Thai Style Checking vs Jin Ji Du Li

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So you've never seen this practice of labeling a technique to a specific style in the martial arts before.

Seeing a practice and agreeing with it are two very different things.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So you've never seen this practice of labeling a technique to a specific style in the martial arts before.

Seen it, yes. But it's a rather silly thing to do. Unless that art is absolutely the only one that ever does that technique.

 

[Oily Dragon]

So you've never seen this practice of labeling a technique to a specific style in the martial arts before.

There are just different types of clinch depending on the art, but again, if Muay Thai is the only Asian standup full contact art you know, it's a "Thai" clinch to you. But if you'd trained three arts with the same clinch stuff in it, you'd have a hard time calling it Thai. In Asian arts that allow basically all the standup strikes and clinching, throwing the nationality doesn't matter so much. A lot of these countries have the same arts, just different names.

As I am fond of saying, in China they just call it "food".

 

[Oily Dragon]

Seen it, yes. But it's a rather silly thing to do. Unless that art is absolutely the only one that ever does that technique.

I get where he is coming from. In UFC and MMA fan circles, it's often called a "Thai" clinch even when it's not, because of how well Muay Thai fighters did standup early on.

Some people still believe Muay Thai is the only valuable standup MMA complement. Which is weird considering the actual diversity out there.

Maybe it's more a matter of someone coming from a non resistance TMA into the world of full contact kickboxing. That's a big leap for many. I won't begrudge anyone loving Muay Thai, it's one of my favs.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I get where he is coming from. In UFC and MMA fan circles, it's often called a "Thai" clinch even when it's not, because of how well Muay Thai fighters did standup early on.

People commonly say "bo staff", even though bo means staff, and their use of "staff staff" is a boo boo.

When I was a stupid kid, my mother said to me on more than one occasion, "If everybody jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?"
Applies here.

 

[Damien]

All this talk of clinching and knees sparked a thought. I wonder whether in some instances the foot pointed position of jin ji du li might represent a knee, whilst different things are happening with the hands. A block with the hands combined with a knee, just ends up being a block with a sub optimal leg position. Not sure how likely that is, as you get knees and grappling explicitly used in some of the same forms that apparent blocks appear, but possible.

Toes down when the kick comes from the front

What do you think the advantage is of toes down in a kick from the front? Besides keeping your foot out of the way so you don't get kicked right down the toes (ouch). I still feel like pulling the toes up would protect the leg more as you tense the tibialis anterior by doing so.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Besides keeping your foot out of the way so you don't get kicked right down the toes (ouch).

Pretty much this.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are just different types of clinch depending on the art,

To be able to control your opponent's leading arm is a must in CMA clinch. The less free arm that your opponent has, the less counter he can do to you. The head lock will give your opponent only 1 free arm.

If you use underhook, you can control both of your opponent's arms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I still feel like pulling the toes up would protect the leg more

When you have toes

- up, you are ready for front kick to your opponent's chest with the ball of your foot.
- down, you are ready for spring kick to your opponent's groin/chin with the instep of your foot.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But a Nak Muay is not just going to get this clinch and then wait for the escape; it's immediate knees to the body & face + other techs if it were a real fight.

Here is a clip that

- A knee strikes B.
- B catches A's leg and takes A down.

https://i.postimg.cc/RC7BS10M/MT-knee-seize.gif

 

[drop bear]

don't know here you train Muay Thai then.

He is saying he also does clinch work in whatever system he does. So it is basically the same thing.

Which it probably isn't.

I am guessing this is like one of those karate has ground work deals. They do. But you don't go to a karate guy to learn it because they just are not as good at it.

 

[drop bear]

Here is an example.

First your bending elbow give your opponent a free control point. When your opponent locks your forearm against his chest, your arm has no control over him.

If your opponent locks your head with both of your arms inside, you can't see when your opponent attacks your legs.

Yeah. But you can feel it.

 

[drop bear]

All this talk of clinching and knees sparked a thought. I wonder whether in some instances the foot pointed position of jin ji du li might represent a knee, whilst different things are happening with the hands. A block with the hands combined with a knee, just ends up being a block with a sub optimal leg position. Not sure how likely that is, as you get knees and grappling explicitly used in some of the same forms that apparent blocks appear, but possible.



What do you think the advantage is of toes down in a kick from the front? Besides keeping your foot out of the way so you don't get kicked right down the toes (ouch). I still feel like pulling the toes up would protect the leg more as you tense the tibialis anterior by doing so.

Toes down is unnecessarily complicated. So you don't flex you shin as well. You risk getting shin kicked in the instep and you have to coordinate pointing the foot then un pointing it when you land.

Which is fine if you are checking super high. But just getting your foot up to check. Eventually you are going to mess that up.

So unless there is a super amazing reason for pointy toe I have missed. Don't do it.

 

[Oily Dragon]

He is saying he also does clinch work in whatever system he does. So it is basically the same thing.

Which it probably isn't.

I am guessing this is like one of those karate has ground work deals. They do. But you don't go to a karate guy to learn it because they just are not as good at it.

I find it weird when people make assumptions about who trains what, do you?

If you missed it, my JKD instructor was a Thai boxer. So when I say "clinch" you should take it seriously.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Toes down is unnecessarily complicated. So you don't flex you shin as well. You risk getting shin kicked in the instep and you have to coordinate pointing the foot then un pointing it when you land.

Which is fine if you are checking super high. But just getting your foot up to check. Eventually you are going to mess that up.

So unless there is a super amazing reason for pointy toe I have missed. Don't do it.

I take it you've never trained in Muay Thai or San Shou. I base that on your last three posts especially the goofy karate groundwork gag.

Toes down, don't do it? Seriously??? You have to be kidding me.

Feel free to educate me further on the mysteries of 8 Limb Boxing! One of my favorite subjects.

 

[drop bear]

I find it weird when people make assumptions about who trains what, do you?

If you missed it, my JKD instructor was a Thai boxer. So when I say "clinch" you should take it seriously.

Was he any good as a Thai boxer?

What non Thai clinchwork looks like.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Was he any good as a Thai boxer?

Thanks for asking. He was a pro champion, actually. I wish we'd had more time together, but it was not meant to be. But it got me started.

Muay Boran is something I've gone deep into. It's like Muay Thai, with more umami.

 

[drop bear]

Thanks for asking. He was a pro champion, actually. I wish we'd had more time together, but it was not meant to be. But it got me started.

Muay Boran is something I've gone deep into. It's like Muay Thai, with more umami.

Nice.

We have a couple of young Thai fighters competing out of our gym at the moment.

And we were recently training with a guy called Jay Tonkin who is ranked 16th I think. Which is pretty decent.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I thought it might help to explain a bit more where I am coming from. It's useful to survey just how big and widespread the Southeast Asia kickboxing family is, because like the OP said, there is a relationship between these arts as far apart as northern China to southern Vietnam.

Consider (and people often don't know this) Muay is not just a Thai word. It's a regional word for boxing, native to southeast Asia used in several countries and languages.

Muay Lao is its cousin from Laos. Pradal Serey from Cambodia. Silat all over the place.

Burmese boxing (Lethwei) is particularly brutal clinch fighting, because of head butts. They call it the "9th limb".

Malaysian Tomoi is basically Muay Thai's cousin, right down to pre-fight dancing.

Muay Thai and Tomoi: Blood Brothers

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Hokkien Kuntao, with its complex clinch system, spread across all of southeast Asia after absorbing practically every CMA I can think of, its best representation is in the Filipino and Chinese combat sports that include clinch fighting (Yaw-Yan, San Shou).

 

[jayoliver00]

Here is a clip that

- A knee strikes B.
- B catches A's leg and takes A down.

https://i.postimg.cc/RC7BS10M/MT-knee-seize.gif

That's completely different from the picture that you were replying to/posted, which was this:

https://www.martialtalk.com/attachments/mt_clinch_1-jpg.28176/

where a guy caught in the full plum (a dominant position for his OPP), both jaw line secured by forearms & posture broken to the point where he's about to eat skip knees to the face for days.

These 2 pics are not the same thing. The 2nd one, they're in a 50/50 clinch (a neutral position) & red only took a curved knee to the body, then caught => sweep. Nowhere near the same as an up knee to to the face while your head being pulled downward into the knee.