Teaching the gentle and meek students

jthomas1600

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I think it's impossible to teach most (if not all) SD techniques in TKD with out teaching them in context to real world uses. Some TKD techs are extremely violent, which of course is to be expected since it is a "martial" art after all. How do you teach these techs when the student has a very non violent nature?

Here's the situation that inspires this question: I'm watching my kids in class and they are practicing (with no partner) a move where you grab your attacker by the head/neck/shoulder area and bring his head down while driving your knee up. My 13 year old daughters technique needed a little help so one of the instructors went up and explained the move to her. They said "your pulling your attackers head down while smashing your knee into his face". My daughter got a perplexed (almost horrified) look on her face and said "why would I do that".

I don't want to change who my daughter is. I like her gentle spirit. I don't want to go overboard with scare tactics about kidnapping and rapes. Parents and instructors, what have you done to help kids become more aggressive and understand the importance of practicing these techs like you intend on causing bodily harm?
 

granfire

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lol, I chalk it up to the realization that this is a martial art, not ballet.

I think I know the technique you are talking about - the version I learned actually had the eye gouge in it....
I think I had a similar moment when my instructor explained a move to me, why I reached palm up for the mid section and the spear hand was also palm up...not like I am going to try it any time soon. :)

I don't think one needs to go overboard in the kidnap department. Frankly I think most kids are safe and those at risk would not harm the non custodial parent since the boogie man is often not the stranger.

maybe rent a few cool MA movies, Like the Karate kid series, I found '3 little Ninjas' amusing they actually had a training dummy that light up when they hit the right spots.

I suppose one thing you could tell her 'should you ever need it, you know how to do it well'
 

Manny

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It's dificult not every child or adult has the mind set to be a super ferusius and try to chop the wind pipe of a bad guy in a real self defense sitiuation.

Today kids feel that maiming a person is not correct, that's the way the parents and the sociocultural world say to them everytime. That's why, when I see the kids learning self defense techs I really shake my head, they don't have (not all but the vast majority) the mind set or attitude to perform the techs with the determination need it.

When I teach self defense to my young classmates I teach them in a strong way, my grabs/hugs are strong, my punches and kicks are fast, mi yelling is loud, my arm bars are hard... all this to the point to cause disconfort and some kind of surpirse (as in the streets), I don't need to break the wind pipe but surely I can perform the knife hand to the troat quickly and just stop the blow few milimiters from the target. I don't need to break the elbow to take down my partner but I won't deposit him on the floor in a charming way.

Yes, teaching a 8 years boy how to smash the wind pipe can be dangerous, there are some techs I just avoid to teach to the children but for example a knee to the groing, a kick to the knee or a slap to the hear can be very efective to send the message to the bully in his/her school don't you think.?

Manny
 

jks9199

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"Why would I do that?!" :eek:

To allow you to be a gentle and meek person otherwise.
 

ralphmcpherson

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My daughter is like this. She is very gifted when it comes to tkd but she just doesnt see it as 'fighting'. It has frustrated me at times because she has nice quick powerful kicks and punches but when she spars she just throws them out there with no real intent on connecting with the other person. For her it is more a case of lack of aggression rather than a lack of skill and most kids I see have the reverse problem where they can get angry easily but with their aggression any technique goes out the window. At her last grading I was padding up the coloured belts for sparring and I whispered in her ear that she should pretend the girl she was sparring hurt her cat (my daughter loves her cat, its like her best friend). Anyway, just as she was about to spar I looked at ther and winked and she looked the angriest Ive ecer seen her and she proceeded to just tear the other kid apart. Unfortunately, it was a short term thing and Ive struggled to get her that aggressive again. I guess that with age and maturity she will come to realise that what she is learning is not "ballet". Ive also realised that if they have the skills and train hard then if push ever comes to shove they will know exactly what to do and it should be instinctual.
 

StudentCarl

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Your daughter is in the right place for 3 reasons:

1. She is being acclimatized to physical contact. She is learning self-control, particularly of her emotions, such that if she is ever in a violent situation she is more likely to keep her head...especially if she gets hit first.

2. She is developing ability. Responses that aren't trained don't happen. The agility and martial techniques she is learning give her some confidence and tools.

3. Will is the decisive trait, one forged through character-building experience. You, her experiences, her innate nature, and her own beliefs will shape that as she grows.

It's good to remember that gentleness and meekness have a place in our world too, for sometimes those people are the peacemakers who can defuse explosive situations. Her confidence and strength of character are being developed in TKD too, and those are perhaps more essential than the ability to be violent. Sometimes it's the ability NOT to be violent that matters most.
 

Manny

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Some of the one steps I teach involves counters followed by grabing and sweeping or throwing and then if need it some kind of sumision, for example, blocking the punch using the knife hand and then grabing the arm performing an elbow to the jaw and then osostogari and ended with a puch to the face or just aply an arm bar. However another move I have is just to step out (45繙) of the punch and dolyo chagui to the midsection, followed by a knee kick to drop the bad guy and then perform a chop to the back of the head. With children only the dolyo chagui part can be used to drop the bully in the school.

Another easy example of an easy tech would be delayed sword of Kenpo Karate, pretty easy to learn.

Manny
 

Daniel Sullivan

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I think it's impossible to teach most (if not all) SD techniques in TKD with out teaching them in context to real world uses. Some TKD techs are extremely violent, which of course is to be expected since it is a "martial" art after all. How do you teach these techs when the student has a very non violent nature?

Here's the situation that inspires this question: I'm watching my kids in class and they are practicing (with no partner) a move where you grab your attacker by the head/neck/shoulder area and bring his head down while driving your knee up. My 13 year old daughters technique needed a little help so one of the instructors went up and explained the move to her. They said "your pulling your attackers head down while smashing your knee into his face". My daughter got a perplexed (almost horrified) look on her face and said "why would I do that".

I don't want to change who my daughter is. I like her gentle spirit. I don't want to go overboard with scare tactics about kidnapping and rapes. Parents and instructors, what have you done to help kids become more aggressive and understand the importance of practicing these techs like you intend on causing bodily harm?
Sounds like Taegeuk chiljang.

Ultimately, she is learning a set of physical skills. It is impossible to learn them correctly without knowing the context of their use.

One question; why does she take taekwondo? What is it that she enjoys about the class? Some people love taking a martial art for entirely non-martial reasons.

Daniel
 

granfire

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Some people love taking a martial art for entirely non-martial reasons.

Daniel

true, but then it's still Martial Arts, techniques developed to maim and kill and for one self - ultimately - go home afterward, if possible in one piece or close to.
 

aedrasteia

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Here's the situation that inspires this question: I'm watching my kids in class and they are practicing (with no partner) a move where you grab your attacker by the head/neck/shoulder area and bring his head down while driving your knee up. My 13 year old daughters technique needed a little help so one of the instructors went up and explained the move to her. They said "your pulling your attackers head down while smashing your knee into his face". My daughter got a perplexed (almost horrified) look on her face and said "why would I do that".
jt
wonderful to see your recognition of your daughter and your thoughtfulness about this situation. Can you fill in the rest of the experience?

Is this a youth class? adult? mixed? How long has your daughter been involved?
What followed your daughter's question? How did the teacher respond?
Did you learn anything from her afterward? Knowing this information would help alot.

I've taught many young (12-14) and older (15-17) teen classes,working from a curriculum specific to those age groups, really more toward the very different emotional/psych maturity levels among the groups (which connects to ages in general).

thanks A
 
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jthomas1600

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I take classes with my three kids. This daughter is really the only one with the hesitation to develop techniques that will seriously hurt someone. The other two kids and I started TKD about two years ago and she started soon after basically as a way to stay in shape during the soccer off season, so it's not surprising she's not combat minded. I've always told my kids that if you don't act like a victim you're less likely to become one. That's one of the things I've been reminding her of lately. I also told her today that being able to inflict serious damage with one technique can actually prevent a knock down drag out fight where both people get beat up.

Thanks for all the great responses.
 

StudentCarl

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...she started soon after basically as a way to stay in shape during the soccer off season, so it's not surprising she's not combat minded.

JT, soccer as I know it is a pretty combative sport as you get past the lowest levels. It does take some aggressiveness to battle for balls, position, and mentally to turn the tide of a game.

Perhaps it would help to differentiate between needlessly hurting someone and being aggressive/assertive like when playing soccer.

In concealed weapons training, we teach that you shoot to stop--you're not trying to kill, maim, etc., though that can happen. The mindset is that you are determined to stop someone from hurting you, whatever it takes to do that.

In soccer, you battle to control the ball and to score. In a violent situation, you battle to stop the attack and get out of the situation as safely as possible. Sometimes the safest way is to stop the other person with physical technique.

If your daughter sticks with soccer, I think there are many good mental and emotional parallels to martial training.

Carl
 

RobinTKD

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In soccer, you battle to control the ball and to score. In a violent situation, you battle to stop the attack and get out of the situation as safely as possible. Sometimes the safest way is to stop the other person with physical technique.

If your daughter sticks with soccer, I think there are many good mental and emotional parallels to martial training.

Carl

As i live in England and grew up playing football (as its rightfully called ;)), i can agree with most of this. I play five a side once a week, basically just a gathering of friends doing it to have fun, keep fit, catch up what's going on etc, and with five a side, the aggression is more pronounced because you need to keep the ball closer to your feet for longer, crosses and clearances tend not to work, and the ball must stay below shoulder height. I think tkd should help her skills on pitch, and vice versa.
 
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