectually most challenged the field; and in 2003 was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Conflict Processes Section, American Political Science Association. He has been frequently nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. His website is here.

http://democraticpeace.wordpress.com/2009/05/23/hitler-was-a-socialist/

Mussolini’s fascism was a state socialism that was explicitly anti-Marx and aggressively nationalistic. Hitler’s National Socialism was state socialism at its worse. It not only shared the socialism of fascism, but was explicitly racist. In this it differs from the state socialism of Burma today, and that of some African and Arab dictatorships.
Two prevailing historical myths that the left has propagated successfully is that Hitler was a far right wing conservative and was democratically elected in 1933 (a blow at bourgeois democracy and conservatives). Actually, he was defeated twice in the national elections (he became chancellor in a smoke-filled-room appointment by those German politicians who thought they could control him — see “What? Hitler Was Not Elected?”) and as head of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, he considered himself a socialist, and was one by the evidence of his writings and the his economic policies.
To be clear, National Socialism differs from Marxism in its nationalism, emphasis on folk history and culture, idolization of the leader, and its racism. But the Nazi and Marxist-Leninists shared a faith in government, an absolute ruler, totalitarian control over all significant economic and social matters for the good of the working man, concentration camps, and genocide/democide as an effective government policy (only in his last years did Stalin plan for his own Holocaust of the Jews

His book, "Death by Government" is great. I think I donated my copy to the library so eventually I'll have to reaquire it for my kindle.

I just hope he has his basics on political science down.

Also, another great book, "Property and Freedom," By Richard Pipes.

From wikipedia on Mr. Pipes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pipes

Pipes taught at Harvard University from 1950 until his retirement in 1996. He was the director of Harvard's Russian Research Center from 1968 to 1973 and is now Baird Professor Emeritus of History at Harvard University. In 1962 he delivered a series of lectures on Russian intellectual history at Leningrad University. He acted as senior consultant at the Stanford Research Institute from 1973 to 1978. During the 1970s, he was an advisor to Washington Senator Henry M. Jackson. In 1981 and 1982 he served as a member of the National Security Council, holding the post of Director of East European and Soviet Affairs under President Ronald Reagan.[SUP][5][/SUP] Pipes was a member of the Committee on the Present Danger from 1977 until 1992 and belongs to the Council of Foreign Relations. In the 1970s, Pipes was a leading critic of détente, which he described as "inspired by intellectual indolence and based on ignorance of one's antagonist and therefore inherently inept".[SUP][6][/SUP]

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0999h.asp

Pipes concisely and impressively analyzes the differences and similarities in
20th-century Soviet communism, Italian fascism, and German national socialism.
All three systems shared a common hatred for classical liberalism and the
institution of private property. While the Soviets abolished private property
outright and imposed central planning, in fascist Italy and Nazi Germany most
property remained nominally in private hands but was completely controlled and
directed by government central command. His detailed summary of the Nazi
economic system clearly shows that (contrary to the Marxian claim) capitalism
was destroyed under national socialism.

 

[billc]

Another economist thinks that the national socialists are in fact socialists.

Born in Philadelphia in 1936, Walter E. Williams holds a bachelor's degree in economics from California State University (1965) and a master's degree (1967) and doctorate (1972) in economics from the University of California at Los Angeles. In
… read more
1980, he joined the faculty of George Mason University in Fairfax, Va., and is currently the John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics. He has also served on the faculties of Los Angeles City College (1967-69), California State University (1967-1971) and Temple University (1973-1980). From 1963 to 1967, he was a group supervisor of juvenile delinquents for the Los Angeles County Probation Department. More than 50 of his publications have appeared in scholarly journals such as Economic Inquiry, American Economic Review and Social Science Quarterly and popular publications such as Reader's Digest, The Wall Street Journal and Newsweek. He has made many TV and radio appearances on such programs as Milton Friedman's "Free to Choose," William F. Buckley's "Firing Line," "Face The Nation," "Nightline" and "Crossfire."

I hope he has his basic economics down as well.
http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2010/10/20/leftists,_progressives_and_socialists

 

[billc]

George Reisman George Reisman, Ph.D., is Pepperdine University Professor Emeritus of Economics and the author of Capitalism: A Treatise on Economics (Ottawa, Illinois: Jameson Books, 1996). His web site is www.capitalism.net. His blog is at georgereismansblog.blogspot.com. Send him mail. (A PDF replica of the complete book Capitalism: A Treatise on Economics can be downloaded to the reader's hard drive simply by clicking on the book’s title, immediately preceding, and then saving the file when it appears on the screen.)

http://mises.org/daily/1937

Why Nazism Was Socialism and Why Socialism Is TotalitarianMises Daily:Friday, November 11, 2005 by George Reisman

My purpose today is to make just two main points: (1) To show why Nazi Germany was a socialist state, not a capitalist one. And (2) to show why socialism, understood as an economic system based on government ownership of the means of production, positively requires a totalitarian dictatorship.
The identification of Nazi Germany as a socialist state was one of the many great contributions of Ludwig von Mises.

I hope this guy knows what he is talking about as well.

Wow, a lot of these Emeritus Professor guys think that the nazis were socialists and I guess they might believe they were a little more left than right, in any demension.

 

[billc]

Oh Josh, you were saying your Ph.D.s in economics and political science were from where again?

 

[Josh Oakley]

Rudy (R.J.) Rummel is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science. He has published twenty-four nonfiction books (one that received an award for being among the most referenced; another was rated the 26th most important of the last century), six novels, and about 100 peer-reviewed professional articles; has received the Susan Strange Award of the International Studies Association in 1999 for having intellectually most challenged the field; and in 2003 was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Conflict Processes Section, American Political Science Association. He has been frequently nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. His website is here.

http://democraticpeace.wordpress.com/2009/05/23/hitler-was-a-socialist/



His book, "Death by Government" is great. I think I donated my copy to the library so eventually I'll have to reaquire it for my kindle.

I just hope he has his basics on political science down.

Also, another great book, "Property and Freedom," By Richard Pipes.

From wikipedia on Mr. Pipes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pipes



http://www.fff.org/freedom/0999h.asp

NOW there's something to work with.