The cost of Ego, disrespect, and the failure of teachers and students.

[JowGaWolf]

There actually isn't money in it.

You have to be a top teir martial artist to be a wealthy pro fighter. Especially in mixed martial arts.

This is why guys like Ben Askren will box youtube nobody. Because he gets paid more for that than he has ever been paid for his real competitive matches.

But you can build up a house of cards. Fight nobody, risk nothing and with good branding sell a system that people will climb over broken glass to do.

Which is why I go on about martial arts being more of a belief system than a science.

For example this seminar is 3 to 4 hundred dollars each for a weekend.

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See all of our upcoming events for RAW Combat International including Luke Holloway seminars!

www.raw-combat.com

I know ten guys locally who would eat that guy alive and train you if you shouted them lunch.

I guess I won't get my time back from what one of those videos. That stuff was horrible. There was a lot wrong with what he was doing. Some of those techniques I recognize from Jow Ga (feeding the backfist, and hammer fist) and I know that he's not generating any power from those strike as he's doing. People make things like elbow strikes more complicated than needed.

I'm going to assume he had an accident which would explain the stiffness in his shoulders and back, but from what I saw there's no way in the world that stuff is going to work like that. People move. I won't even waist other people's time by posting the video that I watched..

But it's like you say. some people are willing to spend hundreds of dollar's on stuff like that, so I can't hate this guy's business hustle. I need cash too. lol. I'm just going to be honest about what I'm teaching.

 

[Flying Crane]

There's only one known real fight (sparrings excluded) fight of BL. Wong Jack Man fight, which was summarized by BL (paraphrasing) : ****, I cant fight, but fortunately he can't fight even more.
End of digression.

One of my teachers was a student of Wong, Jack Man for about ten years. He always described Sifu Wong as an exceptional martial artist.

What I have noticed when people who interacted with Bruce Lee describe him, is the consistency with which they use the term “arrogant”.

For what it’s worth.

 

[Flying Crane]

Now, it's a different world, we have MMA.....As MIXED MARTIAL ARTS.....That pick out parts from any style that works and throw away those that doesn't. Basically boxing hands, Muythai elbow and knees, Wrestling ground game, Jujitsu submission and add on some more. Now thanks to UFC and other organizations, there are proving grounds. Disagree? Get into the octagon. Less talk, more action.

So, this is interesting. Here you keep telling people who might disagree with your position that they need to get into the octagon to prove their point.

How about we just turn that around. I think YOU need to get into the octagon to prove to us what you believe in. If you can’t do it, then you are just riding the coat tails of others. Maybe you are the one who drank the Kool-Aid.

Does this mean anything? To me it just means that different people are capable of different things, different people have different interests, and different people find different paths on which to follow their interests. Nothing more, nothing less.

Imagine that.

Time to grow up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the style is really that good, they can find someone that is good enough to get into the Octagon and prove it. There's big money in it, it's not as if it's a waste of time.

There's also the matter of efficiency. A style can be good, but not fast enough in developing the skills for the octagon, so that it simply isn't going to be a worthwhile approach at higher levels. Which means there will be fewer people at lower levels using it (reasonably, people at lower levels tend to follow what works at higher levels. And if it takes longer, folks also get older (and less likely to go to higher levels in competition).

So, if something's among the to 20 of 150 things to consider, it can be pretty good. But there are as many as 19 options that get you to octagon fitness faster or more completely. Why choose number 20 for that?

But "on the street", the average skill level is significantly lower than the average skill level in the octagon, so #20 is still pretty danged good for that. And it might be a lot more interesting to the individual, and it being interesting enough to keep them going regularly is important.

 

[TSDTexan]

There's also the matter of efficiency. A style can be good, but not fast enough in developing the skills for the octagon, so that it simply isn't going to be a worthwhile approach at higher levels. Which means there will be fewer people at lower levels using it (reasonably, people at lower levels tend to follow what works at higher levels. And if it takes longer, folks also get older (and less likely to go to higher levels in competition).

So, if something's among the to 20 of 150 things to consider, it can be pretty good. But there are as many as 19 options that get you to octagon fitness faster or more completely. Why choose number 20 for that?

But "on the street", the average skill level is significantly lower than the average skill level in the octagon, so #20 is still pretty danged good for that. And it might be a lot more interesting to the individual, and it being interesting enough to keep them going regularly is important.

There is a world of difference between consensual competitive combatant sport and responding to non consensual physical aggression. There is a huge skill gap between the two. It follows that different tools and skills are called for to address their different but correlated goals/objectives.

 

[JowGaWolf]

riding the coat tails of others

That's the phrase I was looking for lol. It was driving me nuts trying to remember it. Thank you sir. lol

 

[drop bear]

There is a world of difference between consensual competitive combatant sport and responding to non consensual physical aggression. There is a huge skill gap between the two. It follows that different tools and skills are called for to address their different but correlated goals/objectives.

Not really.

Most of the objectives in an assault are contained in a sport fight at a fundamental level.

They just have a different order of priorities.

 

[drop bear]

That's the phrase I was looking for lol. It was driving me nuts trying to remember it. Thank you sir. lol

Standing on the shoulders of giants. It is amazing we have access to these martial artists that are legitimate.

 

[TSDTexan]

Not really.

Most of the objectives in an assault are contained in a sport fight at a fundamental level.

They just have a different order of priorities.

I didn't use the word assault. I used the word aggression. The deep end of the aggression pool is murder or homicide.

It is understood by mma practitioners that they are trying to establish physical dominance during a match up without ruining their name and career with a homicide. After all, murder is bad for business.

On planet earth, some human is beating another to death as we speak. There is no fighter's purse, or a sports trophy or a medal involved. There is a good chance that there may be more than a single assailant who is murdering the victim.


Furthermore, combative sports "in the octagon" don't really concern themselves with worries about the oppenent having a broken bottle, knife, a club, or machete or sword lurking in a shadow in a poorly lit alleyway.

Kobudo (the twin sister of karate) always has. The same can be said for Kali

There is a correlation between fighting to win, and fighting to live but they are definitely not the same thing.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

This is why you make a tower of babbel with 100 levels that a aspiring challanger must go through before they can fight you. (annoyingly forgot the name of the film that had that as its concept)

Less joking, some schools i have heard do have a challanger gauntlet. I dont know if the teacher takes part or if its just students, but if they are really old they might just take part in any weapon matches there.

His fighting didn't look like Wing Chun at all, just angry physical violence. There was no Gung Fu ( excellence ) displayed.

Thats fighting as far as i am concerned, if you are focused on purely results and the best way, there is a finite list for what would be done. (dont know how many variations, but its besides the point) If wing chun purely is in that list then sure, why cant he? The main diffrence in fighting seems to be in neuance and ambush. Neuance would be if they train with headbutts they will manover like you can headbutt them and headbutt you. ambush would be something like if you are accosted and end up in a fence or someting and you doa blitz combo.
If the ambush doesnt work you will default to more a tradtional fighting stance and so would your opponent as thats the best thing to do there. its also natural for the most part. So basically if your one trick pony of palm to the face, and blitz them with hammerfist and elbows doesnt work, you default to boxing them with your nuance and they do theirs. (obviously if you break off into boxing range and arent grappling, but i dont know grappling to grapplerfy that)

He did knee on belly so thats at least more than what most wing chun people would have done to a grounded opponent. (i dont think thats in wing chun either, but is definately something useful)

anyway, to the general topic.


The only point of contention i see is the mention of full contact fighting or the tone of the mention. this also isnt really a challange as a more on the spot and in the moment fight that happened. this has the added dimension of if it is actually his dwelling. Edit: The actual conflict breaks out with the striped person placing their forehead on the other persons. I think he did

I dont generally see anything wrong with proposing questions and being willing to demosntrate etc what you mean as you paid to be there and to be taught martial arts. So if you see what you think is a problem bring it up, as it either has a answer or the instructor may not have seen it and could come up with something.

Id think just mainting distance,and telling him to get out and calling the police would have been the better course of events if he didnt want them to be there anymore and just act defensively from that onset. Does anyone in the video actually call the police anyway?

Then just settle it in court or out of court about if he gets a refund or not and what the terms of the class are etc at a later date.

Basically, what he did at the end he should have done for the head placement, push him away (towards the exit) and telling him to get out and asking somone to call the police if he didnt. (but obviously acting defensively if he attempted to attack again)

This is at least the first viewing and best assestment of the situation as far as i have, i will probbly rewatch it and edit anything if i see any changes. (not literally edit the post, but make a addendum post)

Addendum: i watched the video without commentary when i found it in the thread, not the overal commentary, going from the short segment i have seen the comemntary is looking at it like its a "challange" when it isnt, its a spontious fight with a attendee over a disagreement with whats being taught. Didnt watch more than maybe up to two minutes.

I also skimmed to the point of the video where the conflcit broke out and watched to just before it, as stated i dont disagree with questioning instructors so it seemed a null point to watch more than what actually caused the fight and how it went down. I also dont know **** about wing chun or JKD.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Addendum post after breif rewatch:

I didnt hear the instructor or notice them aggrssively offer a fight first time. But watching the frames for when the fight starts, he doesnt really break contact he just slaps the stripe top and closes in to fight them. I firmly stand by pushing to get them out of your space and telling them to get out would have best there, as you could argue the instructor assualted the other person. (who did not until near the end get consent to be on the property revoked) Actually i would argue and say the instructor assualted striped top, and striped top was acting in self defence. If we also look at the fact hes in his back garden and surrounded by at least people somewhat loyal to the instructor (wouldnt call them freinds or allies, thats too strong) and he was also forced deeper into the property. (from where i presume the entrance is) and if he has any property there he would need to be given time to recover it or somone hand it to him outside. Property recovery was something i overlooked in the initial post.


I also find it slightly bemusing no one steps in to help, and no one calls the police, once they start fighting no one seems to do anything other than the one person who steps in before the fight, and the same person who comes back near the end. I dont think i see attempts either.


I also wonder if something worse would have happened and if the police didnt show up if any video would have made it to the internet, i wonder how many things like this happen and you dont see any videos of it.


The head being placed on the isntructor was a mistake though, but not everyone acts clearly under pressure or under threat of violence. I also cant make any statement to how respectful striped top was but im inclided to belive he was at least neutral in wording through the entire thing and was just sharing his opinion on a technique. (i will take who evers word for it he was or wasnt) Lets be fair though, you A dont expect your instructor to beat you up and B dont expect your student to commit a act of battery/assualt on you.

 

[drop bear]

I didn't use the word assault. I used the word aggression. The deep end of the aggression pool is murder or homicide.

It is understood by mma practitioners that they are trying to establish physical dominance during a match up without ruining their name and career with a homicide. After all, murder is bad for business.

On planet earth, some human is beating another to death as we speak. There is no fighter's purse, or a sports trophy or a medal involved. There is a good chance that there may be more than a single assailant who is murdering the victim.


Furthermore, combative sports "in the octagon" don't really concern themselves with worries about the oppenent having a broken bottle, knife, a club, or machete or sword lurking in a shadow in a poorly lit alleyway.

Kobudo (the twin sister of karate) always has. The same can be said for Kali

There is a correlation between fighting to win, and fighting to live but they are definitely not the same thing.

This is a marketing difference rather than an actual difference. Where people sell this idea of life or death fights. Rather than selling competent mechanics.

 

[Graywalker]

All I can do is laugh.

 

[Grandmaster Yue men quan]

I'm going to show my EGO here. It wouldn't happen to me. The reason I say this is because of how I teach. I teach in a way that allows of discussions like that to occur. But after class. This is a Jow Ga class. So until class is over, everyone eats, sweats, breathes,, bleeds, sees, trains, and vomit Jow Ga.

As someone who tries his best to represent the functionality of Jow Ga. If I were ever in a situation like that and things went that bad. I would at least use Jow Ga to beat the person up. I wish I could say that I was Disappointed in the Wing Chun Instructor, because he didn't do any WC so he has to live with that. The kid didn't know anything about JKD. and the Instructor should have picked up on that when the JKD lesson began. He could have had an easy win that read. Headlines: JKD fan boy scared to spar with WC Instructor after Instructor offered sparring gear.


Long Response Below
----------------------------------------------------

First off I had to see the video without the commentary. I rather not be lead to a perspective based on the commentary So here's the video

After class is when I allow such discussions to occur. I also allow and accept corrections during class and I make ok for students to correct me when I misspeak. It's not uncommon for people to be thinking one thing and something totally different to come out, only for it to register a few minutes later that you misspoke. It happens, it's a human thing.

It's easier for me to thank the student, and for me to say my mind is currently in many directions, and to be thankful that a student was able to pick up the mistake vs just letting it slide. Now, if I'm right and the student is wrong, then everyone will get the "this is why we do it this way" lecture. Get a couple of those and the desire to correct is greatly lowered lol. But seriously, in the past I have had to say. "We train way because I want us to develop "Skills A, Skills B, Skills C...." In general I start off by telling students why we do exercises up front because I want the students to be knowledgeable about what they are doing. One day someone may ask them, "Why do they do a certain exercise."

Now that my Teacher EGO is done. I would have sparred with him only because I know my stuff. After he would have explained his game plan to me, I would have taken that information and then poke holes through his technique via sparring. If he's going to stop my kicks, then I would count how many times I land a kick and how many times he was able to defend it. At least that would be my game plan.

He would have probably responded the same way to me @ 2:00. The guy said he would go super easy so he can see it coming, but then Waldo chickens out. The WC instructor was actually in the process of throwing "the super easy so you can see it coming kick." This is when the WC instructor has won. He could have walked away at this point and said that Waldo was afraid of a "super easy so you can see it coming kick." Game over WC wins. Or in my case Jow Ga wins.

This is where I my response would have changed. I would have said. OK I have sparring gear. Then I would have offered the sparring gear. I would have asked him does he want to wear it or does he want me to wear it. At this point you can box someone in to making 1 of 2 decisions. He will either put on the gear, or He will either walk away in fear. Either way is fine with me.

I wouldn't have gotten within grabbing distance though. Everyone has their "Red Zone" No need to put him in mine. If person gets in my Red Zone then self-defense mentality kicks in and puts me in the mind set of fighting. If you ever see me in a situation like this in a heated argument then I'm going to attack. I only say this, because I don't get into people's "Red Zone." The only way this can happen to me in an argument, is if the person advances towards me.
View attachment 26922


The disappoint side of all of this is if I have to fight someone because they interrupt my Jow Ga class like a butt. Not saying I would, but if things lead to that path, I would feel a strong "duty" to beat this guy up using Jow Ga Kung fu. I'm just saying. If 2 people from 2 different systems get into this situation then at least back up the fight with your skill sets. Literally everything is going down hill at this point so at least layout some Wing Chun so that people in YouTube land can send Rokas a video of a real street fight using Wing Chun. At least get that victory ha ha ha.

The punches weren't damaging. I think the WC hurt his hand when he hit the skull. The JKD sucked, and the guy slipped on a stick. His kicking strategy totally out of the window ha ha ha.

 

[Grandmaster Yue men quan]

Both of them! Wth. First off you don't have to command attention to have an audience. Second off, neither one of them knew anything about what the hell they were doing. A qualified instructor doesn't get emotional about disgraceful behavior or have to set it right its train or go. Come send go. Not come get ruffled and fight like a girl. Follow the actual training in any training hall the fact that this guys proclaims to know wing chun and doesn't even understand the arts maxim makes him a retard. You don't go and challenge a real wing chun practitioner there not going to ground and pound you there going to strike you in the six gate and end your life. Sorry but both of them need alot of work.

 

[knuckleheader]

Yes, the instructor could have handled it differently.
Maybe he was having a bad moment and Waldo pressed the wrong button at the wrong time.
None of us are perfect all of the time.

 

[ThatOneCanadian]

Martial arts training is beautiful. Fighting is ugly. The former requires you to adhere to the technique you are taught. The latter is an open playground. I see nothing wrong with using pure aggression in a real confrontation.

 

[letsplaygames]

There is a break down of functional prowess in CMA. And again that break down is on display here.

What Ive noticed most about CMA’s,

They often are empty shells, most void of the skills first needed to make the art effective.


I’m not saying tradition CMA’s Do not work… (im not vain, ignorant or stupid in this reguard) I think they all at one time in history must have been very effective.

It is almost as if “most” CMA’s are based off one or two specific tactics that in a fight you get one shot at…& if you pull off the tactic it’s devastating!

that said…
Seems much of CMA has forgotten what skillsets are needed to get to that point.

 

[Anarax]

That's the real disappointment. Just another video of how Traditional Martial Arts reverts to basic kick boxing and grabbing.

I've taken kickboxing for several years, I've never seen anything like that in class 😂

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've taken kickboxing for several years, I've never seen anything like that in class 😂

You're right. My apologies lol. They didn't even rise to that standard. How many years had the Wing Chun Instructor train? Just think. All that time spent training and that's all he had to show.

It would have been better if the Wing Chun Instructor would have kicked that JKD guy just to show him that the kicks couldn't be stopped. Knock the wind out of or something representative of the EGOS on display.