Teach stances or blocks first?

Bruce7

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Skribs gave me a disagree on my op, so you would think I would be the last one to defend him, but we have been pretty hard on him. I think some of the things we said were a little out of line. It is hard being a young coach or teacher and we should be more supportive.
When we were 30, we were probably not very humble, some of us are still not humble.
 

Danny T

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Demonstrate, Short Explanation (at the level those in attendance can understand), Demonstrate again. Ask for questions (concerning the direct subject matter at hand), If no questions let them struggle unless someone is being dangerous. After a few minutes of struggling, Call for students attention...short explanation and demo of one or two of the mistakes (depending on the level of the class) without pointing someone out for it, Demonstrate the actions again properly a couple of times and let them struggle again. If/When the students do the actions better (does not have to be perfect just better) tell them with enthusiasm it is better. Emphasis the positive in a positive way. Don't say 'that's wrong' (even if it is) say something like "ok you are getting there, try doing this and you'll have this part of it" while making (1) correction. Expound the positive, Find something the student/s do correct and tell them. Then help them to be better.
 

Earl Weiss

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So why not teach them correctly from the beginning
It's your school do what you want but I don't think it takes that much more time to teach a proper technique.
Most people can process only a limited amount of information at one time. I want them to remember / process the most important details first. For instance if i teach a 7 year old an L stance I show them to make the feet in an "L" Position with heels aligned. Only after they get this will I dd the 70 / 30 weight distribution if they understand percentages and if not them I simply say more weigh on the back leg. After this I emphasize the knee bend with rear kneecap in line vertical with the toes. Then keep the rear hip aligned with inner knee joint. Then comes explanation of the length being 1.5 shoulders width from rear footsword to front foot toes. Then assumong the understand angles add the 15 degree inward angle of the foot.
If all those details were provided at the beginning I think there would be retention issues.
 

JowGaWolf

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Skribs gave me a disagree on my op, so you would think I would be the last one to defend him, but we have been pretty hard on him. I think some of the things we said were a little out of line. It is hard being a young coach or teacher and we should be more supportive.
When we were 30, we were probably not very humble, some of us are still not humble.
What's humble mean? lol.

It is hard being a young coach or teacher and we should be more supportive.
People are supportive here. But they can also be very blunt. The problem is trying to understand how someone views martial arts. For example, I have never taught martial arts with the goal or focus to teach discipline or respect. To me those are by products of quality training and that it's something one gains naturally through life experiences and honest training. It's not something that has to be taught as a lesson. Often times it's taught by parents and mentors in the form of a teachable moment. Most of this probably comes from me being involved with youth development as a profession for most of my life.

To me martial arts is like the military where soldiers are trained to kill and fight as first order. Other non-fighting aspects are gained through the training as a soldier that helps forge their will and the strength that they will need when the worst of times appears and you are called to kill. With martial arts students are trained to harm and fight as first order. Other non-fighting aspects are gained through the training as martial artists that helps forge their will and the strength that they will need when the worst of times appears and you are called to harm another human.

I used to think that emotion management in martial arts was so that rage wouldn't blind you and make you weak during the heat of fight. Then one day I thought, emotion management is what allows a martial arts practitioner to do horrible things like break a persons arm, legs, or poke the eyes. It what allows the martial artist to do the most damaging techniques if need be. If your emotions turn to the safety of your attacker then you won't be able to do what's needed to save yourself.

This is my perspective but the OP does not have the same perspective and as of such does not train with the same focus in mind. So when someone says
"Taekwondo is for defense, not attack" it causes people to reflect what martial arts means to them, it that will almost always clash.

An easier approach to the OP's question would have been. Simply to say "My focus is to use martial arts to teach discipline. With that in mind which is the better technique to start beginners with?" Now the focus is different. Which in my cause, when I taught teens of questionable behavior, The first thing I taught was a healthier mindset. The next thing I taught them was how to escape from danger. I never did get around to teaching them how to fight, because that wasn't the focus.

A little clarity and explaining goes a long way here.
 

JowGaWolf

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Most people can process only a limited amount of information at one time.
This is especially true with kung fu when the hands are doing 2 things at once and the feet are doing something on their own. The one thing that I've heard every kung fu student say is that it was mentally challenging, in just trying to get the brain to move the body the right way. We see the form / technique but when we ask the brain to do what the eyes saw, the brain says "Whatcha talkin about Willis?"

upload_2019-1-1_20-1-2.jpeg
 

WaterGal

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Kids don't sign up for these programs, parents do based on what they parent wants to child to get out of it.

Their parent signs them up, largely based on whether or not it looked like their kid was having fun during the trial lesson(s).
 

Gerry Seymour

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This is the point though isn't it, a reasonable stance not 'no stance instruction until you've learnt to punch'. We aren't talking about piling on details but teaching a proper stance for punching along with the punching, it can be polished up afterwards, you cannot teach a effective punch without having a correct stance.
I think some folks use the terms differently, Tez. I don't think of "stance" when I tell someone to step into (wait for it) a fighting stance. It's clearly a stance - I even used that exact word (and do when teaching it). But when I teach "stances", it's more exact. Something about how I was taught, how the term was used over the years, makes that nonsense sentence make sense to me.

So, I don't teach stances early on. I just help them get proper balance and weight distribution for the task. Later, I teach the specific stances as I hit a topic/technique where they are particularly useful - usually where their advantages and disadvantages become easier to experience.

Clearly, what I'm teaching when I say I'm not teaching "stances" is still the basics of stances. I'm helping them get their stance right, but it's a different thing to me, somehow.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I wish I would have learned the value and use of it in my 20's. It was one of the few things I had to learn on my own. Regretfully most instructors regardless of level know how to use the stance. The only reason I learned is because it was something I was actually using and learning how to use during sparring. Then I began to see what it was doing, how it was affecting my opponent, and how certain things are easier at that level.

The other thing I noticed was that certain techniques that I was having problems with actually applying became easier to do at that level. I've been working on higher stance techniques as well simply because I don't know when my body won't be able to do the lower stances like that. Unfortunately everyone gets old and worn out if that person is lucky
I used to use deeper stances in some techniques than most of my partners. I can't tell if I'm learning to use tall stances better now, or simply understand the techniques well enough to get away with the taller stances. I really miss some of the stuff I used to do, and I think I'd have had fun learning to use that fighting stance you have.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I think a lot depends on what you're teaching, whether you're in charge of the teaching, where you're teaching and who you're teaching. The "who" is big for me as I do not teach everyone the same way. People learn differently for so many reasons it could have it's own thread.

As you become experienced you learn to read people that first second they set foot on the dojo floor. Before that if you were the one who signed them up.

My beginners class was an hour. Thy were usually in the class for a month or two, then put in the back of the advanced class. Those first few months in the advanced class everyone helped and encouraged them. Beginners were allowed and encouraged to take their own breaks and go sit against the wall and stretch because the pace of the advanced class was pretty much all out. My biggest goal at this point was to make them feel at home. Seemed to work pretty well.
I've used a similar approach, but without separate classes (since I only ever taught a maximum of 3 days a week). My beginner's curriculum ("foundation") takes about 10 classes to cover (longer if they are struggling with some basic bit) before they could join in the main class. I like the approach, and could see myself having a beginner's class if I had enough students and time for it. In fact, I'd pitched a beginner's class (with an entirely different concept than what I came up with later) at my instructor's school, for a day when no classes were offered.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Sure on an individual basis one or two students may not get it and you need to break it down even more. But to teach it to everyone like that on purpose makes no sense to me.
It can be the starting point, simply adding on what they seem to be able to handle. It's just the other side of starting with the idea of giving them the full information, and simplifying it down if they struggle. Every student is different, and sometimes it's easier - and just as effective - to start from the lowest common denominator and work up. Sometimes it isn't.
 

Gerry Seymour

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When I was a teaching assistant in UT Austin computer science graduate school, one day my professor asked me to teach Knuth assemble language MIX. That was the 1st year that Knuth published his MIX. I told him that I didn't know MIX (I have learned CDC 6600 assemble language and IBM 360 assemble language). The professor said, "Nobody in our graduate school knows it. You just have to study it and teach it at the same time."

IMO, the term "qualification" is a relative term. It's not an absolute term. Even if you know something a bit earlier that others, and as long as you know how to help others, you are qualified.
She's talking about the difference between knowledge of the topic and skill at teaching. I can often learn something new to help a client out, and immediately teach it to some of their staff. Other folks who know the same thing much better sometimes cannot teach it as well, because they lack the skill for teaching.
 

Gerry Seymour

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So why not teach them correctly from the beginning and understand that they wont do it perfectly at first but at least they know what they are supposed to be doing
I missed something I wanted to say about this earlier. Teaching them to do it correctly doesn't have to mean teaching them all of the details. I can teach a good fighting stance without having to get into most of the details. I can teach a working approximation of a hanmi (half-stance or L-stance) without having to get into the details. I can also teach both of those from the beginning, providing them the details as I understand them. Often, they over-focus on something I said, rather than getting the stance right. With many students (certainly not all) I can get as good or better results by demonstrating it perfectly (because I never make a mistake! :shifty:) and letting them build a working approximation, as compared to giving them full instruction and having to correct what they've misunderstood.
 
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skribs

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Skribs gave me a disagree on my op, so you would think I would be the last one to defend him, but we have been pretty hard on him. I think some of the things we said were a little out of line. It is hard being a young coach or teacher and we should be more supportive.
When we were 30, we were probably not very humble, some of us are still not humble.

That's because I disagreed with what you posted in that OP. Feel free to agree or disagree with me based on the merits of my posts. I've gotten plenty of disagrees before, and I don't care as long as the person discusses it. That's what I'm really here for - the discussion.
 

Dirty Dog

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That's because I disagreed with what you posted in that OP. Feel free to agree or disagree with me based on the merits of my posts. I've gotten plenty of disagrees before, and I don't care as long as the person discusses it. That's what I'm really here for - the discussion.

Just so we're clear, there's no obligation to discuss a disagree (or agree, or like, or whatever). You can disagree with something even if you don't think it's worth discussing.

On topic, I still don't see how you can teach stances or blocks in isolation.
 
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Bruce7

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That's because I disagreed with what you posted in that OP. Feel free to agree or disagree with me based on the merits of my posts. I've gotten plenty of disagrees before, and I don't care as long as the person discusses it. That's what I'm really here for - the discussion.

You are right, all TDK Black Belts don't have to know who Jhoon Goo Rhee and Jack Hwang (Hwang Sae Jin) was.
I should not have been surprised and a little unhappy about it.
 
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skribs

skribs

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Just so we're clear, there's no obligation to discuss a disagree (or agree, or like, or whatever). You can disagree with something even if you don't think it's worth discussing.

On topic, I still don't see how you can teach stances or blocks in isolation.

That was my personal opinion on the subject.

It's easy to teach them in isolation. However, even if teaching them together, do you look at both of them in depth? Or do you focus on teaching the block sometimes and the stance other times?

When I first started at my school, I also went online and watched Ginger Ninja Trickster's tutorials on YouTube. The guy could spend 8 minutes talking about a front kick - and his information is well-edited and succinctly delivered. He goes over every detail of the kick, applications for the kick, variations of the kick, and troubleshooting if you're doing the kick wrong. If we took that approach and went into every detail of every technique, we could get through front kick, roundhouse kick, and side kick in about 25 minutes, and that's not even giving students enough time to practice!

So how much time do you devote to stances or blocks? Is the stance just kind of there, and you teach the block? Or is the block just kind of putting your arm up, and you teach the stance? Or do you spend twice the time and teach both at the same time?
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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That was my personal opinion on the subject.

It's easy to teach them in isolation. However, even if teaching them together, do you look at both of them in depth? Or do you focus on teaching the block sometimes and the stance other times?

When I first started at my school, I also went online and watched Ginger Ninja Trickster's tutorials on YouTube. The guy could spend 8 minutes talking about a front kick - and his information is well-edited and succinctly delivered. He goes over every detail of the kick, applications for the kick, variations of the kick, and troubleshooting if you're doing the kick wrong. If we took that approach and went into every detail of every technique, we could get through front kick, roundhouse kick, and side kick in about 25 minutes, and that's not even giving students enough time to practice!

So how much time do you devote to stances or blocks? Is the stance just kind of there, and you teach the block? Or is the block just kind of putting your arm up, and you teach the stance? Or do you spend twice the time and teach both at the same time?
Enitrely a deviation from the post, but if you go on youtube and search sensei ando (ando meriza), he has a lot of cool instructional videos. They may not help you with your own kicks and techniques (or they may, who knows), but they may give you some new ideas of how to help your students with them.
 

Dirty Dog

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That was my personal opinion on the subject.

It's easy to teach them in isolation. However, even if teaching them together, do you look at both of them in depth? Or do you focus on teaching the block sometimes and the stance other times?

When I first started at my school, I also went online and watched Ginger Ninja Trickster's tutorials on YouTube. The guy could spend 8 minutes talking about a front kick - and his information is well-edited and succinctly delivered. He goes over every detail of the kick, applications for the kick, variations of the kick, and troubleshooting if you're doing the kick wrong. If we took that approach and went into every detail of every technique, we could get through front kick, roundhouse kick, and side kick in about 25 minutes, and that's not even giving students enough time to practice!

So how much time do you devote to stances or blocks? Is the stance just kind of there, and you teach the block? Or is the block just kind of putting your arm up, and you teach the stance? Or do you spend twice the time and teach both at the same time?

You teach them all together. Let the student get things roughly right, and then refine it.

As to the 25 minute thing... no... you can't. Because the average student isn't going to remember more than a fraction of that information. Information overload isn't helpful. Yes, some can handle more detail at a time than others. But I've always been an advocate of individualizing training as much as possible. But, in general, you get things roughly correct, and then refine it. Especially if you're working with children.

Kick Progress.jpg
 

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