A debate on Unions.

Bob Hubbard

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Opening Statement
Unions. Organized crime, murder and mayhem, depriving people of their rights, destroying jobs and industries since 1877.

Melissa Grace This is why jobs are shipped overseas. It's not because the naughty Republicans are shipping them over.
about an hour ago · Like · 2
Dave Greenlaw My sentiments exactly Melissa. I've been saying the same thing for years - although up here in Canada it's supposed to be the nasty Conservatives who have done so - but none of my liberal friends care to listen.
about an hour ago · Like
Dave Greenlaw If the union leadership didn't price their workers out of the market, then maybe the market would still be here on our shores.
about an hour ago · Like · 1
Bob Hubbard Unions today are as outdated as Betamax, and about as likely to ever be useful again, IMO.
about an hour ago · Like · 2
Dave Greenlaw Careful Bob, Betamax is still useful and in use. Albeit only in those newsrooms that have yet to go fully digital. ^_~
about an hour ago · Like
Melissa Grace My favorite argument is that I'll "be sorry when THEY ship my job overseas." I'm a teacher.
about an hour ago · Like
Dave Greenlaw Melissa, my cousin (also named Melissa) is a teacher. I have nothing but respect for teachers who care enough to do what they do. I have nothing but contempt for the leaders of any union - including teacher's unions - who care more about their ideology and funding their pet politicians (either directly or thourgh third-party attack ads against their opponants) instead of the interests of their rank and file members.
about an hour ago · Like
Timothy Phelan When is the last time you worked for a Union? and please say one besides tops or the such, which is so toothless that it can't do anything to protect anyone. I worked for a Union, it stuck for the workers, but it tried to work with the company, I say tried because the company wasn't interested in the employee's welfare in the least. We didn't have gold medical plans nor high salaries, the people there were incredibly hard working. If you didn't work, you got fired, Yea, you can get fired from unions if there is a legitimate reason. I now work at a company where I don't have a Union. Great, this company is 100% different from the first one I spoke about. There I was very happy I had someone helping us.
about an hour ago · Like
Bob Hubbard Tim, my research into unions backs up my statement 100%. Article will be reposted in a few weeks.
about an hour ago · Like
Timothy Phelan Your research? Did you spend 15 years researching it? Because I spent 15 years researching it, from being a worker on the floor to fighting to protect the workers on a day to day basis, as a chief steward and Union President. So excuse me if I'm not impressed by your research
about an hour ago · Like
Dave Greenlaw Timothy, all good points. Yes, not all unions are bad, and not all corporations are on the side of the angels. However, when people continuously hear of union leaders - especially public sector union leaders - who put their own Ideology above the interests of their own members, or are more then willing to hold entire communities hostage by withholding their member's services, then you can hopefully understand where the hostility comes from.
about an hour ago · Like
Bob Hubbard Right. You haven't seen it yet already dismiss it. I'm a capitalist. I'm a business owner. Answer 1 question: If unions are so great, why are most if not none of the top 100 places to work in the US Union shops?
about an hour ago · Like · 1
Bob Hubbard http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?70840-Labor-Union-Myths-By-Bob-Hubbard
Labor Union Myths By Bob Hubbard
www.martialtalk.com
Labor Union Myths By Bob Hubbard Ask anyone. Without the Union, American's ...See More
about an hour ago · Like ·
Timothy Phelan Bob, perhaps you forget, we had this arguement before about Union, and you posted your link before, and I have read it before
about an hour ago · Like
Bob Hubbard My position stands. Unions = obsolete, criminal organizations that actively work to hurt workers and enrich an elite few. You will -never- convince me otherwise when the history of them shows them to be corrupt, violent and criminal.
about an hour ago · Like
Timothy Phelan Ah now who is not open minded Bob? The person who worked in them or the person who has a position and looks for facts to back it up?
about an hour ago · Like
Timothy Phelan There are corrupt cops, that doesn't make them all corrupt, there are corrupt politicians, that doesn't make them all corrupt. The problem with stereotypes is that they are STEREOTYPES
about an hour ago · Like
Bob Hubbard Tim, I know people who are lifers at Tops, never had a bad day ever. Can't convince them the company should be called 'Bottom'. Don't mean jack. You had a good experience. Good for you. I know plenty of folks who had bad ones.

Unions today are infiltrated by organized crime. Not all of em, but enough.
http://itmakessenseblog.com/2011/01/28/top-ten-union-corruption-stories-of-the-year/
Top Ten Union Corruption Stories of the Year
itmakessenseblog.com
Submitted by Carl Horowitz on Tue, 01/11/2011 - 16:05 Organized labor, masters o...See More
about an hour ago · Like ·
Bob Hubbard I could spend a few hours posting links. Wave the Union flag all ya want....I guarantee this: I'll never work for a union company, and any company of mine that tries to unionize will shut down.
about an hour ago · Like
Timothy Phelan oh god Bob, and how many stories can you pull from history or the news about companies treating people like crap? About safety regulations that arent' followed because of the cost? The difference is that I don't paint every company with the same brush, because I realize life isn't white and black, some companies are good, some or bad, some Unions are Good, and some are bad
59 minutes ago · Like
Timothy Phelan Well the Company I worked for never shut down because they were making way too much money to do that.
59 minutes ago · Like
Timothy Phelan And I am not waving the Union flag, I am replying to your slander against all Unions
58 minutes ago · Like
Melissa Grace I have to say that the people in charge of my local union are 100% for the teachers and do much to prevent administration from disrupting our teaching time and work. The national organization is useless.
56 minutes ago · Like · 1
John Tygart what killed the american auto industry? UNIONS
56 minutes ago · Like · 1
John Tygart what killed the us steel industry? UNIONS
56 minutes ago · Like · 1
John Tygart what killed the american manufacturing base? UNIONS
56 minutes ago · Like · 1
John Tygart who keeps child molesting teachers employed? UNIONS
55 minutes ago · Like
Melissa Grace I think it is part the American people who want cheap consumer goods. They want it all, they want it now, and they don't care that it came from China, as long as they can look as though they have it all.
54 minutes ago · Like · 1
Timothy Phelan Actually the steel industry was killed by fair trade, that wasn't fair trade. The Chinse Government gave it's industry infrastructure for free, gave them the raw material for free , or did you really think they could send a 300lb press frame from China to America, including shipping for a final cost of $50. France took over all the retirement expenses of their Steel industries and then completed on the Free Market.
53 minutes ago · Like
Jeffrey Magoni My wife works for Brown University, and while she is a salaried non-union employee, there is a large population of the workforce at the University that are unionized. She has told me she has heard nothing but great things about the Unions which represent the various employees there. Just from looking at their job postings for union positions, the same jobs outside of the university earn significantly less. Not to mention the superior benefits. I don't think all unions are bad, it seems your experiences with them have just been less than favorable. There's good and bad in every situation. I'll agree that unions are mostly obsolete and unfavorable, but not completely.
52 minutes ago · Like
Timothy Phelan Fair trade killed many more jobs than Union
52 minutes ago · Like
Bob Hubbard Tim, it's not slander. For 1, this it typing, not speaking. 2 for it to be libel it would have to be false. It's not. 3, it might be defamation of character, but in my OPINION unions have little character. They are run by characters, who take money out of hard working folks pockets, buy themselves fancy cars and big houses while the hard working American gets a snow job and a load of BS.

There's reasons why union membership is again heading for all time lows. People are getting tired of trading 1 massa in for another.

I like the idea of calling my own shots. I dislike being told "you must join this club in order to work". I'm not going to 'pay to play". Not how I roll.
52 minutes ago · Like · 1
Timothy Phelan Then don't join one, but the fact that you don't want to be part of it doesn't make it evil. And the reason they are going down the tubes is more because free trade has destroyed the industrial base they represent. Don't confuse the victims with the cause.
50 minutes ago · Like
Timothy Phelan My apologies Bob, yes you are guilty of libel, not slander, sorry for my error
49 minutes ago · Like
John Tygart jeff, the fact that the union job pays more is why the country is broke. you cant mandate higher pay, AND retirement AND health insurance AND education reembursment for free. When it is a university, that means tuition HAS to rise, that means MORE debt, that means MORE inflation, and that means your money is worth LESS.
48 minutes ago · Like · 1
Timothy Phelan But as said, we have gone through all this before, evidently you hit your reset button and forgot all of the past discussion.
48 minutes ago · Like
Dave Greenlaw Melissa, an excellent comment...one that I've been saying for years. In fact, probably the best commentary along that line is JibJab's video "Big Box Store" (Sadly though, from reading the comments section for that video on YouTube, a LOT of people just did NOT get it.)
47 minutes ago · Like
Timothy Phelan Or when people earn more, they have more money to spend and that improves the economy
47 minutes ago · Like
Bob Hubbard For it to be libel it would have to be false. It's not.
reset button, maybe. FB doesn't make such discussion as this easy to track, which is why I favor forums over SM BS.
46 minutes ago · Like
John Tygart then millionaires and billionaires are GOOD for the economy? public unions are one thing, when government jobs are unionized is when it gets REAL bad
46 minutes ago · Like
John Tygart no, on second thought, ALL unions are bad
46 minutes ago · Like
Bob Hubbard http://www.mackinac.org/14576
The Latest in Union Crime in Michigan
www.mackinac.org
An article on liberty and free markets as sound public policy for Michigan.
45 minutes ago · Like ·
Timothy Phelan
No John, because they don't put the money back into circulation.
45 minutes ago · Like
Jeffrey Magoni
John, Brown University paying a higher wage has nothing to do with our country being broke. It was an example of a favorable Union experience, in response to Bob's bad experiences. That's all.
45 minutes ago · Like
Bob Hubbard
http://www.mackinac.org/14767
Union Corruption — The Latest from DOL
www.mackinac.org
An article on liberty and free markets as sound public policy for Michigan.
45 minutes ago · Like ·
Jeffrey Magoni
Our country is broke because of irresponsible tax and spend policies..
44 minutes ago · Like · 1
Bob Hubbard
http://workerfreedom.org/senate-opens-flood-gates-union-crime-a3205
Senate Opens Flood Gates for Union Crime
www.workerfreedom.org
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Brian M Johnson 22 OCTOBER 2007 202-785-0266
44 minutes ago · Like ·
Timothy Phelan
Don't bother Jeff It is black and white to them, Unions bad=bad to them, damn the reality or truth.
44 minutes ago · Like
John Tygart
spending too much yes, like in union pensions and mandated unionized healthcare for LIFE
44 minutes ago · Like · 1
Bob Hubbard
Tim, question for you. How does one fire a utter-crap teacher in NYC?
Answer, you don't. Union stops that from happening. Kids keep suffering.
43 minutes ago · Like
John Tygart
state employees unions are a large part of what bankruped califonia
43 minutes ago · Like · 1
Dave Greenlaw
Timothy, it's just as black and white for you as well. Except that in your case it's "All unions can do no bad."
42 minutes ago · Like
Timothy Phelan
Bob, I dont' believe you. I worked at a Union, you fire any ultra crap person by documenting it and proving it. Remember, any time a Union and company disagree, it eventually goes to an impartial, mutually agreed upon person to decide.
42 minutes ago · Like
John Tygart
the reality is that unions suck ***, and protect the weak lame and lazy, the child molesting teacher, the abusive cop
41 minutes ago · Like
Timothy Phelan
Except I readily agree that some unions are bad. I just tar them all with the same brush
41 minutes ago · Like
Bob Hubbard
Tim, the "you can't fire them" came straight from the folks running the schools in NYC. I'll find the link so you can dismiss it in a few minutes.
41 minutes ago · Like
John Tygart
In 1997 a Brooklyn teacher was accused of attempting to molest a sixth-grade girl at PS 138. As it happened, he admitted the behavior, but no criminal charges were filed when all was said and done. Still one would think the fact that he ina...See More
40 minutes ago · Like
John Tygart
unions suck ***, period
40 minutes ago · Like
Bob Hubbard
http://teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.cfm
Keeping Bad Teachers in Front of Students | Teachers Union Facts
www.teachersunionexposed.com
According to the pro-education reform documentary Waiting for ‘Superman,’ one ou...See More
40 minutes ago · Like ·
John Tygart
http://emergingcorruption.com/2010/12/child-molesting-teacher-cant-be-fired-thanks-to-union/
Child Molesting Teacher Can’t Be Fired Thanks to Union — Emerging Corruption
emergingcorruption.com
In 1997 a Brooklyn teacher was accused of attempting to molest a sixth-grade gir...See More
40 minutes ago · Like ·
Jeffrey Magoni
LOL John, once again how does a Private IVY LEAGUE University cause a drag on society? In fact, they keep our failing city afloat..
40 minutes ago · Like
Bob Hubbard
http://www.chicagonow.com/publius-f...esting-teacher-cant-be-fired-thanks-to-union/
Child Molesting Teacher Can't Be Fired Thanks to Union
www.chicagonow.com
‎-By Warner Todd Huston In 1997 a Brooklyn teacher was accused of attempting to ...See More
40 minutes ago · Like ·
Timothy Phelan
God John, I am not saying that Unions are saints, but you can't blame every Union for what happens in one, if that was true, then no one should ever go to church because of what the catholic church let happen to the children who trusted the priests
39 minutes ago · Like
Melissa Grace
Actually, teachers CAN be fired. We're in the middle of a case at my school. Not a molestation case but one where a teacher handled a fight inappropriately. He'll be dismissed with due process.
38 minutes ago · Like
Bob Hubbard
I can post tens of thousands more links.

Are all unions bad? No. Just most, IMO.
I stick by my view that they are corrupt, obsolete and a drag on America.
38 minutes ago · Like
John Tygart
my MOTHER was union, and forced to strike, forced to NOT get another job, forced to walk the picket lines FORCED to live on strike wages, FORCED to join in the first place.
36 minutes ago · Like
John Tygart
unions are mobs, and most are controlled BY the mob
36 minutes ago · Like
Bob Hubbard
and don't get me started on the Church. They sell a couple of paintings in the Vatican they could feed every hungry catholic in the US for a year. :D
36 minutes ago · Like
Timothy Phelan
Bob, Because ONE or TWO or FIFTY Unions aren't good, it doesn't make all unions bad. Yes, sometimes Unions keep someone in a job, when they should be fired, but sometimes the reason is the company doesn't want to abide by the contract and ...See More
36 minutes ago · Like
Dave Greenlaw
No Timothy, not all unions are bad, but it is the bad ones that ARE causing ALL of them to be painted with the same brush. It's the same way unionists claim that ALL employers are evil because of a few bad ones who act inappropriately.
36 minutes ago · Like
Timothy Phelan
I was a Unionist, I never said that all Business was bad, just that one. The next job I had, the management was shocked how I so rarely got upset when they made changes, while others were getting upset. My response, I worked for Evil, you aren't it.
35 minutes ago · Like
Bob Hubbard
So Tim, question. If a union member on the job were to say, take a crap on my front lawn, should he be fired? Stupid sounding question by according to the Postal Workers union the answer is no.
32 minutes ago · Like
Bob Hubbard
Question: If a group of union members were to say, storm a business, take hostages, and hold them for several hours, while destroying property, should they be you know, arrested and fined? Not according to The International Longshore and Warehouse Union which in fact did that last September.
29 minutes ago · Like
Timothy Phelan
Let me answer it slightly differently. If I, as a Union Officer, was presented with someone who wanted to file a grievance over that, My first question would be did you do it? If he said yes, then I would say that we were not going to fight...See More
28 minutes ago · Like
Timothy Phelan
Bob, anyone, who storms a business and takes a hostage should be arrested. And you keep missing the point that I dont' say all Unions are great, I am saying some are great and some are ******, same as some businesses are great and some you need a Union to protect you.
26 minutes ago · Like
Bob Hubbard
http://michellemalkin.com/page/2/?s=union
Michelle Malkin » Search Results » union
michellemalkin.com
Michelle Malkin
26 minutes ago · Like ·
Bob Hubbard
http://michellemalkin.com/2011/09/3...tage-thugs-threaten-to-do-what-we-have-to-do/
Michelle Malkin » Big Labor thug watch: Judge fines longshore union $250,000 for sabotage; thugs th
michellemalkin.com
Big Labor thug watch: Judge fines longshore union $250,000 for sabotage; thugs threaten to “do what we have to do”
25 minutes ago · Like ·
Timothy Phelan
The company fired someone for sleeping on the job, third warning. He wanted to meet with me to discuss his case, I told him you don't have a case, you were sleeping on the job, you aren't going to get your job back. He said, well I was pretending to make a point, and I said they you are stupid and you still aren't getting your job back
25 minutes ago · Unlike · 1
Timothy Phelan
The company also told a guy who got a flat on his tire, that he wasn't going to be paid for two days pay over thanksgiving because he was 5 minutes late the day before. This was the first time he was late in 20 years. People who they "liked" came in with a half hour left on the day and got paid, that I grieved and won
21 minutes ago · Unlike · 1
Bob Hubbard
Tim, you misunderstand I think. I'm not saying do away with them, stop people from organizing, etc. In fact, I'm not even denying that in some cases you might actually need them. (Hell, like was established, some folks still need Betamax g...See More
21 minutes ago · Like
Bob Hubbard Hell, in a dump like Tops you fricken need one I think...shame theirs is a joke.
20 minutes ago · Like
Timothy Phelan
Bob, I would be happy to have coffee with you. I would say that half of my friends are very conservative and half are very liberal. I'm actually in the middle. I believe we need a safety net for when terrible things happen to people, I d...See More
16 minutes ago · Unlike · 1
Scott Torwalt
Bob, your finding the extremes and going on as though all unions do that. They can say what they want but what the ILWU did crossed so many lines that a lot of the other trades distanced themselves from the ILWU in response. The vast majori...See More
9 minutes ago · Like
Jason Roy
a sticky conversation - and hard to type into a FB rant - but would say Unions are still important and strive to maintain and increase workers rights and wages - because they "fixed" problems in the past does not mean they went away and by ...See More
7 minutes ago · Like
Timothy Phelan
Back in the late 90's I worked full time in a shop, was Union President and at the same time was a co-owner of a business. We had two employees. My partner took the same position as you, that he would dissolve the company if our two workers unionized. Neither of them ever felt the need to, so I guess that says something about how we treated them. :)
5 minutes ago · Like
Bob Hubbard
You know, I really wish all of you were on MartialTalk. This is something I'd love to see there kicking up traffic and be better 'stored' for reference.
4 minutes ago · Like
Timothy Phelan
copy and paste it there
4 minutes ago · Like
http://www.facebook.com/bobmhubbard/posts/174317732673885?ref=notif&notif_t=share_comment
 

Sukerkin

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Those people giving the Facepalm equivalent of Neg Rep to Mr. Phelan deserve a very big slap to see if it knocks some sense into them.

Bob this is one of those issues on which your position fills me with disbelief - if it wasn't for the fact that you are talking about American unions it is something we could fall-out over. Because you are talking about American Unions, not something I know a huge amount about, I can only hope that you are presenting the worst as the norm. For if you are not, then organised labour is not doing what it is supposed to i.e. making sure the employer doesn't enslave the workers but doing it in a way that does not force the company out of business.

This is on the back of my annual 'pay-cut' of course, so I am likely to be a little bitter - by which I mean that it's the first rise for five years that is more than £250 and it is still less than inflation for 2011 alone (despite the company winning contracts in the tens of millions). I would give my eye-teeth for me and my co-workers to have a union to represent us.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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Suk, I could post thousands and I do mean thousands of examples of corruption regarding unions in the US. Cases where unions have destroyed private property, assaulted and in many many cases murdered people. While I'll agree that they did do some good in the past, and at times are still useful, I stick to my position that they are currently obsolete, at least in the US. Other nations with different labor laws, will have differing needs. I found it appauling for example when Tez mentioned a security guard in the UK makes under $2 an hour. In the US the -least- they would get is our minimum wage, which is currently $7.25/hr with over 40 hrs at time and a half. http://www.dol.gov/WHD/

Unions in the US are out of control. Union reps hold key positions in the administration, and policy is very favorable towards them, to the detriment of employers and often the workers. My old article hints at things.

Here's a few more cases, old but when the roots are rotten......

 

billc

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Look...for...the...Union label...or else!!


If you look at the various states here in the U.S. that are broke, they will have a government union sucking them dry, and which will fight tooth and nail to keep any reforms from keeping their pensions or the state solvent.
 

Empty Hands

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Suk, I could post thousands and I do mean thousands of examples of corruption regarding unions in the US. Cases where unions have destroyed private property, assaulted and in many many cases murdered people.

You could say the same for corporations. Union Carbide is responsible for the deaths of about 25,000 people in one single disaster through negligence. Blackwater/Xe covered up the rape of an employee. United Fruit is responsible for the term "banana republic" and is likely responsible for at least one invasion and one massacre. Numerous anecdotes, which is all you have.

And yet I never see you say the same thing about all corporations. Or all religions since some churches cover up child abuse. Or all universities since some have covered up child abuse. Why not? They are just as culpable by your argument and your methods. Thus we are forced to conclude that your opposition is emotional and irrational, not based on your "research", since your "research" impeaches many other institutions which you do not condemn wholesale.

I mean really, "most" unions are run by the mob? Give me a break.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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My quotes based on my research and comments made by others who spent more time tracking money through the various groups. Maybe saying that 'many of the unions had ties to organized crime' would be a better choice of words?
 

Scott T

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Bob, I've been clicking on the wikilinks posted above, most notably the ones with the word massacre in them. Generally it was the miners being massacred...
 
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Bob Hubbard

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Bob, I've been clicking on the wikilinks posted above, most notably the ones with the word massacre in them. Generally it was the miners being massacred...

:)
 

Big Don

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Look...for...the...Union label...or else!!


If you look at the various states here in the U.S. that are broke, they will have a government union sucking them dry, and which will fight tooth and nail to keep any reforms from keeping their pensions or the state solvent.
QFT for the last part and rofl from the first part
 

Tez3

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One of the things that separate us I think is unions and their history, they are a very different animal here. While they did get powerful for a while it wasn't in the criminal manner more they wanted to dictate policies etc to the government, it was a political power they had. They believed strongly in their ethos mostly of socialism though I do remember one Civil Service Union being very Conservative. People here at the time of the miners stike were against what the union was doing, the leader Arthur Scargill said they were fighting for the coal industry as it was being destroyed by the Tories, people scoffed, said the unions were getting too powerful. Not powerful enough it would seem, the Tories did indeed destroy the coal industry putting ten of thousands out of work.

I can't comment on your unions, other than to say don't condemn unions worldwide because of your experience. Many trade unionists do good work for workers, often at the risk of their lives. Just because it doesn't work in the USA doesn't mean it's a bad idea or the unions are bad.
 

Carol

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Sweet Cthulu....I read the title of this thread and swore it said "A debate on Unicorns" :facepalm:

I really need to go to bed.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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Unicorns are delicious. The horn's the best part. ;)
 

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