The Difference between Longfist Kicks and Taiji Kicks

[Kung Fu Wang100]

What makes this video "Taiji kick"? Just because the kick is in the Taiji form?

 

[Appledog38]

"After many years of practice, you will know."

He smiled. I laughed. And I went back to practice.

In time, I realized he was right.

How many years though?

He was right that something shifted. He never told you what. You didn’t understand the difference then, so it isn’t credible to treat that difference as settled. You dropped one art and took another. Fine—you had a good teacher. That still doesn’t establish an inherent difference in the movement.

In my lineage the purpose of an exercise has to be clear. There should be several roads to the same skill so the student can get it. You have to know what the point is even before you can do it, so that later you recognize the result and can keep training alone.

Maybe the movement itself carries a teaching beyond words. There is something to that. It doesn’t fix the larger problem.

There is survivorship bias here. The Malady of Zhou came from lack of fighting experience—the same problem in Tai Chi today. Some now say Tai Chi isn’t even a martial art. That only shows how many opinions exist and how little we can test them.

Successful fighters have existed in this world for a long time, so the distinction is not unknowable. You can still become competent in Yang-style Taiji. Going further without a living master you can question is a different kind of path.

What is the difference between a longfist kick and a Taiji kick?

Why assume there is one? There isn’t. The difference is not in the kick. It is in the person who throws it.

A kick is a kick. Just go straight.

 

[Appledog38]

What makes this video "Taiji kick"? Just because the kick is in the Taiji form?

Yes.

This is the truth, it may not be the ultimate truth of taijiquan, it may not be a satori or a kensho, but it adequately answers your question.

I really wish I had a lot of money, I would fly down to where you are and buy you expensive meals and gift you a box of expensive tea and have such a wonderful chat.

 

[Same Trick46]

Do you assume that Taiji people don't train drills by taking single move out of the form and repeat it left and right?

Thread’s about kicking, so I stay with that.
My stance on TJQ is that kicking and punching and such are not the main application of the Taijiquan exercise. As I stated, the Taiji form is the core exercise. It’s long smooth continuous flow from start to end should give a clue to the onlooker that the main importance of this exercise lies not in kicking and punching but in something fundamentally deeper/higher that precedes eventual kicking and punching. If that sense of deeper skill is successfully harnessed and developed then kicking and punching becomes something one simply may choose to do rather than a martial necessity, and so there’s no real need for kicking in TJQ

 

[Same Trick46]

Depends

Training in Taiji as an adjunct to another art can certainly help someone understand aspects of movement that their own art may not cover or emphasize.

Conversely, IME—and historically—training in other arts does not necessarily help deepen one's understanding or level of Taiji. In most cases, it may actually interfere with it.

The problem, as shown here, comes when someone begins calling what they do "Taiji," then asks why other Taiji practitioners don't do X or Y—or suggests that what they themselves are doing represents Taiji while what others are doing somehow lacks something.

At that point the question becomes: are you using Taiji to supplement what you already do, or have you actually changed the method through which you move to make it "taiji" ?

Something ultimately they have to answer for themselves....

A short story

meeting my second Taiji teacher long ago :

Locally known as Professor Chi, he was a teacher I was introduced to by Taiwanese soldiers attending training on the U.S. Army MIM-23 Hawk Missile System in Huntsville, Alabama—home of Redstone Arsenal, one of the U.S. Army's many training centers.

He told me he had studied directly with Cheng Man-ch'ing in Taiwan. As a high school teacher of Cheng's daughters, he had asked them to introduce him to their father. Cheng agreed to teach him, though not as a formal disciple.

At our first meeting, he asked to see my Taiji...

He was old, maybe in his 70s at the time..
After observing my movements, he remarked, "This is not Taiji, it's slow Shaolin."

I simply responded, "Okay." And so, my real training with him began.

He had me repeat only the opening movement. Each time I finished, he softly said, "Again."

For an hour, I repeated the same movement. I didn't know what he was looking for, but when he finally saw it, he gave a small nod. At the time, I didn't understand what had changed.

Each week, the process continued. If my movement was correct, he would add more. If it was not, he simply said "again"—over and over, always with a slight smile.

At one point, out of frustration, I asked, "How do I know if it's right or not?"

He replied in his soft, Taiwanese-accented English:

"After many years of practice, you will know."

He smiled. I laughed. And I went back to practice.

In time, I realized he was right.

Yes it may be counter productive dabbling in different methods at same time, especially with the CMA’s that all/most have their own peculiar body method practices, mixing such things may get o self hurt.

About the method of teaching -“do it over and over and it will eventually come” - is a way, but the long way. There are the “orally” teachings too. Combined the aha comes rather quicker…. Interesting about that ZMQ style teacher you had that just let you do, ZMQ actually gave away some secrets(the orally teaching).in public

 

[Wing Woo Gar34]

Depends

Training in Taiji as an adjunct to another art can certainly help someone understand aspects of movement that their own art may not cover or emphasize.

Conversely, IME—and historically—training in other arts does not necessarily help deepen one's understanding or level of Taiji. In most cases, it may actually interfere with it.

The problem, as shown here, comes when someone begins calling what they do "Taiji," then asks why other Taiji practitioners don't do X or Y—or suggests that what they themselves are doing represents Taiji while what others are doing somehow lacks something.

At that point the question becomes: are you using Taiji to supplement what you already do, or have you actually changed the method through which you move to make it "taiji" ?

Something ultimately they have to answer for themselves....

A short story

meeting my second Taiji teacher long ago :

Locally known as Professor Chi, he was a teacher I was introduced to by Taiwanese soldiers attending training on the U.S. Army MIM-23 Hawk Missile System in Huntsville, Alabama—home of Redstone Arsenal, one of the U.S. Army's many training centers.

He told me he had studied directly with Cheng Man-ch'ing in Taiwan. As a high school teacher of Cheng's daughters, he had asked them to introduce him to their father. Cheng agreed to teach him, though not as a formal disciple.

At our first meeting, he asked to see my Taiji...

He was old, maybe in his 70s at the time..
After observing my movements, he remarked, "This is not Taiji, it's slow Shaolin."

I simply responded, "Okay." And so, my real training with him began.

He had me repeat only the opening movement. Each time I finished, he softly said, "Again."

For an hour, I repeated the same movement. I didn't know what he was looking for, but when he finally saw it, he gave a small nod. At the time, I didn't understand what had changed.

Each week, the process continued. If my movement was correct, he would add more. If it was not, he simply said "again"—over and over, always with a slight smile.

At one point, out of frustration, I asked, "How do I know if it's right or not?"

He replied in his soft, Taiwanese-accented English:

"After many years of practice, you will know."

He smiled. I laughed. And I went back to practice.

In time, I realized he was right.

“ Now do it again” is a phrase I heard literally hundreds of times from my Sifu during Tai Chi Chuan practice. These days I hear it from Dr Yang.

 

[Wing Woo Gar34]

Depends

Training in Taiji as an adjunct to another art can certainly help someone understand aspects of movement that their own art may not cover or emphasize.

Conversely, IME—and historically—training in other arts does not necessarily help deepen one's understanding or level of Taiji. In most cases, it may actually interfere with it.

The problem, as shown here, comes when someone begins calling what they do "Taiji," then asks why other Taiji practitioners don't do X or Y—or suggests that what they themselves are doing represents Taiji while what others are doing somehow lacks something.

At that point the question becomes: are you using Taiji to supplement what you already do, or have you actually changed the method through which you move to make it "taiji" ?

Something ultimately they have to answer for themselves....

A short story

meeting my second Taiji teacher long ago :

Locally known as Professor Chi, he was a teacher I was introduced to by Taiwanese soldiers attending training on the U.S. Army MIM-23 Hawk Missile System in Huntsville, Alabama—home of Redstone Arsenal, one of the U.S. Army's many training centers.

He told me he had studied directly with Cheng Man-ch'ing in Taiwan. As a high school teacher of Cheng's daughters, he had asked them to introduce him to their father. Cheng agreed to teach him, though not as a formal disciple.

At our first meeting, he asked to see my Taiji...

He was old, maybe in his 70s at the time..
After observing my movements, he remarked, "This is not Taiji, it's slow Shaolin."

I simply responded, "Okay." And so, my real training with him began.

He had me repeat only the opening movement. Each time I finished, he softly said, "Again."

For an hour, I repeated the same movement. I didn't know what he was looking for, but when he finally saw it, he gave a small nod. At the time, I didn't understand what had changed.

Each week, the process continued. If my movement was correct, he would add more. If it was not, he simply said "again"—over and over, always with a slight smile.

At one point, out of frustration, I asked, "How do I know if it's right or not?"

He replied in his soft, Taiwanese-accented English:

"After many years of practice, you will know."

He smiled. I laughed. And I went back to practice.

In time, I realized he was right.

I had initially responded to post #9 where @Same Trick said the kicks were not there in the form for the kicks. I think I initially misunderstood what he meant.

 

[Wing Woo Gar34]

Yes it may be counter productive dabbling in different methods at same time, especially with the CMA’s that all/most have their own peculiar body method practices, mixing such things may get o self hurt.

About the method of teaching -“do it over and over and it will eventually come” - is a way, but the long way. There are the “orally” teachings too. Combined the aha comes rather quicker…. Interesting about that ZMQ style teacher you had that just let you do, ZMQ actually gave away some secrets(the orally teaching).in public

My teachers always taught gung fu and Tai Chi Chuan concurrently. Often back to back TCC and gung fu classes helped me understand the distinction between the two. Depends on what the personal goal is, assuming there is a goal other than enduring the process of training.

 

[windwalker099100]

About the method of teaching -“do it over and over and it will eventually come” - is a way, but the long way. There are the “orally” teachings too. Combined the aha comes rather quicker…. Interesting about that ZMQ style teacher you had that just let you do, ZMQ actually gave away some secrets(the orally teaching).in public

He didn't just let me do it over and over until something eventually happened. He corrected me hands-on, or did the movement himself….then waited to see if I got what he had corrected or showed. If I didn't, my training stayed there until I did.

[Training in China: A Different Approach]

When I trained in China with my last Taiji teacher, I would ask questions through an interpreter, usually to verify my understanding. Master Zhang encouraged questions, but often answered through the art itself—allowing the student to feel the answer.

I quickly learned to be careful what I asked because the answers were usually given hands-on.

My Chinese wasn't good enough to express complex ideas directly, so I had little choice but to watch, listen and practice.

While others asked questions, I practiced.

One day I asked Master Zhang's first grandson a question about Taiji practice. His voice was gentle, his words relayed through another student who could translate.

He replied:

“Your thinking is very Western. Taiji is not like this. It is not a step-by-step process, it cannot be explained in this manner.”

While I agreed with him in principle, I also had my own thoughts: That approach works when practice is expected to take many years and remains consistent. Even then unless one can truly “invest in loss”—give up what they think they already know or understand, allowing the practice to manifest itself through them—they may never truly “know” it, even after decades of practice.

Some eventually left after a couple of yrs, feeling that Master Zhang wasn't teaching them, not understanding that his method of teaching was essentially the way he himself had learned.

Historically, this kind of transmission was not unusual.

 

[windwalker099100]

kicking movements from the 37 step,,

"April 27th, 2007. 2-28 Peace Park Taipei, Taiwan. Our master is Jeng Shean Chih (Zheng Xian Qi). His master is Huang Sheng Shyan.The applications in this video were performed on me by my senior classmate, Huang Jeng Bin.His website is www.huangtaichi.org"

台北市鄭子太極拳學會
For those interested a good place to visit...make friends or inquiries on taiji practice

 

[Kung Fu Wang100]

What is the difference between a longfist kick and a Taiji kick?

Why assume there is one? There isn’t.

After this many years, I'm so happy that you and I still use logic on this subject.

Thread’s about kicking, so I stay with that.
My stance on TJQ is that kicking and punching and such are not the main application of the Taijiquan exercise.

If Taiji is a combat art, you have to know how to kick/punch/lock/throw. This is very sad. Today, Taiji people's training end with push hand, no sparring/wrestling training/testing after that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang100]

there’s no real need for kicking in TJQ

Kicking is your first line of defense. Why do you want to give that away?

The front kick can be used to counter any punches because leg is longer than the arm. If you can keep your opponent to be outside of your kicking range, his arms cannot reach you. Front kick is the most important self-defense tool.

 

[windwalker099100]

Thread’s about kicking, so I stay with that.
My stance on TJQ is that kicking and punching and such are not the main application of the Taijiquan exercise. As I stated, the Taiji form is the core exercise. It’s long smooth continuous flow from start to end should give a clue to the onlooker that the main importance of this exercise lies not in kicking and punching but in something fundamentally deeper/higher that precedes eventual kicking and punching.

Agree.

Although one should realize that the level of one’s practice is what allows one to see beyond the kick or punch itself.

If that sense of deeper skill is successfully harnessed and developed then kicking and punching becomes something one simply may choose to do rather than a martial necessity, and so there’s no real need for kicking in TJQ

No need does not preclude the practice of kicking or punching, provided they're done in accordance with the principles the practice is based on. When Taiji is practiced as part of a larger practice, as it is for some, or developed upon other practices, as it is for others, what one understands as "Taiji" will naturally reflect that experience.

Others, having a different idea of what Taiji is—or a practice based upon different principles—will tend to see those practices as not being "Taiji." Much of this depends upon one's own level and experience.

This is why asking someone to judge another person's practice can be misleading; the questions themselves may be based upon assumptions from one's own practice about something one does not actually practice.

Perhaps this also helps explain why historically we sometimes find injunctions against practicing other arts alongside Taiji. According to Wang Yen-nien, Zhang Qinlin told Hu Yaozhen to practice only Taijiquan, but Hu could not let go of his Xingyi.

He was already a great master, making it very difficult to simply "throw it out the window." His previous accomplishment had become part of how he moved.

Nor is considerable accomplishment necessarily enough to recognize what another method may offer. Until one encounters someone whose practice is based on something different, at an equal or greater level, there may be little reason for one's understanding to change.

Wei Shuren, already an accomplished practitioner of Chen style, apparently had such an encounter with Wang Yongquan.

I had a similar experience in my own development. When I met my last Taiji teacher, I dropped all my other practices to follow his method exclusively—just as he had done after encountering his own teacher.

 

[Kung Fu Wang100]

One thing that I don't understand. In another "internal" CMA forum, nobody wants to talk about Taiji for combat. In this forum, also nobody wants to talk about Taiji for combat. Why?

IMO, Taiji has combat value in the following areas.

1. The end of current move is the beginning of the next move.
2. Because slow training speed, it's easy to coordinate body as a single unit.
3. Emphasize to use waist to push/pull arms/leg.
4. Each Taiji move is either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale.

All those Taiji training 1,2,3,4 can enhance whatever your previous training may be. There is no need to throw away your primary style.

 

[Wing Woo Gar34]

Agree.

Although one should realize that the level of one’s practice is what allows one to see beyond the kick or punch itself.



No need does not preclude the practice of kicking or punching, provided they're done in accordance with the principles the practice is based on. When Taiji is practiced as part of a larger practice, as it is for some, or developed upon other practices, as it is for others, what one understands as "Taiji" will naturally reflect that experience.

Others, having a different idea of what Taiji is—or a practice based upon different principles—will tend to see those practices as not being "Taiji." Much of this depends upon one's own level and experience.

This is why asking someone to judge another person's practice can be misleading; the questions themselves may be based upon assumptions from one's own practice about something one does not actually practice.

Perhaps this also helps explain why historically we sometimes find injunctions against practicing other arts alongside Taiji. According to Wang Yen-nien, Zhang Qinlin told Hu Yaozhen to practice only Taijiquan, but Hu could not let go of his Xingyi.

He was already a great master, making it very difficult to simply "throw it out the window." His previous accomplishment had become part of how he moved.

Nor is considerable accomplishment necessarily enough to recognize what another method may offer. Until one encounters someone whose practice is based on something different, at an equal or greater level, there may be little reason for one's understanding to change.

Wei Shuren, already an accomplished practitioner of Chen style, apparently had such an encounter with Wang Yongquan.

I had a similar experience in my own development. When I met my last Taiji teacher, I dropped all my other practices to follow his method exclusively—just as he had done after encountering his own teacher.

I don’t doubt your experience. That is not available to the masses. It obliges you to teach if you are able.

 

[Wing Woo Gar34]

Agree.

Although one should realize that the level of one’s practice is what allows one to see beyond the kick or punch itself.



No need does not preclude the practice of kicking or punching, provided they're done in accordance with the principles the practice is based on. When Taiji is practiced as part of a larger practice, as it is for some, or developed upon other practices, as it is for others, what one understands as "Taiji" will naturally reflect that experience.

Others, having a different idea of what Taiji is—or a practice based upon different principles—will tend to see those practices as not being "Taiji." Much of this depends upon one's own level and experience.

This is why asking someone to judge another person's practice can be misleading; the questions themselves may be based upon assumptions from one's own practice about something one does not actually practice.

Perhaps this also helps explain why historically we sometimes find injunctions against practicing other arts alongside Taiji. According to Wang Yen-nien, Zhang Qinlin told Hu Yaozhen to practice only Taijiquan, but Hu could not let go of his Xingyi.

He was already a great master, making it very difficult to simply "throw it out the window." His previous accomplishment had become part of how he moved.

Nor is considerable accomplishment necessarily enough to recognize what another method may offer. Until one encounters someone whose practice is based on something different, at an equal or greater level, there may be little reason for one's understanding to change.

Wei Shuren, already an accomplished practitioner of Chen style, apparently had such an encounter with Wang Yongquan.

I had a similar experience in my own development. When I met my last Taiji teacher, I dropped all my other practices to follow his method exclusively—just as he had done after encountering his own teacher.

One thing that I don't understand. In another "internal" CMA forum, nobody wants to talk about Taiji for combat. In this forum, also nobody wants to talk about Taiji for combat. Why?

IMO, Taiji has combat value in the following areas.

1. The end of current move is the beginning of the next move.
2. Because slow training speed, it's easy to coordinate body as a single unit.
3. Emphasize to use waist to push/pull arms/leg.
4. Each Taiji move is either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale.

All those Taiji training 1,2,3,4 can enhance whatever your previous training may be. There is no need to throw away your primary My Sifu would have 6 of us advanced students simultaneously punch him repeatedly full power in the abdomen. He took these punches and absorbed or reflected them in three different ways. There can be no replacement for that kind of experience. Either one can or one cannot. Again, the value is both relative and dependent on the goal. Is what we seek fighting ability? Process alone? Health and personal development? All of these things are on the list of side effects to one degree or another. I think it’s easy to conflate one with another. While a thing may have martial value, that too, is relative to the current and relevant spectrum of experience and knowledge. Each of us will evaluate a thing on our own biases.

 

[Kung Fu Wang100]

the Taiji form is the core exercise.

Taiji form training is designed for old people. For combat, you must train drills.

 

[marvin81]

One thing that I don't understand. In another "internal" CMA forum, nobody wants to talk about Taiji for combat. In this forum, also nobody wants to talk about Taiji for combat. Why?

Some taiji people like to talk about taiji for combat including kicks against resistance.

Phoenix Mountain Tai Chi
May 8, 2025

Discover how Tai Chi's Song principle creates the same devastating kicks used by Muay Thai champions like John Haggerty. Learn to generate explosive power through relaxation, sending opponents flying without telegraphing your attacks.

 

[Same Trick46]

If Taiji is a combat art, you have to know how to kick/punch/lock/throw. This is very sad. Today, Taiji people's training end with push hand, no sparring/wrestling training/testing after that.

Yes taijiquan main focus and achievement [should] be on awareness, enhancing ones natural ability of sensing the situations one may find oneself in, and so eliminating possibilities of finding oneself in bad positions, in where the only option may be to kick or being kicked out from.

 

[Same Trick46]

Kicking is your first line of defense. Why do you want to give that away?

The front kick can be used to counter any punches because leg is longer than the arm. If you can keep your opponent to be outside of your kicking range, his arms cannot reach you. Front kick is the most important self-defense tool.

Yes this is very good in kickboxing ring