The Difference between Longfist Kicks and Taiji Kicks

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

what makes it Taiji ...

It's meaningless to compare

- long fist front kick and Taiji front kick.
- Praying mantis uppercut and boxing uppercut.
- SC hip throw and Judo hip throw.
- Eagle claw wrist lock and Aikido wrist lock.

I don't let the term "style" to set up any physical limitation on myself. When I throw a kick, it's my kick. it's not long fist kick, Taiji kick, or ...

I'm talking about MA in general. The term "style" has no meaning to me. If I can land my kick on my opponent's chest and knock him down, I can't careless whether I may use long fist kick, Taiji kick, Karate kick, TKD kick, or MT kick.

IMO, kick/lock/throw are above all MA styles. Even uppercut/hook/overhand are above all MA styles.

 

[windwalker099114 144]

I'm talking about MA in general. The term "style" has no meaning to me. If I can land my kick on my opponent's chest and knock him down, I can't careless whether I may use long fist kick, Taiji kick, Karate kick, TKD kick, or MT kick.

If style has no meaning to you, why did you enter a thread about the difference between Longfist and Taiji kicks?

Why argue for a Chang Taiji breathing principle?
Why identify your method as Taiji if these distinctions have no meaning?

You asked what differentiates a Longfist kick from a Taiji kick.
Now, when asked what specifically makes the mechanics you describe Taiji, you say that when you kick, it is simply “your kick.”

I actually agree with that—to a point. When a method has been deeply internalized, one no longer needs to consciously identify a movement by style. The method has shaped the practitioner, the movement expresses that method.

But that doesn't make the underlying differences between methods meaningless. It makes the question even more relevant:

What method has shaped the way you move?

If Taiji, Longfist, Karate, TKD and Muay Thai are simply interchangeable ways of producing the same martial result, then what distinguishes the method being trained?

Calling one “combat Taiji” doesn't explain what makes the underlying method Taiji.

You can't use distinctions between styles to establish principles of Taiji and then dismiss those distinctions when asked what makes your own method Taiji.

 

[Appledog50 3]

You speak first of “Chang Taiji,” and then simply of “Taiji.”

Your breathing principle comes from your teacher's Chang Taiji method. Why do you assume that a training method specific to Chang Taiji defines how other Taiji methods should be practiced?

More broadly, you continue to describe Taiji in terms of ordinary mechanics—balance, body mass, waist movement, breath and application. What specifically distinguishes the mechanics you describe from those of any other martial art using coordinated whole-body force?

If there is no fundamental difference in how the force is produced and transmitted, what makes it Taiji rather than simply another martial method performed through a Taiji form?

I think it was Wang Zongyue who once said, 斯技旁門甚多

 

[Jack Xu6 3]

Appreciate that. The sword has been the most honest teacher I have had. It never lies about what your body is doing.

 

[windwalker099114 144]

I think the full passage is worth posting,

斯技旁门甚多，虽势有区别，概不外壮欺弱、慢让快耳。
There are many side methods in this art. Although their forms differ, generally they amount to the strong overcoming the weak and the slow yielding to the fast.

有力打无力，手慢让手快，是皆先天自然之能，非关学力而有为也。
The strong defeating the weak, and the slow hand yielding to the fast hand—these are natural abilities, not the result of learned skill.

察“四两拨千斤”之句，显非力胜；观耄耋御众之形，快何能为？
Consider “four ounces deflect a thousand pounds”: clearly this is not victory through strength. Observe an old person dealing with many—what can speed accomplish?

立如秤准，活似车轮，偏沉则随，双重则滞。
Stand balanced like a scale; move freely like a wheel. When weight settles to one side, one can follow; double-weighting produces stagnation.

每见数年纯功，不能运化者，率皆自为人制，双重之病未悟耳。
We often see people who have practiced diligently for years yet cannot transform incoming force. Generally, they remain controlled by others because they have not understood the fault of double-weighting.

欲避此病，须知阴阳；粘即是走，走即是粘，阳不离阴，阴不离阳；阴阳相济，方为懂劲。
To avoid this fault, one must understand yin and yang. Adhering is yielding; yielding is adhering. Yang does not leave yin, nor yin leave yang. Only when yin and yang mutually complement one another is there understanding of jin.

懂劲后，愈练愈精，默识揣摩，渐至从心所欲。
After understanding jin, continued practice brings increasing refinement. Through silent recognition and careful investigation, one gradually reaches the point of doing as the heart-mind wishes.

本是舍己从人，多误舍近求远。所谓差之毫厘，谬之千里。学者不可不详辨焉。是为论。
Fundamentally, it is to give up oneself and follow the other. Many mistakenly abandon what is near to seek what is far away. A difference of a hair's breadth leads to an error of a thousand li. The student must carefully distinguish these things.



学者不可不详辨焉 — the student must carefully distinguish these things.

indeed

 

[Same Trick59 10]

A: I use my kick to knock down my opponent. When I kick, my gravity center is in front of my base.
B: I use my kick to check my own balance. When I kick, my gravity center is within my base.

What you have just said is, "Long fist train for combat. Taiji train for health/self-cultivation".

IMO, whenever the health/self-cultivation appears in any combat discussion (or the other way around), the discussion will end nowhere. After that, it's just like a chicken talk to a duck.

Taiji is a combat art in my opinion. Is Taiji a combat art in your opinion?

So in Chang taiji 108 form one throw the body forward when kicking ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

So in Chang taiji 108 form one throw the body forward when kicking ?

Chang Taiji shares the same 108 moves as Yang Taiji has. Only 6 moves are changed in Chang Taiji.

1. Move your gravity center to be outside of your base.
2. Let the gravity to pull you forward.
3. You then regain your balance back.

Step 2 is also missing in Chang Taiji as well.

Without lean body forward, I can't achieve "downward curve" in my front kick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

If style has no meaning to you, why did you enter a thread about the difference between Longfist and Taiji kicks?

Because I have said there is no difference between long fist kick and Taiji kick.

 

[windwalker099114 144]

Because I have said there is no difference between long fist kick and Taiji kick.

I find your comments interesting at times...confusing at others
as now.

You cannot:

Enter a thread about the difference between Longfist and Taiji kicks
Argue for a specific Chang Taiji breathing principle
Identify the method you're discussing as Taiji

And then say:

“There is no difference between Longfist and Taiji kicks.”
“Style has no meaning to me.”

If there is no difference, why argue the distinction?
Why defend a Chang Taiji principle? Why identify the method as Taiji?

Either the distinction has meaning, or it doesn't.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

Either the distinction has meaning, or it doesn't.

As I have said, there is no "internal" way and external way. There is only the right way and the wrong way.

The long fist system uses "nature breathing" as well. I have always believed it's wrong.

The day when my

- Taiji teacher Chang Tung-Sheng taught me that "The speed of 1 move should be equal to the time of either 1 inhale or 1 exhale".
- long fist teacher taught me that a front kick should contain a "downward curve".

It opened my eyes completely.

If one day these 2-piece information can be fed into AI, I'll be happy for that.

 

[windwalker099114 144]

If my information can help even just 1 person, I'll be happy for that.

A teacher says: “Here is what I learned. It may or may not apply to you. Test it for yourself.”

A preacher says: “Here is the truth. Other methods are wrong.”

You are free to decide what is right or wrong for your own practice, but you are not the arbiter of what is right or wrong outside of it. By dismissing other methods as simply “wrong,” you make your own practice the standard by which they are judged.

When I look at other people's practices, particularly when they post videos, I try to look at them through the framework they have described, regardless of whether I agree with it.

In many cases, I don't agree with the basic premises—but it's their practice, and the practice of those who follow that method. The differences you keep dismissing are precisely what distinguish one method from another.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

You are free to decide what is right or wrong for your own practice,

Master Chang Tung-Sheng said, "Many things are wrong in Taiji and someone has to stand up, tell the truth, and correct it".

- "抱虎归山 Carry tiger back to mountain" should be "饱虎归山 Well fed tiger return back to mountain" (抱 and 饱 both spell Bao).
- "扇通背 Move arm like fan" should be "肩通背 Shoulder extend to arm" (扇 and 肩 look similar in Chinese writting).
- "Double pulling" should have 1 hand down and 1 hand up.
- One should not turn his head back when doing "step back and repulse monkey".
- ...

If Master Chang could point out those 4 faults in Taiji, it won't be surprised that he could point out more faults in Taiji as well (such as proper breathing method, leg skill, ...)

 

[Same Trick59 10]

Chang Taiji shares the same 108 moves as Yang Taiji has. Only 6 moves are changed in Chang Taiji.

1. Move your gravity center to be outside of your base.
2. Let the gravity to pull you forward.
3. You then regain your balance back.

Step 2 is also missing in Chang Taiji as well.

Without lean body forward, I can't achieve "downward curve" in my front kick.

What six moves are that ?

 

[Same Trick59 10]

Master Chang Tung-Sheng said, "Many things are wrong in Taiji and someone has to stand up, tell the truth, and correct it".

- "抱虎归山 Carry tiger back to mountain" should be "饱虎归山 Well fed tiger return back to mountain" (抱 and 饱 both spell Bao).
- "扇通背 Move arm like fan" should be "肩通背 Shoulder extend to arm" (扇 and 肩 look similar in Chinese writting).
- "Double pulling" should have 1 hand down and 1 hand up.
- One should not turn his head back when doing "step back and repulse monkey".
- ...

If Master Chang could point out those 4 faults in Taiji, it won't be surprised that he could point out more faults in Taiji as well (such as proper breathing method, leg skill, ...)

Did Master Chang Tung-Sheng come to notice those ”fault” through his long-fist mastery or wrestling mastery ?( I’m thinking about “double pulling” and “looking back in repulse monkey move”)

 

[Same Trick59 10]

As I have said, there is no "internal" way and external way. There is only the right way and the wrong way.

The long fist system uses "nature breathing" as well. I have always believed it's wrong.

The day when my

- Taiji teacher Chang Tung-Sheng taught me that "The speed of 1 move should be equal to the time of either 1 inhale or 1 exhale".

But since the authentic Taiji form is one long continuous flow, there arent any distinct stops and starts within the exercise when exercised, just one flow, the breath can only be natural, cause you can hardly do one inhale/exhale during the 20 or so min it takes to complete the whole authentic TJQ form

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

But since the authentic Taiji form is one long continuous flow, there arent any distinct stops and starts within the exercise when exercised, just one flow, the breath can only be natural, cause you can hardly do one inhale/exhale during the 20 or so min it takes to complete the whole authentic TJQ form

The form is for teaching/learning only. The form is not for training. One should train drills instead.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

Did Master Chang Tung-Sheng come to notice those ”fault” through his long-fist mastery or wrestling mastery ?( I’m thinking about “double pulling” and “looking back in repulse monkey move”)

Double pulling - You need to use 1 hand to pull your opponent's wrist joint (face down). You also need to use another to pull his elbow joint (face up).

Step back repulse monkey - Your opponent is in front of you. You can't turn your head.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

What six moves are that ?

1. No head turning in step back repulse monkey.
2. Use double palm strike instead of double hook punch in twin peaks to the ear.
3. Replace Taiji cross leg by Xingyi Pi Quan with knee kick.
4. Add shin bite into hand play lute.
5. Use hook punch instead of hammer fist in striking tiger.
6. Add palm strike to the head in wide horse splitting mane.

 

[Same Trick59 10]

The form is for teaching/learning only. The form is not for training. One should train drills instead.

The authentic TJQ form is a most relevant drill

 

[Same Trick59 10]

Double pulling - You need to use 1 hand to pull your opponent's wrist joint (face down). You also need to use another to pull his elbow joint (face up).

Step back repulse monkey - Your opponent is in front of you. You can't turn your head.

In sense of Taiji one do not pull, one lead in the direction the opposing force goes, in so, there no need for forced pulling .

TJQ wise, Wherever the opposing is situated towards ones own position it’s much a matter of listening rather than locking eyes.