The 'average guy on the street'

[ralphmcpherson]

More and more I hear people talk about how martial arts "arent what they used to be" and how they "give people the false impression they can fight", or "if you tried that on the street you would see why it doesnt work" or "the public perception of a black belt is so wrong, most black belts these days couldnt fight their way out of a wet paper bag" etc. I was talking with someone the other day and they were of the belief that even if you do a very watered down "family friendly" martial art that only trains a couple of hours a week and hands out black belts like they are going out of fashion (basically a mcdojo), you would still be significantly better than the "average guy on the street" because at least they are doing some form of learning how to defend themself and are sparring, kicking, punching etc on a weekly basis unlike 'average joe', plus the fitness and conditioning that goes with doing a martial art. I think to a degree his point had some merrit, if I take myself, for instance, prior to starting martial arts I had been in 2 fights in my life (which were over very quickly, and I was not the victor) and I had probably thrown 4 or 5 punches in my life and I dont think Id ever even attempted a kick. Now after 5+ years of training, I have probably thrown hundreds of thousands of punches and kicks and have been taught to do them technically correct rather than just throwing them wildly and have thrown them against resisting opponents (albeit under a ruleset for sparring). But still I read about how the 'average guy on the street' would easily dispose of most martial artists these days. So, how good is this 'average guy on the street'?, and do you believe somebody training in anything would have an increased chance of success against this average guy soley due to the fact that at least they are doing some form of training, or do you believe (like many others), that their training would only improve their chances on "the street" by a very small degree?

 

[Omar B]

Depends on what you call average. Training does give you an edge over the "average" but that's a movable point that always shifts in conversation every tim you say "Yes, I can beat that guy." So what if this average guy was stronger than you? Faster than you? Drunk? High on PCP?

The long and short of it is people who pose these average guy question are hardly ever talking about an average, but really looking for you to say "Yes, some big drunk guy high on PCP could beat me up. Happy now? Yes your collection of hypotheticals which bear no resemblance to any average can beat me."

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Depends on what you call average. Training does give you an edge over the "average" but that's a movable point that always shifts in conversation every tim you say "Yes, I can beat that guy." So what if this average guy was stronger than you? Faster than you? Drunk? High on PCP?

The long and short of it is people who pose these average guy question are hardly ever talking about an average, but really looking for you to say "Yes, some big drunk guy high on PCP could beat me up. Happy now? Yes your collection of hypotheticals which bear no resemblance to any average can beat me."

Good point. You do hear people say "lets see how good your mcdojo training is when you come accross some huge, drunk guy high on amphetamines", but then I dont think that 12 solid months of muay thai is going to help you much against that guy either. One thing I have noticed when seeing streets fights is that the 'average' guy on the street cant fight very well at all.

 

[ATC]

Average guys don't fight. Fighters fight. I fought a lot as a kid (5 - 21 years old) and everyone I ever fought trained in some shape or fashion. You don't have to ever worry about the average guy, it is the fighters you have to worry about. The high school wrestler, the local boxing guy, and yes the fellow Martial Artist. Fighters fight and fighters train. Average guys work and go to school, they don't fight.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Average guys don't fight. Fighters fight. I fought a lot as a kid (5 - 21 years old) and everyone I ever fought trained in some shape or fashion. You don't have to ever worry about the average guy, it is the fighters you have to worry about. The high school wrestler, the local boxing guy, and yes the fellow Martial Artist. Fighters fight and fighters train. Average guys work and go to school, they don't fight.

Thats what I thought initially, but after seeing some fights people upload onto youtube, fights you see on the news from cctv footage, fights you see in pubs and clubs etc, there seem to be a hell of a lot of 'untrained' fighters getting into fights.

 

[oftheherd1]

Thats what I thought initially, but after seeing some fights people upload onto youtube, fights you see on the news from cctv footage, fights you see in pubs and clubs etc, there seem to be a hell of a lot of 'untrained' fighters getting into fights.

To some extent there always have been. But again, what is average, as Omar B says, and even if you only get in a fair amount of fights, that is training, just as your time in the dojo was.

Any training has to give you one up. The more combat/street oriented it is, the better of course. Even so, one must always know that there is always some one out there who will beat you, and be prepared for that also. As well, there is always someone who can get some blows in, even if they can't win the fight. Those who don't know that and factor it in to a fight will lose quickly. Maybe that's a good thing too.

But ATC has the better answer about fighters.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Everybody knows a little something. Its in our nature.
Sean

 

[WC_lun]

Something to also think about is that the average guy when enraged can be very dangerous. Ask any LEO. In my opinion, the biggest problems with many, many, martial art schools is a combination of unrealistic training and false confidence. You get Mr. Martial Artist fighting Mr Average and Mr Average starts walking through Mr Martial Artist's techniques because he is enraged and the techniques are not good to use against an enraged opponent. Mr Martial Artist is then like a duck out of water and has no fall back because those fantasy techniques were supposed to work!

You can test some of this in your own school. Gear up and have your opponent keep coming forward no matter what. He gets hit he steps toward you. He hits you, he steps into you. He grabs you, he keeps driving forward. He does not stop to play the game of sparring. It can be very disconcerting for the martial artist that has trained entirely with a different rythem and mind set.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Something to also think about is that the average guy when enraged can be very dangerous. Ask any LEO. In my opinion, the biggest problems with many, many, martial art schools is a combination of unrealistic training and false confidence. You get Mr. Martial Artist fighting Mr Average and Mr Average starts walking through Mr Martial Artist's techniques because he is enraged and the techniques are not good to use against an enraged opponent. Mr Martial Artist is then like a duck out of water and has no fall back because those fantasy techniques were supposed to work!

You can test some of this in your own school. Gear up and have your opponent keep coming forward no matter what. He gets hit he steps toward you. He hits you, he steps into you. He grabs you, he keeps driving forward. He does not stop to play the game of sparring. It can be very disconcerting for the martial artist that has trained entirely with a different rythem and mind set.

This is what I meant to say.

 

[ATC]

Thats what I thought initially, but after seeing some fights people upload onto youtube, fights you see on the news from cctv footage, fights you see in pubs and clubs etc, there seem to be a hell of a lot of 'untrained' fighters getting into fights.

Just becuase those fights looked ugly, awkward or not what you expected them to look like does not mean much. Fights will not look like what we see in the Dojang/Dojo, or even UFC or MMA. I have always trained since 8 in the martial arts, but not one of my fights every looked pretty or even coordinated. Most fights will look ugly but that does not mean that participants can't fight. If you can take hits and keep swinging back then that is all you really need. It is all about who is standing last and that is it.

I think there was only one time where I had a street fight (again, when I was young and dumb) that I even used any of my training to make it look pretty. That was when I fought a boxer. Because he choose to box it actually looked like a sparring match. It only lasted about 15 seconds but it was the cleanest fight I ever had.

 

[Noah_Legel]

I tend to look at the "average guy on the street" in a different way. The way I see it, my training gives me a major advantage over the average victim, and that is what will give me the advantage over an attacker. I don't get into "fights" so if I end up having to use my training it will be because I allowed myself to be cornered through carelessness or a lapse in judgment, and while I may not have the same life fighting experience that my attacker might have I am going to be a heck of a lot harder for him to beat up than his average victim.

 

[MJS]

More and more I hear people talk about how martial arts "arent what they used to be" and how they "give people the false impression they can fight", or "if you tried that on the street you would see why it doesnt work" or "the public perception of a black belt is so wrong, most black belts these days couldnt fight their way out of a wet paper bag" etc. I was talking with someone the other day and they were of the belief that even if you do a very watered down "family friendly" martial art that only trains a couple of hours a week and hands out black belts like they are going out of fashion (basically a mcdojo), you would still be significantly better than the "average guy on the street" because at least they are doing some form of learning how to defend themself and are sparring, kicking, punching etc on a weekly basis unlike 'average joe', plus the fitness and conditioning that goes with doing a martial art. I think to a degree his point had some merrit, if I take myself, for instance, prior to starting martial arts I had been in 2 fights in my life (which were over very quickly, and I was not the victor) and I had probably thrown 4 or 5 punches in my life and I dont think Id ever even attempted a kick. Now after 5+ years of training, I have probably thrown hundreds of thousands of punches and kicks and have been taught to do them technically correct rather than just throwing them wildly and have thrown them against resisting opponents (albeit under a ruleset for sparring). But still I read about how the 'average guy on the street' would easily dispose of most martial artists these days. So, how good is this 'average guy on the street'?, and do you believe somebody training in anything would have an increased chance of success against this average guy soley due to the fact that at least they are doing some form of training, or do you believe (like many others), that their training would only improve their chances on "the street" by a very small degree?

A few different parts to your thread so I'll address each one seperate.

Regarding the quality of martial arts training. IMHO, I would say no, the mcdojo, family friendly, occasional student, probably would not be the best choice. I say this because if the school isn't teaching quality material, if the student isn't taking the training serious, if the sparring is the light, tippity-tappity stuff, with little to no contact, then personally, I wouldn't put too much faith in someone successfully defending themselves, even if the badguy was someone with zero formal training, just the typical street thug. I mean, just because someone owns a gun, doesnt mean that under duress, they're going to be capable of defending themselves with it.

Now, chances are, the 'average Joe' isn't going to be the evil twin of Gracie or Shamrock. But, this doesnt mean that they're totally incapable of fighting either. They could be a version of a Kimbo, someone with no 'formal' training, yet a bunch of street fights, somenoe who's used to fighting dirty, someone who's used to contact. OTOH, the BG could be a complete pushover..a few hits, and the guy is down. Personally, I like to train for the worst case scenario. In other words, I like to assume the BG is a trained person. Until we start to engage with them, we're probably not going to know what they're capable of.

As for training....during my teaching years, I've seen many students, both advanced students, and black belts, and I'd think the same thing...."Man, God help the student if they ever get attacked, and why the hell were they awarded the rank around their waist??" These are people who rarely make any contact during SD drills. IMHO, you're going to fight like you train, so.....if its any indication of what the results outside of the dojo will be.....

 

[MJS]

Good point. You do hear people say "lets see how good your mcdojo training is when you come accross some huge, drunk guy high on amphetamines", but then I dont think that 12 solid months of muay thai is going to help you much against that guy either. One thing I have noticed when seeing streets fights is that the 'average' guy on the street cant fight very well at all.

I'd say the type of training the student is receiving and who they're receiving it, also plays a big part. For example, lets look at the learning process. When I'd give intro lessons to new Kenpo students, we'd cover a few very basic punches, a few basic blocks, a few basic kicks. These were done from a static stance, with no movement. The average student probably wouldn't see any contact, for a while.

Now, lets look at a boxer. Chances are, they're going to learn some punches, and footwork, move onto some pad work. No, this probably wont happen in one day, but I'd be willing to bet, you'd see a boxer engage in some live training, alot sooner than the Kenpo student.

OTOH, I feel confident to say that if I dropped all the usual formalities, ie: went right to the meat of the training, left out the katas, drastically trimmed down the techs, that within a few months, the student would have skills that they could apply a hell of alot quicker, instead of waiting for a long period of time. Why do I say this? You're able to give them a smaller skill set, that can be driiled alot easier, applied alot quicker, and you can move into more alive training, quicker.

 

[chinto]

I think it depends more on the type of martial art, the instructor and if they have told the instructor they are looking for self defense from the get go, and how hard they train at said art.
most arts that are not sportified are very efficient and effective. now some of the ones that have been heavily modified for sport use are not so much applicable.

I would say its more about basic style, instructor and student then anything else.

Now the so called average guy is kinda tenuous at best. take 100 men from any public place and you will get a huge variety as to skill level, training if any, and will and what is sometimes called "rocks in the belly". but I would say any one who has trained hard in an actual older style of martial arts, trained with self defense in mind, can be if he is willing, a lethal threat. that is if he was trained as the arts are supposed to be trained in.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Just becuase those fights looked ugly, awkward or not what you expected them to look like does not mean much. Fights will not look like what we see in the Dojang/Dojo, or even UFC or MMA. I have always trained since 8 in the martial arts, but not one of my fights every looked pretty or even coordinated. Most fights will look ugly but that does not mean that participants can't fight. If you can take hits and keep swinging back then that is all you really need. It is all about who is standing last and that is it.

I think there was only one time where I had a street fight (again, when I was young and dumb) that I even used any of my training to make it look pretty. That was when I fought a boxer. Because he choose to box it actually looked like a sparring match. It only lasted about 15 seconds but it was the cleanest fight I ever had.

That is understandable, and I certainly dont expect a street fight to look anything even remotely like a dojo sparring match, but I still believe you can watch someone fight and tell if they are trained. When I was younger I didnt fight, but I did hang with the wrong crowd at times and saw countless street fights, and from what I saw someone who is trained just fights differently. I had a mate who was a good boxer and when he fought he didnt fight like a classical boxer but you could tell by the way he threw a punch that he wasnt just average joe, even his footwork gave it away. Street fights are messy but I still think its pretty obvious, particularly with some experience, to tell if one or both in the fight have any actual 'training', and by training I mean 5 or 6 years minimum not 6 months of karate or something like that. Id be pretty surprised to see someone with 10 years of good training in a reputable MA get into a street fight and suddenly have no balance, no footwork and throwing sloppy hay maker punches. I also respect the fact that there are some really good 'fighters' who may have no training at all. I was just saying in my previous post that looking at some of the fights Ive seen lately, whether in real life or on the news, youtube etc, it would appear that there are a lot of people with clearly no training at all getting into fights.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

This is a good question, and it needs to be broken down a bit.

Average guy - is this person the average couch potato that eats too much fast food and plays too many video games? Or is this person someone who has been in and out of prison for the last 15 years? Is he a 'trusty of modern chemistry' i.e. drug addict? The 'term' average could mean different things to different people.

McDojo/McDojang - many already know my stance on this, but I don't mind expounding. Most places these days concentrate on sport training rather than self-defense training. This is because sport is easier and more commercially sellable. And too be very direct and honest about it, most only know the sport side. They teach from theory rather than experience (either on their own part or on the part of who trained them). That isn't to disrespect or devalue those training on the sport side, but there is a difference.

We react the way we train.

So I don't have to retype the whole thing: http://excoboard.com/martialwarrior/148250/1801375

This is important! And again, no disrespect to the other side of the house. The statement that 'a little training is better than no training' isn't exactly correct. If the initial training is bad, it could actually be a detriment in a real world altercation. On the other hand, a little good training can carry the day. As I've mentioned many times, WWII combatives as taught by Fairbairn and/or O'Neill was a VERY short course but has been demonstrated to be extremelty useable in real world altercations and retained in long term memory. In some cases even decades after initial training. Training such as this has a focus on gross motor skills and simple, but effective techniques.

The question becomes; how many modern 'Mcdojo/McDojangs' use this training methodology? Serious question.

If a martial artist has trained in a specific, limited environment that focuses on refined motor skills against semi-resisting opponents under certain conditions...how will he/she fare against a 'street fighter' who just doesn't give a care and doesn't obey the same rules? How many times have you seen the opponent throw a half-hearted punch a foot to the side of his partners head and then sorta leave it there for his partner to grab and do something fancy? How well do the flashy kicks work? Now let's put them in jeans or a dress with high heels on snow, grass, sloping surface etc and see how they work. Let's put the lights out and see how we do. Let's try our technique in an elevator or on the stairs or between two parked cars and see what happens. This is what I'm talking about.

Bottom line...I just don't like the 'McMartial Artists' chances.

 

[Jenna]

From what I have witnessed here recently, the "average guy on the street" when we are talking about a potential aggressor is either 1. drunk and with little by way of coordination and therefore not so much of a threat in a physical capacity (though problematic in groups and also problematic due to his other antisocial activities) or 2. the kind of person that is happy to stick you with a concealed blade for no apparent reason other than you are not in his race, creed or clique or he just does not like the look of you. I find these scenarios worrying enough to temper which places I can go and when I go. I think it is hard to defend against this latter type of blade-carrying sociopathic "average guy on the street" except to avoid however possible.

Also I think who or what is "average" depends on you yourself and where you fit on a fighting or defending scale. If you are a competent martial artist, big, fit, muscular and you look threatening in your own way then I should think "the average guy" is generally lesser of everything and therefore not as big a threat. If you are in any way not well-trained in your art or are smaller or less fit, less strong or do not look so tough then I think you are veering to the more disadvantaged end of the average scale and must compensate your weakness by strengthening some other aspect?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Jenna,

In regards to your first point, we should remember that drunks come in different flavors. Some are the falling down, sloppy drunks that are fairly easily handled. Others are mean drunks that have a high pain tolerance and often high levels of strength. These types are a handful.

In regards to your second point, you're right on the money. I see you're in London. GB has a distinct problem with edged weapon attacks for the reasons you've listed. I've seen street video of people being attacked at a bus stop...just because they were standing there. These types of attacks are hard to defend against because they are random and senseless.

 

[Jenna]

Jenna,

In regards to your first point, we should remember that drunks come in different flavors. Some are the falling down, sloppy drunks that are fairly easily handled. Others are mean drunks that have a high pain tolerance and often high levels of strength. These types are a handful.

In regards to your second point, you're right on the money. I see you're in London. GB has a distinct problem with edged weapon attacks for the reasons you've listed. I've seen street video of people being attacked at a bus stop...just because they were standing there. These types of attacks are hard to defend against because they are random and senseless.

Agree with you completely yes! It can be impossible to predict which flavour of drunk you are confronted with. At first some appear to be only verbally abusive even if you are just walking by and but they would be harmless otherwise then with no warning they would become belligerent and would confronting you or worse, swinging hooks. As I say, groups of drunken young men are not a situation I am happy to find myself in so would avoid at all costs. And yes, in England here, drinking to excess is now ingrained in the culture unfortunately as is the blade as weapon of choice for street kids. So I guess to the original post, whereabouts you are located in the world would also be a factor in what counts as the "average guy in the street" would you agree?

 

[MJS]

This is a good question, and it needs to be broken down a bit.

Average guy - is this person the average couch potato that eats too much fast food and plays too many video games? Or is this person someone who has been in and out of prison for the last 15 years? Is he a 'trusty of modern chemistry' i.e. drug addict? The 'term' average could mean different things to different people.

Agreed, the term could mean a variety of things. I mentioned that in my other post as well.

McDojo/McDojang - many already know my stance on this, but I don't mind expounding. Most places these days concentrate on sport training rather than self-defense training. This is because sport is easier and more commercially sellable. And too be very direct and honest about it, most only know the sport side. They teach from theory rather than experience (either on their own part or on the part of who trained them). That isn't to disrespect or devalue those training on the sport side, but there is a difference.

Agreed again. As I too have said before, in many cases, the schools tend to cater to what the public wants, which unfortunately, isnt always a good thing, or what the owner of the school wants, but to avoid shutting down due to lack of students, if he relies on the students for $$, then yes, he has to change or risk not having a huge student base.

We react the way we train.

Agreed 100%.

This is important! And again, no disrespect to the other side of the house. The statement that 'a little training is better than no training' isn't exactly correct. If the initial training is bad, it could actually be a detriment in a real world altercation. On the other hand, a little good training can carry the day. As I've mentioned many times, WWII combatives as taught by Fairbairn and/or O'Neill was a VERY short course but has been demonstrated to be extremelty useable in real world altercations and retained in long term memory. In some cases even decades after initial training. Training such as this has a focus on gross motor skills and simple, but effective techniques.

Addressed this in my 2nd post. The combatives that you mention follow the KISS concept....keep it short and sweet as well as effective. This is what I was talking about when I mentioned the bare bones material. That said, I agree with this as well.

The question becomes; how many modern 'Mcdojo/McDojangs' use this training methodology? Serious question.

If a martial artist has trained in a specific, limited environment that focuses on refined motor skills against semi-resisting opponents under certain conditions...how will he/she fare against a 'street fighter' who just doesn't give a care and doesn't obey the same rules? How many times have you seen the opponent throw a half-hearted punch a foot to the side of his partners head and then sorta leave it there for his partner to grab and do something fancy? How well do the flashy kicks work? Now let's put them in jeans or a dress with high heels on snow, grass, sloping surface etc and see how they work. Let's put the lights out and see how we do. Let's try our technique in an elevator or on the stairs or between two parked cars and see what happens. This is what I'm talking about.

Bottom line...I just don't like the 'McMartial Artists' chances.

Very good points! I agree with this as well. Let me address some points. How many Mcdojos teach the WWII type of material you mentioned or that mindset? Probably not many if any at all. They're not interested in that, instead they're more interested in how many 5yo BBs are running around, how many BBs they have total, and just cashing the check each month. Do they have any concern for the growth of the students? Maybe, but I doubt they have much.

Someone who trains with a semi resistant person is IMO, going to stand a better chance than someone who trains against no resistance. This is why its also up to the student, to seek out that type of training. Many times, I'd do training with my teachers and other workout partners, that we'd never dream of doing in the class room. Why? Because its not for everyone. So yes, many times, we'd gear up with the bare essentials, and just go. Hard body shots, elbows, knees, clinch work, ground work, etc. Yes, I know, the next thing someone will say is that you can't replicate a real fight. OTOH, you can get very close to it though. People talk about sparring and how thats supposed to be as close to a real fight, yet safety is in mind. Well, yeah, I'd agree with that, IF the sparring wasnt the light touch, tippy/tappy point stuff. If you're not adding in contact, hard contact, then no, the light touch stuff probably wont prep the student well enough.

Empty hand SD....nothing pisses me off more, when I'm working a tech, and they go to choke me and they have their hands on my shoulders, not my neck. Put your damn hands on my neck and squeeze!!!! If you're gonna punch me, aim for my face. If I screw up and get hit, thats my fault, but stopping 5in away from me isnt helping me, its hurting me.

IMHO, the martial arts involve contact. If you're training for Sd, then you better be used to that contact and if you're not, then perhaps the martial arts are not for you, if SD is your goal. (I'm saying "you" as a general reference, I'm not talking about you KSD )