The cost of Ego, disrespect, and the failure of teachers and students.

[TSDTexan]

Some youngster shows up at a backyard training for Wing Chun, with poor manners, criticizes the teacher and it looks like he provoked the teacher with a head butt.

The teacher let his ego become wounded and missed the opportunity to teach the student. His fighting didn't look like Wing Chun at all, just angry physical violence. There was no Gung Fu ( excellence ) displayed.

If you are/were the teacher in this situation, how would you have handled this?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Very interesting. I would ask "Waldo" to stop and step back while class was in progress. If he would not, I'd ask a couple of senior students to show him out.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Instructor was pretty heated before the headbutt. Don't have the full context, but he seems threatened by the questioning. Had the sound really low (at work), but the kid seemed to be trying to push buttons (rather than just trying to get an answer to a question).

It didn't look like any strikes would be necessary to control that kid, and once he makes it physical that's what I'd be aiming for. But I think there were plenty of opportunities to avoid it getting to that point.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you are/were the teacher in this situation, how would you have handled this?

I'm going to show my EGO here. It wouldn't happen to me. The reason I say this is because of how I teach. I teach in a way that allows of discussions like that to occur. But after class. This is a Jow Ga class. So until class is over, everyone eats, sweats, breathes,, bleeds, sees, trains, and vomit Jow Ga.

As someone who tries his best to represent the functionality of Jow Ga. If I were ever in a situation like that and things went that bad. I would at least use Jow Ga to beat the person up. I wish I could say that I was Disappointed in the Wing Chun Instructor, because he didn't do any WC so he has to live with that. The kid didn't know anything about JKD. and the Instructor should have picked up on that when the JKD lesson began. He could have had an easy win that read. Headlines: JKD fan boy scared to spar with WC Instructor after Instructor offered sparring gear.


Long Response Below
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First off I had to see the video without the commentary. I rather not be lead to a perspective based on the commentary So here's the video

After class is when I allow such discussions to occur. I also allow and accept corrections during class and I make ok for students to correct me when I misspeak. It's not uncommon for people to be thinking one thing and something totally different to come out, only for it to register a few minutes later that you misspoke. It happens, it's a human thing.

It's easier for me to thank the student, and for me to say my mind is currently in many directions, and to be thankful that a student was able to pick up the mistake vs just letting it slide. Now, if I'm right and the student is wrong, then everyone will get the "this is why we do it this way" lecture. Get a couple of those and the desire to correct is greatly lowered lol. But seriously, in the past I have had to say. "We train way because I want us to develop "Skills A, Skills B, Skills C...." In general I start off by telling students why we do exercises up front because I want the students to be knowledgeable about what they are doing. One day someone may ask them, "Why do they do a certain exercise."

Now that my Teacher EGO is done. I would have sparred with him only because I know my stuff. After he would have explained his game plan to me, I would have taken that information and then poke holes through his technique via sparring. If he's going to stop my kicks, then I would count how many times I land a kick and how many times he was able to defend it. At least that would be my game plan.

He would have probably responded the same way to me @ 2:00. The guy said he would go super easy so he can see it coming, but then Waldo chickens out. The WC instructor was actually in the process of throwing "the super easy so you can see it coming kick." This is when the WC instructor has won. He could have walked away at this point and said that Waldo was afraid of a "super easy so you can see it coming kick." Game over WC wins. Or in my case Jow Ga wins.

This is where I my response would have changed. I would have said. OK I have sparring gear. Then I would have offered the sparring gear. I would have asked him does he want to wear it or does he want me to wear it. At this point you can box someone in to making 1 of 2 decisions. He will either put on the gear, or He will either walk away in fear. Either way is fine with me.

I wouldn't have gotten within grabbing distance though. Everyone has their "Red Zone" No need to put him in mine. If person gets in my Red Zone then self-defense mentality kicks in and puts me in the mind set of fighting. If you ever see me in a situation like this in a heated argument then I'm going to attack. I only say this, because I don't get into people's "Red Zone." The only way this can happen to me in an argument, is if the person advances towards me.

The disappoint side of all of this is if I have to fight someone because they interrupt my Jow Ga class like a butt. Not saying I would, but if things lead to that path, I would feel a strong "duty" to beat this guy up using Jow Ga Kung fu. I'm just saying. If 2 people from 2 different systems get into this situation then at least back up the fight with your skill sets. Literally everything is going down hill at this point so at least layout some Wing Chun so that people in YouTube land can send Rokas a video of a real street fight using Wing Chun. At least get that victory ha ha ha.

The punches weren't damaging. I think the WC hurt his hand when he hit the skull. The JKD sucked, and the guy slipped on a stick. His kicking strategy totally out of the window ha ha ha.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There was no Gung Fu ( excellence ) displayed.

That's the real disappointment. Just another video of how Traditional Martial Arts reverts to basic kick boxing and grabbing. If there was ever a good time to showcase martial arts skills in a street fight. That was it.

 

[drop bear]

This recently happened. We let a white belt beat the guy up.


I did a thread.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This recently happened. We let a white belt beat the guy up.


I did a thread.

I've heard other places do the same thing. If you wanted to really take the wind out of someone then you let the lowest level student take them out lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Figure I'll throw some Gasoline on this one.

 

[Alan0354]

I am not an instructor, just practiced Tae Kwon Do for almost 3 years and I learn Wing Chun for a little while before. I don't want to judge the instructor losing his cool, I am not going to be an armchair QB.

One thing I have talked about this here and since this is a small circle, I am sure people already read my ranting about Wing Chun. I watched a lot of youtube on Wing Chun vs MMA and other styles, I YET to see any application of the essence of Wing Chun in fighting. Never see anyone using sticky hands in a real fight. So it is NOT surprising that the instructor fight like a kick boxer instead BECAUSE IT WORKS. What, offended me a whole lot more about those teachers are all the talk talk talk and doesn't do "manure"!!! Why wasting students' time practicing on something that is USELESS. I said it and I'll say it again, don't tell me it works, if anyone think it works, go into the Octagon, if they make it to the pay-per-view, then they can talk as loud as they want.

Now, if that teacher also teach kickboxing in his Wing Chun school, then I applaud him for have an open mind and use whatever works.

I went to a lot of Tae Kwon Do school to watch before I decided to joint the one I went to. I notice my school do a lot of practical exercise, we don't do the old style katas, we don't do deep horse stands and punch from the side of the body. We stand up, move around, we use boxing hands. We have students taking turns holding a bag and let the other student punch and kick. We have a lot of contact, the one holding the bag get use to being hit( even with the bag, it's not as easy as people think). We do sparring, we seldom do forms until right before the belt test. Very much like what Bruce Lee did. I believe in practice what works and throw away those that doesn't, don't even waste a minute in useless moves. Our teacher even invite a Jujitsu instructor occasionally to teach us submission stuffs. That was in mid 80s way before UFC. this is what I called a good school. How many MA school can say this?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I believe in practice what works and throw away those that doesn't, don't even waste a minute in useless moves. Our teacher even invite a Jujitsu instructor occasionally to teach us submission stuffs. That was in mid 80s way before UFC. this is what I called a good school. How many MA school can say this?

You believe in practicing what you think works.

 

[TSDTexan]

I'm going to show my EGO here. It wouldn't happen to me. The reason I say this is because of how I teach. I teach in a way that allows of discussions like that to occur. But after class. This is a Jow Ga class. So until class is over, everyone eats, sweats, breathes,, bleeds, sees, trains, and vomit Jow Ga.

As someone who tries his best to represent the functionality of Jow Ga. If I were ever in a situation like that and things went that bad. I would at least use Jow Ga to beat the person up. I wish I could say that I was Disappointed in the Wing Chun Instructor, because he didn't do any WC so he has to live with that. The kid didn't know anything about JKD. and the Instructor should have picked up on that when the JKD lesson began. He could have had an easy win that read. Headlines: JKD fan boy scared to spar with WC Instructor after Instructor offered sparring gear.


Long Response Below
----------------------------------------------------

First off I had to see the video without the commentary. I rather not be lead to a perspective based on the commentary So here's the video

After class is when I allow such discussions to occur. I also allow and accept corrections during class and I make ok for students to correct me when I misspeak. It's not uncommon for people to be thinking one thing and something totally different to come out, only for it to register a few minutes later that you misspoke. It happens, it's a human thing.

It's easier for me to thank the student, and for me to say my mind is currently in many directions, and to be thankful that a student was able to pick up the mistake vs just letting it slide. Now, if I'm right and the student is wrong, then everyone will get the "this is why we do it this way" lecture. Get a couple of those and the desire to correct is greatly lowered lol. But seriously, in the past I have had to say. "We train way because I want us to develop "Skills A, Skills B, Skills C...." In general I start off by telling students why we do exercises up front because I want the students to be knowledgeable about what they are doing. One day someone may ask them, "Why do they do a certain exercise."

Now that my Teacher EGO is done. I would have sparred with him only because I know my stuff. After he would have explained his game plan to me, I would have taken that information and then poke holes through his technique via sparring. If he's going to stop my kicks, then I would count how many times I land a kick and how many times he was able to defend it. At least that would be my game plan.

He would have probably responded the same way to me @ 2:00. The guy said he would go super easy so he can see it coming, but then Waldo chickens out. The WC instructor was actually in the process of throwing "the super easy so you can see it coming kick." This is when the WC instructor has won. He could have walked away at this point and said that Waldo was afraid of a "super easy so you can see it coming kick." Game over WC wins. Or in my case Jow Ga wins.

This is where I my response would have changed. I would have said. OK I have sparring gear. Then I would have offered the sparring gear. I would have asked him does he want to wear it or does he want me to wear it. At this point you can box someone in to making 1 of 2 decisions. He will either put on the gear, or He will either walk away in fear. Either way is fine with me.

I wouldn't have gotten within grabbing distance though. Everyone has their "Red Zone" No need to put him in mine. If person gets in my Red Zone then self-defense mentality kicks in and puts me in the mind set of fighting. If you ever see me in a situation like this in a heated argument then I'm going to attack. I only say this, because I don't get into people's "Red Zone." The only way this can happen to me in an argument, is if the person advances towards me.
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The disappoint side of all of this is if I have to fight someone because they interrupt my Jow Ga class like a butt. Not saying I would, but if things lead to that path, I would feel a strong "duty" to beat this guy up using Jow Ga Kung fu. I'm just saying. If 2 people from 2 different systems get into this situation then at least back up the fight with your skill sets. Literally everything is going down hill at this point so at least layout some Wing Chun so that people in YouTube land can send Rokas a video of a real street fight using Wing Chun. At least get that victory ha ha ha.

The punches weren't damaging. I think the WC hurt his hand when he hit the skull. The JKD sucked, and the guy slipped on a stick. His kicking strategy totally out of the window ha ha ha.

If you cannot keep your root.... You aren't ready to demonstrate kicking.

If you cannot be mindfull of the terrain upon which you are fighting/sparing.... You probable aren't ready to demonstrate kicking.

Personal anacdote time..
I was thowing a party back in college. It was on my grandmother's defunct dairy farm.

it was a bunch of drunk collage boys with a tiny amount of college ladies thrown in for color.

I was pretty close to being drunk, but I had switched to iced bottled water.
A "really good" friend got beligerent and I asked him to calm down or I would calm him down.

Me being a 20 year old who thought I knew what I was doing.... (Lol) Of course.... I didn't. I lost a really good friend, after he put his hands on me, and I broke his wrist with a kote gaeshi, and two sloppy hip tosses that brusied him badly.

He had been too drunk to feel me break his wrist, and it spiraled out of control. The thing that broke our friendship is that his girlfriend watched the whole thing, and dumped him because he lost the fight.

I reflect back.... And realize that I was the one who lost the fight because I had been taught deescalation, and I escalated it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That was in mid 80s way before UFC. this is what I called a good school. How many MA school can say this?

Probably more than you think in terms of being in the US.

 

[Alan0354]

You believe in practicing what you think works.

Yes, I observed who's whooping who's butt.

At the time when I was learning, kick boxing was pretty much the latest. Bruce Lee proved by whooping all the so called masters before he died using his combination of boxing hands and Tae Kwon Do kicks. He was the first one combining different styles and picked out what works. Did he whooped so many of those so called "masters". His first MA was Wing Chun directly from Yip Mun, you can see in his fights, he did not use any Wing Chun. He knew better.

Now, it's a different world, we have MMA.....As MIXED MARTIAL ARTS.....That pick out parts from any style that works and throw away those that doesn't. Basically boxing hands, Muythai elbow and knees, Wrestling ground game, Jujitsu submission and add on some more. Now thanks to UFC and other organizations, there are proving grounds. Disagree? Get into the octagon. Less talk, more action.

 

[Alan0354]

Probably more than you think in terms of being in the US.

That's good, finally they learn, that one cannot hold onto the old style. Yes, I have not audition schools for a long time, maybe things have change, finally they realize a lot of their things don't work and they change. I am glad schools in US changed, I can care less whether schools in China change. I am in US.

I know the old mentality of Chinese kung fu, they feel very strong in retaining their original method from like 100 years ago and they are proud of this. That's bad. If they actually humble enough to change, then there is hope.

Like I said, if that instructor actually teach kick boxing and he used kick boxing to defeat the punk, I applaud him. Forget what is the name of the school(Wing Chun), teach things that actually works. If he teach ground game, that would be a very good school.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Yes, I observed who's whooping who's butt.

At the time when I was learning, kick boxing was pretty much the latest. Bruce Lee proved by whooping all the so called masters before he died using his combination of boxing hands and Tae Kwon Do kicks. He was the first one combining different styles and picked out what works. Did he whooped so many of those so called "masters". His first MA was Wing Chun directly from Yip Mun, you can see in his fights, he did not use any Wing Chun. He knew better.

Now, it's a different world, we have MMA.....As MIXED MARTIAL ARTS.....That pick out parts from any style that works and throw away those that doesn't. Basically boxing hands, Muythai elbow and knees, Wrestling ground game, Jujitsu submission and add on some more. Now thanks to UFC and other organizations, there are proving grounds. Disagree? Get into the octagon. Less talk, more action.

I can't fly a plane, therefore no one can.

 

[JowGaWolf]

As MIXED MARTIAL ARTS.....That pick out parts from any style that works and throw away those that doesn't.

Actually Mix Martial Arts aren't throwing things away. They are picking the things that they learn and use in a short period of time. Ironically if they are in the game long enough they begin to build up skills that allow them to use more complex techniques that they would have never used at the beginning. The more they train the more they are able to do the advance techniques (these are the ones you think they are throwing away).

Where traditional martial arts often fails is that they don't learn how to use the easier techniques first and they don't work their way up to using the more difficult techniques. For example, Wing Chun. I don't like it, but if I had to learn it, I would first start by learning how to apply the easy stuff first. I would get really good at that which would give me the skills and ability to try the next level technique.

My first Jow Ga technique that I learned and became really good at was the sweep. While it difficult for some, this was easy for me to learn and understand in comparison to all of the other stuff. After I got good with that I started to add to that skill set by adding something a little bit harder. My skills and ability grew each time I added something slightly difficult to what I was already able to do really well. MMA is like this. Now when you watch MMA you start to see a lot of techniques that people thought that would never work.

 

[Alan0354]

Actually Mix Martial Arts aren't throwing things away. They are picking the things that they learn and use in a short period of time. Ironically if they are in the game long enough they begin to build up skills that allow them to use more complex techniques that they would have never used at the beginning. The more they train the more they are able to do the advance techniques (these are the ones you think they are throwing away).

Where traditional martial arts often fails is that they don't learn how to use the easier techniques first and they don't work their way up to using the more difficult techniques. For example, Wing Chun. I don't like it, but if I had to learn it, I would first start by learning how to apply the easy stuff first. I would get really good at that which would give me the skills and ability to try the next level technique.

My first Jow Ga technique that I learned and became really good at was the sweep. While it difficult for some, this was easy for me to learn and understand in comparison to all of the other stuff. After I got good with that I started to add to that skill set by adding something a little bit harder. My skills and ability grew each time I added something slightly difficult to what I was already able to do really well. MMA is like this. Now when you watch MMA you start to see a lot of techniques that people thought that would never work.

Wing Chun has good stuffs, I really like their punch, but I won't punch from the middle of the chest like in their first set form ( straight translation is " Little Idea" or " Little Thoughts"). But Wing Chun punch is very strong if people can really practice good. On top of legs, hip, waste and shoulder combine to throw a punch, Wing Chun add the wrist motion to dig the knuckle of the baby finger into the target. It's like adding the last nudge to add to the rest of the force. It takes quite a while to get it good, I use that in my practice. I think that's the added force for short distance punch. You practice punching the bags, you can feel it's hitting harder and dig deeper into the bag.

The other of Wing Chun is the step kick to the knee of the opponent. You can see people use it in UFC fight. Those are good stuffs of Wing Chun. I just don't see their sticky hands. Again, I can only speak about Wing Chun sticky hands, not other styles like yours.

MMA is evolving every day, you watch back fights of even 7 years old, it's different. The idea is constantly improving. I hope you are right that there are more schools like I described that keep incorporate new useful stuffs into their teaching instead of stubbornly follow the old traditional stuffs. Funny ESPN ( channel 219 in DirectTV) is showing a lot of older fights dated back up to 10 years ago due to the pendemic, you can really tell the age of the recording by just looking at the way they fight. That's the reason nobody stay on top for long time and they get defeated soon.

Ha ha, I guess I am the kind that like to learn new things regardless of age. I retired since 2005, but I still keep up with studying and learning. Last year, my grandson who's is 3rd year computer science major said he is lacking motivation. I said how about grandpa nipping at your heal?!!! I decided to study C++ computer programming language. I spent 7 months and finish a 2" thick book from cover to cover!!! I did it.....for a 68 years old man. I was going to go farther until all the attacks of older Asians, so I dropped the programming and work on stick fight with a walking cane for self defense. It's been 3 months and I am still go hard at it. I just keep getting into new things, always learning. Before C++ programming, I was designing and built very high end hifi power amps for 3 years until my amps can compare favorably with amps that are over $5,000. Life is an adventure. I hope my cane fight can be good enough to protect myself and my wife, then I will be moving onto other adventures.

 

[Cynik75]

.... Bruce Lee proved by whooping all the so called masters before he died using his combination of boxing hands and Tae Kwon Do kicks.

There's only one known real fight (sparrings excluded) fight of BL. Wong Jack Man fight, which was summarized by BL (paraphrasing) : ****, I cant fight, but fortunately he can't fight even more.
End of digression.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I just don't see their sticky hands.

I don't think you will see this as trained in Wing Chun. What you see is Sticky Hands and how it looks when it's Wing Chun vs Wing Chun. When you use it against another someone who doesn't train Wing Chun then it will look different. Most people fight with one hand forward and one hand back. This means that you will be too far away to maintain sticky hands, which is probably why some Wing Chun schools are really big on always moving forward. This mindset may be so that you can close the distance. If you get close enough then you will cram your opponent's punches or encourage him to try to grab you. This is probably where Wing Chun sticky hands would be most effective.

We had one user apply sticky hands in ground fighting and based on the video that I saw this is when it looked like Wing Chun sticky hands. The only difference is that he was on the top mount punching down as the other person was trying to defend and deal with in the incoming punches.

1:33 - 1:39 is how I feel about Jow Ga. I think it applies to all Martial Arts systems.

The day I started to get really good at Jow Ga was the day I no longer thought Jow Ga vs Jow Ga. Jow Ga vs Everyone else makes the techniques easier to understand. When other Martial Artist here share information about their system, I start to think Jow Ga vs that system. I'm always asking myself "What is the Jow Ga Answer?" I think this way of thinking can help anyone. So those who have trouble with Wing Chun should think. Wing Chun vs Everyone else. Then when it's Wing Chun vs Boxing, then "What is the Wing Chun Answer"

You also have to give yourself flexibility to Develop Wing Chun. This is the most important because it will allow you to do Wing Chun in a way that fits the situation but it may go against what you were taught. This how development works. If you don't give yourself that flexibility then Wing Chun will never be yours. It will always be someone else's Wing Chun

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am not an instructor, just practiced Tae Kwon Do for almost 3 years and I learn Wing Chun for a little while before. I don't want to judge the instructor losing his cool, I am not going to be an armchair QB.

It's better to say what's on your mind. Right or wrong something can be learned from it.