Same Trick91 42
Master of Arts
Combat -
“to fight, struggle, contend”
Combat - Etymology, Origin & Meaning
In my mind “combat” is just not compatible with the focus/idea of Taiji. Taiji focus would be more in line with destuggle than destroy
The Difference between Longfist Kicks and Taiji Kicks
- Thread starter Appledog
- Start date
“to fight, struggle, contend”
Combat - Etymology, Origin & Meaning
In my mind “combat” is just not compatible with the focus/idea of Taiji. Taiji focus would be more in line with destuggle than destroy
Same Trick91 42
Master of Arts
It’s interesting, the traditional long Taiji form is a (ca)20 min long drill, and accordingly it’s advocated to be drilled 3 times in a row
Same Trick91 42
Master of Arts
this is actually in agreement with with what I mean, that TJQ practice hold deeper/higher values than mere kicking and punching
The 108 moves long Taiji form only take 4 minutes and 40 seconds.
The 108 moves long Taiji form only take 5 minutes and 52 seconds.
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Again, you can't end a fight with "deeper/higher values", but you can end a fight with "kick/punch".
Same Trick91 42
Master of Arts
Yes, you wrote previously -
“
Taiji has combat value
Because slow training speed, it's easy to coordinate body as a single unit.”
Same Trick91 42
Master of Arts
Yes Taiji people don’t strive to fight
I also state that:
4. Each Taiji move is either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale.
108/2 = 54 breath
Slow breathing speed = 12 breath per min = 5 sec per breath
54 breath x 5 sec = 270 sec = 4 min 30 sec
Same Trick91 42
Master of Arts
Yes that is if one treat taijiquan as an external long fist exercise, but then it isn’t really a taijiquan exercise anymore.
Yes it’s true, the taijiquan exercise is counted as postures 1,2,3..and so on up to 108(depending on(yang TJQ)linage it may be counted up to anything between 81-115 postures). However as the practice in itself tells it is not an exercise of 1, 2, 3 and so on but rather 0,108, meaning there are no several - start -stop - start - postures within the exercise but rather it’s performed in one flow, so therefore there is no such of several postures of start-stop-start-stop-start-stop parameter for one’s breath to coordinate with
Taiji came from long fist.
I still remember the 1st day that I learned Chang Taiji from my teacher. He said very clearly, "If you just finished your running, you should do your Taiji form in much faster speed. How fast that your breath is how fast that you do your Taiji fom." This is also the 1st day that I will tell all my new Chang Taiji students - normal breathing speed defines Taiji form speed.
This Taiji video was created 39 years ago. This "1 Taiji move equal to 1 inhale or 1 exhale" guideline has been followed all these years and has never been changed.
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Same Trick91 42
Master of Arts
yes you are right in the respect that the pure physical form is derived from long fist boxing.
However in the respect of TJQ the physical form is used as a medium to apply the specific mind methods(visualizations) that’s central for it to be an taijiquan exercise, without these central methods it’s just another long fist exercise, which is not bad, it may be used to teach beginners, specifically kids. The Taiji level requires a specific focus that [usually] requires a level of maturity.
OP
OP
Appledog52 25
Brown Belt
- Thread starter
- #52
This is compelling but.. There is a credible theory that a kind of internal art from before was combined with taizu changquan. And that this combined art was layered on to longfist as we know it today. In such a case it is not that taiji comes from longfist but that longfist is the vehicle by which the other art was promulgated from that point.
This is the opposite advice of what I was given. In fact I would point out specific qigong moves and moves especially in the opening of Taiji that violate this breath principle. Re chang style taiji it's more like taiji looked at through the eyes of other martial arts. Quite common actually -- it isn't that it's not taiji (it is) but they try to train it with the understanding of the other arts. Whether or not they will be successful will be revealed by time.
Actually, the ending of Taiji that violate this breath principle. Any Taiji move that has no MA application doesn't have to follow this breath principle. The ending of Taiji move (close Taiji) is used to "save Qi in Dantian" that has no martial application in it.
The opening of Taiji (open position stance) is considered 2 moves:
- Separate opponent's arms from his head.
- Push both of his arms down at his elbow joints.
Taiji beginning move - open position stance.
- Arms raise up (inhale).
- Arms drop down (exhale).
Taiji ending move - close Taiji.
- Arms separate above head (inhale).
- Arms drop and cross in front of chest (exhale).
- Arms separate and expand chest (inhale).
- Arms drop next to knees (exhale).
Chang Taiji training has MA application in mind. If you train Taiji form has no MA application in mind (or you don't care about MA application), you don't have to follow the breath principle.
When you swing your baseball bat (you train for application - hit the ball), do you do it as 1 exhale, or do you do it as exhale, inhale, exhale, ...?
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Same Trick91 42
Master of Arts
Yes, I have come to understand Chang Taiji is somewhat one sided and simpler exercise , which kind of meaning one step by step performs a variety of prearranged wrestling moves(t posture 1, posture 2,posture3 and so on) against an visualized opponent in front of you, and yes of course that is martial arts mindset, but one sided.
However another level of practice is visualize simultaneous omnipresent forces acting upon ones presence , in this case one do not visualize opponents but other mediums that pull and/or push on one’s presence from all sides simultaneously at all time nonstop during the exercise performance [ which takes about 20 min], it requires another level of focus .
This method is purely directed toward overall sensing and focus.
If one would put this method in relation to combat, then one could perhaps say it’s a method that recognizes the unpredictably of combat, that there are no prearranged attacks and defenses in actual combat
Jack Xu36 4
Yellow Belt
Long time taiji person here, and I will offer the sword player's view since nobody has. In the sword forms I teach, half the balance postures are one legged: du li with the sword extended, lifting the knee into a thrust, and so on. The sword is merciless about it. If your standing leg is not rooted and your waist is not leading, the tip of the blade wobbles and everyone in the room can see it. Empty hand hides weak balance. A 700 gram sword does not.
When I correct a student on those postures, I do not watch the lifted leg at all. I watch the standing foot. If the toes are gripping the floor, the waist has already checked out. My own teacher used to make us hold them with the sword for a full minute. Nobody shook in the leg. Everybody shook in the shoulders. That was the lesson.
That is what I think the taiji kick is actually training. The kick is not there to kick anyone. It is a balance exam you give yourself: shift all the weight into one leg without the shoulders tipping, extend the other leg without borrowing momentum from the torso, come back down without a thud. Do that slowly and the standing leg learns more than the kicking leg ever will.
On bent versus straight: in our line the knee stays soft until the last moment of extension, and even then never locked. I was told a locked knee is a locked kua, and a locked kua means the waist stopped leading. No idea if that is universal, but it matches what the sword tells me.
So my vote lands with the precondition idea. Longfist trains the kick. Taiji trains the person standing underneath the kick.
When I correct a student on those postures, I do not watch the lifted leg at all. I watch the standing foot. If the toes are gripping the floor, the waist has already checked out. My own teacher used to make us hold them with the sword for a full minute. Nobody shook in the leg. Everybody shook in the shoulders. That was the lesson.
That is what I think the taiji kick is actually training. The kick is not there to kick anyone. It is a balance exam you give yourself: shift all the weight into one leg without the shoulders tipping, extend the other leg without borrowing momentum from the torso, come back down without a thud. Do that slowly and the standing leg learns more than the kicking leg ever will.
On bent versus straight: in our line the knee stays soft until the last moment of extension, and even then never locked. I was told a locked knee is a locked kua, and a locked kua means the waist stopped leading. No idea if that is universal, but it matches what the sword tells me.
So my vote lands with the precondition idea. Longfist trains the kick. Taiji trains the person standing underneath the kick.
Wing Woo Gar81 5
Grandmaster
Well said.
A: I use my kick to knock down my opponent. When I kick, my gravity center is in front of my base.
B: I use my kick to check my own balance. When I kick, my gravity center is within my base.
What you have just said is, "Long fist train for combat. Taiji train for health/self-cultivation".
IMO, whenever the health/self-cultivation appears in any combat discussion (or the other way around), the discussion will end nowhere. After that, it's just like a chicken talk to a duck.
Taiji is a combat art in my opinion. Is Taiji a combat art in your opinion?
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wanderingstudent
Orange Belt
Essentially you are in horse stance, you shift your weight to your rear leg, widen your stance towards the mound, stepping the front foot slightly back and pointed at the mound. Next, turn your hips toward the mound, your torso follows the hips, shoulders follow the torso, elbows follow the shoulders, hands follow the elbows, weight is shifted forward and the rear leg is allowed to rotate towards the mound. This is both proper MA energy transfer and Baseball Hitting mechanics. Working in a sports environment, I offer watch athletes and think how MA can help improve their performance. I have also had conversations with coaches about proper technique. It is all a small world and very interesting.
windwalker099146 177
Master of Arts
You speak first of “Chang Taiji,” and then simply of “Taiji.”
Your breathing principle comes from your teacher's Chang Taiji method. Why do you assume that a training method specific to Chang Taiji defines how other Taiji methods should be practiced?
More broadly, you continue to describe Taiji in terms of ordinary mechanics—balance, body mass, waist movement, breath and application. What specifically distinguishes the mechanics you describe from those of any other martial art using coordinated whole-body force?
If there is no fundamental difference in how the force is produced and transmitted, what makes it Taiji rather than simply another martial method performed through a Taiji form?
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