The cost of Ego, disrespect, and the failure of teachers and students.

[Anarax]

Those gloves don't do anything to protect the person being punched. They protect the punchers hand. So this instructor lacks basic understandings.

Wait, what? The next thing you'll tell me is my mouthguard is to protect my teeth and not my opponent's fists.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Wait, what..? You think a wing Chun guy is not allowed to put his knee on someone’s belly? You think that everything that someone does in a fight needs to be explicitly taught within the codified curriculum of the system? You see no room for creative and spontaneous applications?

No what i was stating was, "i dont think thats part of wing chun" not that the person themselves cant do it. then i went on about how no one fights purely in one system and its a detriment if you do most of the time. ie if knee on belly was good there, if you were a purist and it wasnt in the system [wing chun] he wouldnt do it/wouldnt have been taught it.


If it is or is not in wing chun doesnt seem germane to the point i am tryign to get across, i will welcome a source that its "pure" wing chun though and taught as such.

 

[Flying Crane]

No what i was stating was, "i dont think thats part of wing chun" not that the person themselves cant do it. then i went on about how no one fights purely in one system and its a detriment if you do most of the time. ie if knee on belly was good there, if you were a purist and it wasnt in the system [wing chun] he wouldnt do it/wouldnt have been taught it.


If it is or is not in wing chun doesnt seem germane to the point i am tryign to get across, i will welcome a source that its "pure" wing chun though and taught as such.

The point I’m trying to get across is that any system is just a framework for training the body how to move and respond, with a body of techniques. But that is just the beginning. If someone never sees beyond that formalized curriculum then they haven’t learned anything. The formalized curriculum in no way represents what may or may not be done, or what all the possibilities are. So really, the statement that a knee on the belly isn’t part of wing Chun is just an irrelevant thing to even contemplate.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Wait, what? The next thing you'll tell me is my mouthguard is to protect my teeth and not my opponent's fists.

ha ha ha. that makes sense. Boxers wear mouth guards to protect the other boxers fists. You know teeth are really dangerous. Gotta wear puffy gloves because teeth are that dangerous. You gotta pad up lol.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

It's important to remember that the poster doesn't actually train or have any experience, so some of his views are more than a little silly.

Sure

experience noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Definition of experience noun in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.

www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com

experience

1. (the process of getting) knowledge or skill from doing, seeing, or feeling…

dictionary.cambridge.org

If you want to rehash this on every post and borderline if not break the services rules then i am game. Just note i am not holding anyones (including your) "bad takes" historically against them nor am i rehasing it anywhere as close as often to this. Nor am i being fallcious about appeal to authortity and posioning the well or what ever else can be contained in this.


I am pretty sure we have both made out opinions clear about each other the last how ever often this has been rehashed.

Same applies to anyone else who wants to, you arent getting more than quotations from the dictionary at this point.

Now i am going to contiue on with the topic at hand in the thread.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So really, the statement that a knee on the belly isn’t in wing Chun is just an irrelevant thing to even contemplate.

I know I was looking for some of the core principles of Wing Chun. I would have looked for the core principles of JKD but that guy was so bad that it wasn't worth it. I've seen quite a few Wing Chun practitioners fight other systems and win or lose you can see those core concepts trying to be applied

Here's what is said to be a Wing Chun fight. Talking about someone taking punches. This dude took some punches. But that's besides the point. You can see that even on the losing side, he's trying to work those core principles. Both of the fights below were more serious than the WC vs JKD fight. If WC didn't come out during that fight, then I don't think WC will come out when the heat gets turned up.

Same here.

 

[Dirty Dog]

ha ha ha. that makes sense. Boxers wear mouth guards to protect the other boxers fists. You know teeth are really dangerous. Gotta wear puffy gloves because teeth are that dangerous. You gotta pad up lol.

In all seriousness, teeth really are. Of all the wounds we deal with in the ER, bites are just about the only ones that will be started on antibiotics every time. Because they have such a stupidly high infection rate.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

The point I’m trying to get across is that any system is just a framework for training the body how to move and respond, with a body of techniques. But that is just the beginning. If someone never sees beyond that formalized curriculum then they haven’t learned anything. The formalized curriculum in no way represents what may or may not be done, or what all the possibilities are. So really, the statement that a knee on the belly isn’t in wing Chun is just an irrelevant thing to even contemplate.

The status of "system" does imply codification within a framework, yes. I will accept a body of techniques in this definition.

That is all there is, the "system" is the "system", there is a start, middle and end. If you go beyond the "formalized curriculem" you arent in the system anymore. The system normally ends or becomes blurred with ending near lets say "black belt" in TMA. There is a harder end in some, more of a blurred soft end in others. But thats not up for dispute.

The curriculem represents what is taught to be done and not done, which in turns effects what is done and not done. I agree that does not represent everything that can be done in fighting, but it represents what that system teaches, if you only have one throw, it doesnt matter that there are 6 throws, the system only has one and unless you go outside it, you will only be taught one.

this is where i think you didnt understand my point correctly (who evers fault not relivent). The statement "knee on the belly isn’t in wing Chun", is in context to a argument about wing chun fighting ability. It is relivent to contemplate as wing chun is a system, so that technique is either in it or not. And this stems the tangent on purism, purism would be only sticking to your system and letting people do things in your system, ergo, no knee on belly if its not in Wing Chun. I know there are, gods knows how many wing chuns out there, but thats besides the point.

Just to be clear, i am anti purism and dont think it really works well, if you can even achive it. I am doubtful to if you can achive proper purism.

Hopefully that cleared some things up. Now grante di could have mis read part of the argument i replied in the middle to, and i did a general reply not quoting what specfically i was replying to.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In all seriousness, teeth really are. Of all the wounds we deal with in the ER, bites are just about the only ones that will be started on antibiotics every time. Because they have such a stupidly high infection rate.

That doesn't surprise me considering the bacteria that we have in our mouth. Some of us have more than others and not in a good way. lol.

Just out of curiosity. What are the bite marks usually from fights at the bar? Where are they usually located?

 

[Dirty Dog]

That doesn't surprise me considering the bacteria that we have in our mouth. Some of us have more than others and not in a good way. lol.

Just out of curiosity. What are the bite marks usually from fights at the bar? Where are they usually located?

Hands. They're not technically bites, fight bites are usually caused by the fist impacting on the teeth. I teach students to avoid punching someone in the mouth. It's too easy to hurt themselves, and it's at least as effective, if not more so, to aim for the point of the chin or the philtrum.

 

[Flying Crane]

The status of "system" does imply codification within a framework, yes. I will accept a body of techniques in this definition.

That is all there is, the "system" is the "system", there is a start, middle and end. If you go beyond the "formalized curriculem" you arent in the system anymore. The system normally ends or becomes blurred with ending near lets say "black belt" in TMA. There is a harder end in some, more of a blurred soft end in others. But thats not up for dispute.

The curriculem represents what is taught to be done and not done, which in turns effects what is done and not done. I agree that does not represent everything that can be done in fighting, but it represents what that system teaches, if you only have one throw, it doesnt matter that there are 6 throws, the system only has one and unless you go outside it, you will only be taught one.

this is where i think you didnt understand my point correctly (who evers fault not relivent). The statement "knee on the belly isn’t in wing Chun", is in context to a argument about wing chun fighting ability. It is relivent to contemplate as wing chun is a system, so that technique is either in it or not. And this stems the tangent on purism, purism would be only sticking to your system and letting people do things in your system, ergo, no knee on belly if its not in Wing Chun. I know there are, gods knows how many wing chuns out there, but thats besides the point.

Just to be clear, i am anti purism and dont think it really works well, if you can even achive it. I am doubtful to if you can achive proper purism.

Hopefully that cleared some things up. Now grante di could have mis read part of the argument i replied in the middle to, and i did a general reply not quoting what specfically i was replying to.

I think you do not understand what you are talking about.

The system no more dictates what is possible or allowed than a physics textbook is the sum total of what a physicist can do in his/her profession. The textbook provides a framework for learning how to approach a problem and examples of the kinds of problems that a physicist may deal with. It teaches concepts through practical examples, but does not place limits on what is possible with that education. But if you cannot go beyond the textbook and apply what you have learned creatively to solve unique problems, then you are not a physicist, even though you passed the class.

Using martial arts in an actual encounter is about applying your training to a unique situation. That often means creative application and even doing things that are not part of the codified/formalized curriculum. That in no way means you are outside the system or are no longer using your training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hands. They're not technically bites, fight bites are usually caused by the fist impacting on the teeth. I teach students to avoid punching someone in the mouth. It's too easy to hurt themselves, and it's at least as effective, if not more so, to aim for the point of the chin or the philtrum.

ahhh. people who think that it's actually good to punch the one thing on the human body designed to cut flesh.

I'm like you. I have no interest in giving someone a bloody lip via punch. I just took a look at some photos of people who punch teeth, nasty wounds (Fight Bite).

 

[Dirty Dog]

ahhh. people who think that it's actually good to punch the one thing on the human body designed to cut flesh.

I'm like you. I have no interest in giving someone a bloody lip via punch. I just took a look at some photos of people who punch teeth, nasty wounds (Fight Bite).

They really are. Punching someone in the mouth is one of those things that seems like a good idea. Until you do it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think you do not understand what you are talking about.

The system no more dictates what is possible or allowed than a physics textbook is the sum total of what a physicist can do in his/her profession. The textbook provides a framework for learning how to approach a problem and examples of the kinds of problems that a physicist may deal with. It teaches concepts through practical examples, but does not place limits on what is possible with that education. But if you cannot go beyond the textbook and apply what you have learned creatively to solve unique problems, then you are not a physicist, even though you passed the class.

Using martial arts in an actual encounter is about applying your training to a unique situation. That often means creative application and even doing things that are not part of the codified/formalized curriculum. That in no way means you are outside the system or are no longer using your training.

I think the confusion is probably due to how TMA systems are often portrayed. Different schools will train the same system but follow different theories and concepts. and that's often lost on people who don't train in a TMA.
Those who train in a TMA understand this because it often comes up in regular school conversations about how Sifu A trains and teaches like this and Sifu B trains and teaches differently. Then you go to Vietnam and it's a totally different approach but it's the same System or Family. Many people don't realize that Curriculum = Teacher Preference.

There are also common fight actions that one may take that is so common that it doesn't below to any system and as such is not recognized as part of the system, but an option that can be done within the system. TMA schools trying to stay in the dark doesn't help clarify things. It just leaves people open to make their own assumptions about what they are seeing.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think the confusion is probably due to how TMA systems are often portrayed. Different schools will train the same system but follow different theories and concepts. and that's often lost on people who don't train in a TMA.
Those who train in a TMA understand this because it often comes up in regular school conversations about how Sifu A trains and teaches like this and Sifu B trains and teaches differently. Then you go to Vietnam and it's a totally different approach but it's the same System or Family. Many people don't realize that Curriculum = Teacher Preference.

There are also common fight actions that one may take that is so common that it doesn't below to any system and as such is not recognized as part of the system, but an option that can be done within the system. TMA schools trying to stay in the dark doesn't help clarify things. It just leaves people open to make their own assumptions about what they are seeing.

And it doesn’t help when those making the assumptions have no experience with it.

 

[Buka]

Boxing gloves were originally made to protect a punchers hands, not to protect an opponent's head.
The term boxers fracture (or brawlers fracture) is a break in the metacarpal of the ring or pinky finger, because boxers punching with their hands wrapped and taped, hook punch with the wrong part of their hand. Good martial artists know the proper part of the fist to hit with. It's why we do knuckle pushups on our front two knuckles and on our front two knuckles only.

Mouth guards are designed to protect your teeth, lips, mouth and jaw from damage when hit in the face, it's why we have dentists make them for us. We don't go to an opponents hand surgeon to get a mouthpiece, we go to a good dentist.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Mouth guards are designed to protect your teeth

I have a video of a person I was sparring with who chipped his tooth by himself. I got it on video, but I think he was reacting to me attacking him and he moved his head in a way that caused his teeth to clash, and that's all that it took.

When it happened people where like. What happened? Because he turned like he got hit. At first we didn't know what to think because we assumed he had his mouth guard in. It wasn't until we were sure he was ok, that we learned he chipped his tooth. He was fortunate that he chipped his own tooth. It could have been much worse had he been punched in the right way.

 

[Buka]

I have a video of a person I was sparring with who chipped his tooth by himself. I got it on video, but I think he was reacting to me attacking him and he moved his head in a way that caused his teeth to clash, and that's all that it took.

When it happened people where like. What happened? Because he turned like he got hit. At first we didn't know what to think because we assumed he had his mouth guard in. It wasn't until we were sure he was ok, that we learned he chipped his tooth. He was fortunate that he chipped his own tooth. It could have been much worse had he been punched in the right way.

Stuff happens sometimes, but I'll bet you'll never let a student fight without a mouthpiece again.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I think you do not understand what you are talking about.

The system no more dictates what is possible or allowed than a physics textbook is the sum total of what a physicist can do in his/her profession. The textbook provides a framework for learning how to approach a problem and examples of the kinds of problems that a physicist may deal with. It teaches concepts through practical examples, but does not place limits on what is possible with that education. But if you cannot go beyond the textbook and apply what you have learned creatively to solve unique problems, then you are not a physicist, even though you passed the class.

I dont understand how this is a rebuttal to any points i made, and i dont really understand the refrence or the greater point here. It looks like more of a strawman as im having a hard time finding where it attached to.

I do take issue with the science anaology though, as thats not very good. A better refrence is "if you are in a physics class, you dont learn biology" . Or to textbook it, a physics textbook is about physics not biology.


Now i will highlight the second part and reply to that with hopes it makes my point clear to clear up any poteional confustion and straw manning.

Using martial arts in an actual encounter is about applying your training to a unique situation.* That often means creative application and even doing things that are not part of the codified/formalized curriculum. That in no way means you are outside the system or are no longer using your training.**

*I only disagree with your choice of words here. A combat system would teach you what ever is in its currcilem and you would apply it to come to a combat solution when needed.

Now, the second half** of this is where a contradiction comes up.

"That often means creative application and even doing things that are not part of the codified/formalized curriculum. That in no way means you are outside the system or are no longer using your training."

I have rewritten the above to better illistrate my point and remove what i view as a strawman.

"That often means creative application and even doing things that are not part of the System. That in no way means you are outside the system"

As you can see, i changed "codified/formalized curriculum" to "system" as i belive we agreed or i stated i support that as the definition of system. And i removed "or are no longer using your training.", as i view this as a strawman. I never said you wouldnt be using your training if you weere trained in something and used it.


In short, those words are a contradiction, you have stated you can go beyond your system and still be using your system as that makes no sense in a limited system. Unless you mean a unlimited which i did not think you meant and dont support in this context. I have no evidence that Wing chun is a unlimited system, it has a specfic area of combat it explores and stays in. Among other reasons i find that point silly.



Addendum:

I think you do not understand what you are talking about.

There was abolutely no need for that statement, i did not place any blame on anyone for any mis understandings. I accepted you could have mis read something or i could have mis worded something that lead to confusion.

As i do belive there is a legitimate misunderstanding here. I dont really see how this leads off each other, other than some word and definiton issues which indicates potetionally some mis understanding.

this is where i think you didnt understand my point correctly (who evers fault not relivent).

That would be the quote, thats diffrent in tone to the above quote.

 

[drop bear]

Wait, what? The next thing you'll tell me is my mouthguard is to protect my teeth and not my opponent's fists.

There is a theory going around that it is that case with gloves. And because martial artists love a good story. A lot have people have turned it into a fact.

I am sceptical. But then I know some bare knuckle guys.

It is a very convenient way of explaining why you can't box without saying you are garbage at boxing.

So dudes like this guy.

And you go like. "Hey bro. The now have bare knuckle championships as a mainstream competition. You should be like totally in your wheelhouse right now"

And they be like "................"