Thai Style Checking vs Jin Ji Du Li

[Tony Dismukes]

Just realized I wrote this poorly. I definitely wasn't saying Muay Thai has no clinch. I guess I was trying to say is what people think of as "Thai clinch" in MMA etc, or what muay khao specialists do, are not exclusive to Muay Thai at all, they're common across the entire region. Nothing special, really.

There are just different types of clinch depending on the art, but again, if Muay Thai is the only Asian standup full contact art you know, it's a "Thai" clinch to you. But if you'd trained three arts with the same clinch stuff in it, you'd have a hard time calling it Thai. In Asian arts that allow basically all the standup strikes and clinching, throwing the nationality doesn't matter so much. A lot of these countries have the same arts, just different names.

As I am fond of saying, in China they just call it "food".

Lots of arts have clinch work, but most of them don't clinch the same way the Thais do. Just like lots of arts have kicks, but they don't necessarily kick the same way Tae Kwon Do specialists do.

There are probably some other systems from countries close to Thailand which work in a similar way due to cross-pollination (Lethwei, for example), but they are much less well known to the world-wide public than Muay Thai. In modern MMA circles almost every fighter has at least some Muay Thai training, but I don't know if there are any UFC fighters with a Lethwei background.

If I had a gripe about MMA commentary calling something a "Thai clinch", it's that the term is almost exclusively used to describe one particular position, i.e. the "plum" (double-collar tie). Muay Thai clinch work involves a lot more than just that one position.

 

[jayoliver00]

Seen it, yes. But it's a rather silly thing to do. Unless that art is absolutely the only one that ever does that technique.

Oh, so you've never seen this practice being used in the MA world neither then.

 

[jayoliver00]

There are just different types of clinch depending on the art, but again, if Muay Thai is the only Asian standup full contact art you know, it's a "Thai" clinch to you. But if you'd trained three arts with the same clinch stuff in it, you'd have a hard time calling it Thai. In Asian arts that allow basically all the standup strikes and clinching, throwing the nationality doesn't matter so much. A lot of these countries have the same arts, just different names.

As I am fond of saying, in China they just call it "food".

So you've never seen this practice as a common one in the world of martial arts before?

 

[jayoliver00]

What's the difference between to

- block a punch that coming toward your face, and
- knee strike that coming toward your face?

In both cases, you need skill to achieve that.

In the following clip, both opponents have chance to use left hand to catch the other's right kneeing leg. The knee striking is toward the chest, not toward the head.

If they are pure strikers (without take down intention), they may not be able to recognize that opportunity.

These 2 certainly knew ground grappling. It's just a real fight and not a demo. Your technique certainly does work as that's 1 of our sweeps in MT also, just like catching a kick.

 

[jayoliver00]

How difficult is it for either opponent to catch the other person's kneeing leg in this clip? But if his plan doesn't include that strategy, when the opportunity arrives, he may miss it.

Most of those knee striking aim toward the chest.

It's not easy if the other guy's Anderson Silva. The original pic that you were replying to, the guy caught in the full plum, had his posture broken; where he was bent down & about to take knees to the face. In this video, Rich Franklin was caught in the full plum but he still kept posture. I agree, he could use your tech as seen in your KF video; but it's not that easy while you're eating knees & Anderson Silva knows the counter to what you're saying. We have this tech in MT and Anderson Silva is mainly a MT guy.

 

[jayoliver00]

Was he any good as a Thai boxer?

What non Thai clinchwork looks like.

LMAO, that picture really got me. I got scammed by a guy on FB about how great of a Nak Muay he was too; until he posted a vid of himself holding pads for his 1 and only student.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Seen it, yes. But it's a rather silly thing to do. Unless that art is absolutely the only one that ever does that technique.

Oh, so you've never seen this practice being used in the MA world neither then.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

 

[jayoliver00]

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

which part?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The original pic that you were replying to, the guy caught in the full plum, had his posture broken; where he was bent down & about to take knees to the face.

I agree that if A can break B's structure, A's MA skill is better than B. B already loses at that moment.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Lots of arts have clinch work, but most of them don't clinch the same way the Thais do. Just like lots of arts have kicks, but they don't necessarily kick the same way Tae Kwon Do specialists do.

There are probably some other systems from countries close to Thailand which work in a similar way due to cross-pollination (Lethwei, for example), but they are much less well known to the world-wide public than Muay Thai. In modern MMA circles almost every fighter has at least some Muay Thai training, but I don't know if there are any UFC fighters with a Lethwei background.

If I had a gripe about MMA commentary calling something a "Thai clinch", it's that the term is almost exclusively used to describe one particular position, i.e. the "plum" (double-collar tie). Muay Thai clinch work involves a lot more than just that one position.

You're right. But Muay Thai's popularity is a little unfortunate. Because they're all based on folk wrestling (a lot of which was shared between different regions), a lot of them do clinch the same as Muay Thai (it's not rocket science or fancy stuff, after all). One funny note, they all have the little pre-fight dance thing. Lethwei has the "Yay".

I'd be curious of the exact breakdown and who trained Muay Thai, vs. something practically identical (Tomoi, Lethwei). There are generations of Lethwei fighters going back before we were born. I try to not use UFC as a measuring stick...there's a lot more out there in the competition circuits.

Here's a great interview with Dave Leduc, Lethwei legend, and his thoughts on Muay Thai...

Lethwei champion Dave Leduc: ‘I didn’t like Muay Thai, because there were gloves’

Lethwei, Myanmar’s national sport, is one of the most brutal striking styles in the world—allowing bare knuckle punches, elbows, kicks, knees and headbutts.

www.bloodyelbow.com

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Lots of arts have clinch work, but most of them don't clinch the same way the Thais do.

Agree! IMO, MT may be the only MA system that during clinch, your opponent still has 2 free arms.

 

[Oily Dragon]

So you've never seen this practice as a common one in the world of martial arts before?

Didn't you ask me that yesterday, and I gave you that welcome and information-filled response. Well I tried, so now I have to be brutally honest. Is this Muay Thai? If not, then what?

Note the Gum Gai Dok Lop Ma (金雞獨立馬). Is that technique a "Thai" technique. Is it a Burmese Knee? What about Southern White Crane Duk Gerk Fei Hok (獨脚飛鶴)? Single Leg Hungry Crane?

The answer may surprise you, but that's normal for a new student of Asian fighting arts. Good news, you're on a martial arts forum with people who have experienced many different arts, and I am one of them.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Agree! IMO, MT may be the only MA system that during clinch, your opponent still has 2 free arms.

This is because the MT clinch is more oriented towards setting up knees than setting up throws.

Although as I noted elsewhere, the plum (double collar tie) position is just one aspect of the MT clinch game. There are other positions you can use in MT which do control the opponent's arms more.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is because the MT clinch is more oriented towards setting up knees than setting up throws.

Although as I noted elsewhere, the plum (double collar tie) position is just one aspect of the MT clinch game. There are other positions you can use in MT which do control the opponent's arms more.

The double collar tie is very similar to the double hands neck choke. One counter against the neck choke is to lock both fists as a big fist. Use it as a wedge. You strike up toward your opponent's chin. This will break the neck choke.

Does MT use the wedge concept to break the double collar tie? I can't find any video for that.

I would assume that if MT guys train the double collar tie, they should also train how to break it apart.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agree! IMO, MT may be the only MA system that during clinch, your opponent still has 2 free arms.

My brother put me in a Muay Thai clinch and the only thing I clearly remember is how he kept breaking my structure and how my body kept searching for balance. He didn't kill me with knees or anything because he's like me. He spars to learn. I had a lot of time to just sit in the clinch and enjoy just how screwed I was and how important it was for me to regain balance. If this is how the clinch is done, then you won't be able to grab the knee unless you can maintain a solid stance or break the clinch. The breaking of the person's balance was a technique thing and not a strength one. My brother used very little effort to control me. I know for a fact that some MMA fighters aren't using the clinch correctly and that they are muscling through it. If you muscle through the clinch then you aren't going to have an easy time breaking the other person's balance and that's what we often see in MMA. When it's done correctly the person in the clinch feels like they are getting ragged doll.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The double collar tie is very similar to the double hands neck choke. One counter against the neck choke is to lock both fists as a big fist. Use it as a wedge. You strike up toward your opponent's chin. This will break the neck choke.

Does MT use the wedge concept to break the double collar tie? I can't find any video for that.

I would assume that if MT guys train the double collar tie, they should also train how to break it apart.

MT training includes a lot of ways to break the double collar tie. The one you mention doesn't really work well because the double collar tie is structurally different from a two hand frontal choke.

The choke counter you mention works when the opponent's arms are basically extended straight towards your throat. So when you raise your "big fist" wedge from underneath you strike your opponent's arms at 90 degrees at an angle where they are weak. Furthermore, the opponent's elbows will generally be far enough apart so that your wedge can fit between his arms and split them apart.

In contrast, the double collar tie has your opponent's arms bent with his upper arms angled down into your chest, his forearms pressed against your chest and collar bones, and his elbows pinched tight. Your big fist wedge doesn't have a favorable angle of force and probably can't fit between the elbows to split the arms.

Here are some MT counters for the double collar tie:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here are some MT counters for the double collar tie:

You are right. The front bear hug is also a good counter for double collar tie. One of my guy's favor moves.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You are right. The front bear hug is also a good counter for double collar tie. One of my guy's favor moves.

Interestingly enough, the double collar tie can also be a counter to the front bear hug. It all depends on who executes better.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Interestingly enough, the double collar tie can also be a counter to the front bear hug. It all depends on who executes better.

When you have double collar tie on your opponent, how do you prevent his arms from bear hug on your waist?

When I get a head lock on my opponent, since my opponent still has 1 free arm, most of the time his free arm would wrap around my waist. I have to change my head lock into over hook to counter his waist control.

Do MT guys use over hook to counter waist wrap? To use over hook to counter one arm waist wrap is easy. To use over hook to counter 2 arms waist wrap is harder.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

When you have double collar tie on your opponent, how do you prevent his arms from bear hug on your waist?

Use your elbows as a frame against his chest to control the distance and keep him away, backing your hips away as necessary, and try to break the posture of his head and neck which will limit his ability to drive forward. Also try to keep your elbows pinched together which will limit his ability to drop underneath your frames.

Contrariwise, if you are the fighter trying to get the body lock you want to maintain good structure, collapse the opponent’s frames or drop under them, and choose the right moment to close the distance (such as when they are coming towards you rather than backing up). It also helps if you can threaten some of the other collar tie counters, because as your opponent attempts to counter those counters he may leave openings for the body lock.