Target Focus Training

[Daniel Sullivan]

This came up as an ad presented as a 'quiz' on another MA site where I post. http://www.targetfocustraining.com/

I took the quiz just for the heck of it. The quiz was multiple choice and I chose the answers that made sense to me, kind of expecting his answers to be very different. When I clicked to see what the 'correct answers' were, I was surprised to see that they were the ones that made the most sense (of the ones presented) and not the ones that looked like marketing verbage.

Anyway, is anyone familiar with this group/individual?

Daniel

 

[K-man]

I have been a subscriber to their newsletter for years but haven't had the opportunity to train with them. Their focus is self defence and it makes a lot of sense. However their approach is very different to those who train a sport based MA. I like it because we have eliminated the sport aspect of our training.

 

[sgtmac_46]

As I understand it Tim Larkin started out with Jerry Peterson and 'SCARS', of which it would appear much of the 'TFT' material is derivative of......which is itself derivative of Kung Foo San Soo.

Larkin seems less over the top, though, and if I were going to train with one of them it would be Larkin, if it were my cup of tea.

I've got some old VHS 'SCARS' videos and books collected dust in my attic, so it's been years since i've even seen there material, but it is of similar sort.

At least Larkin doesn't quite appear to be claiming he can turn you in to an unbeatable killing machine in 12 easy steps like Peterson's 'SCARS' advertising.

Peterson lost me at autokinematics......ahuh.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Here's the martial art it all came from in the first place. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWILkYGOYOU&feature=player_embedded#!

 

[K-man]

Re-reading my post I noticed a significant error. What I call self defence they prefer to call 'hurting the attacker'. An example from the website puts it into perspective. I agree with the sentiment although I am reluctant to embrace their terminology.

The person “defending” themselves is always too far away and busy reacting to what the other guy is doing.

The person who just wants to “hurt the man” closes that distance, disregards the other guy’s personal space and makes him react.

And the difference is as simple as word choice.

Words dictate how we think… and how we think directly dictates how we move.

Don’t “defend yourself” — hurt the man.
Don’t train for “self-defense” — practice using violence as a survival tool.
Leave self-defense where it’s best suited, in the realm of ideas, where it bookends the act of violence as the moral imperative to not use force needlessly and for legal consideration after the fact.

…For everything else — to describe the needs of violence or training for it — it’s vague, imprecise, and harmful.

That’s why I don’t do, practice or teach “self-defense.”

I’ve spent my career figuring out why the winners win in violence and how to teach anyone who’ll listen how to do what they do.

In hand-to-hand violence… defense gets you killed.

…Hurting people gets you home.

The difference starts with mere words.


–Chris Ranck-Buhr

 

[sgtmac_46]

Re-reading my post I noticed a significant error. What I call self defence they prefer to call 'hurting the attacker'. An example from the website puts it into perspective. I agree with the sentiment although I am reluctant to embrace their terminology.

Maybe I can shed some light on their philosophy........keep in mind I don't necessarily adhere to it, but I do know the source of their argument.

TFT, like SCARS before it, is partially built around the concept of 'Neural-Linguistic Programming'......they didn't invent NLP, it's part and parcel of a whole movement of self-help gurus like Tony Robbins.........part of NLP is the idea that words have power, and they way we decide to use words can effect our actions.

For example, in the TFT/SCARS context, they believe that words like 'Self-Defense' put individuals at a disadvantage, as, according to their logic, they create a reactive mindset........so they substitute those terms with far more offensive minded words like 'hurting the attacker'.......that are used with the idea that they will teach the student not to be afraid to be offensive and aggressive.


Do I buy in to that? I suppose to some extent it may effect the mindset......not sure how far I buy NLP, though........but TFT/SCARS incorperate NLP concepts as part of their curriculum.

I think I have less of a problem with the NLP concepts than I do the 'Autokinematics' concepts, which are part and parcel of their techniques.........which translates in to the idea that if you strike someone in a certain spot, their body will react in a predictable fashion, allowing you to chain together strikes based on striking those spots.

Now, certainly, if you hit someone in the groin, you will get a somewhat predictable response.........but taking that concept too far seems a recipe for creating some false expectations, with potentially devastating consequences........but since TFT/SCARS is 'too deadly' to spar with, I guess we'll never see what actually happens when someone doesn't respond as expected.

 

[jks9199]

I think I have less of a problem with the NLP concepts than I do the 'Autokinematics' concepts, which are part and parcel of their techniques.........which translates in to the idea that if you strike someone in a certain spot, their body will react in a predictable fashion, allowing you to chain together strikes based on striking those spots.

Now, certainly, if you hit someone in the groin, you will get a somewhat predictable response.........but taking that concept too far seems a recipe for creating some false expectations, with potentially devastating consequences........but since TFT/SCARS is 'too deadly' to spar with, I guess we'll never see what actually happens when someone doesn't respond as expected.

Except you can't rely on a response. I've kicked people in the groin, and they've crumpled into a fetal position. I've been kicked in the groin and curled over... But I've also kicked people in the groin and had no effect. And been kicked and not felt it...

There are so very few guaranteed, automatic responses when we look at people responding to pain or strikes. Sure, put 'em in a gooseneck wrist lock, and most rise up to relieve the pressure. Except for that guy who twists or turns...

 

[Josh Oakley]

Here's the martial art it all came from in the first place. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWILkYGOYOU&feature=player_embedded#!

Ah, Paul Schroeder. I miss training under that guy. Too bad he's in El Paso.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Except you can't rely on a response. I've kicked people in the groin, and they've crumpled into a fetal position. I've been kicked in the groin and curled over... But I've also kicked people in the groin and had no effect. And been kicked and not felt it...

There are so very few guaranteed, automatic responses when we look at people responding to pain or strikes. Sure, put 'em in a gooseneck wrist lock, and most rise up to relieve the pressure. Except for that guy who twists or turns...

My point exactly!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Larkin seems less over the top, though, and if I were going to train with one of them it would be Larkin, if it were my cup of tea.
.....

At least Larkin doesn't quite appear to be claiming he can turn you in to an unbeatable killing machine in 12 easy steps like Peterson's 'SCARS' advertising.

That was my impression. It was the first one of these sorts of ads that I have seen that didn't seem to be making that claim.

Daniel

 

[sgtmac_46]

That was my impression. It was the first one of these sorts of ads that I have seen that didn't seem to be making that claim.

Daniel

I've been a collector of various training material over the last 25 years, and have collected a fairly extensive library of training books, videos, etc.......years ago I was curious as to what the hype was about, and decided to purchase a set of 'SCARS' tapes/training manual......

......I found them to be less than advertised, though not entirely without merit. I had a bit of trouble buying entirely in to some of the concepts. The notion that one can reliably and predictably set up a series strikes by hitting targets in precise order seemed a bit 'pseudo-scientific' to me........even the name was a little too pseudoscientific.....'Autokinematics'.

Even worse than the Autokinematics, which could be done to some extent, though reliably with all opponents is questionable, is when he started saying you had HAD to make the proper noise while striking in order to hit properly! It was clear that 'SCARS' was developed from a traditional martial art (Sang Soo) and then all the terms from Sang Soo, like making noise to focus your Chi, or some such, was then couched in 'Scientific Sounding' terms to make it 'Scientificky'.

But, again, the material wasn't entirely without merit, there were plenty of strikes and techniques that would certainly be effective if properly applied.......but I felt it was eclipsed by the over-the-top hype...........even a little 'Cultish', if you know what I mean.


TFT seems a little more reasonable and less driven by colossal ego.

 

[Chap82]

Hi All,

Browsing the web and found this discussion and wanted to add my 2 cents on the topic of how TFT views "Autokinematics" I'll call it spinal reflexes from now on

So the thing is everyone sees what TFT does and they say yeah I understand that and that makes sense and then they get to the spinal reflexes part and they make that the main focus for their argument and by doing this they miss the whole point of what TFT is about. TFT is about "Injury" pure and simple, it's not about tapping the guy in such a way to get a spinal reflex and then stepping in again to get another and another, or anything like that.

So where do the reflexes come into play? The reflexes are a way to gauge whether or not you were successful in what you just did, for example I step in and claw the guy to his eyes but I don't get the reaction I was looking for ie. the turning of the head, the hands coming up to cover the eyes etc. then I know I probably just scratched some guy's eyebrows and I can see that immediately and know that I did not get my injury and I need to keep going till I do, there is also a tactical side to all this where for example I clawed him in the eyes and the head turns and the hands come up to protect the eyes; I knew the hands would come up ahead of time to I follow through with my strike to grab his hands as it was coming up so I can then break his wrist and slam his head into the planet if I wanted to, and to the guy across the street you would have looked remarkably fast but all you were doing was putting yourself in place for something you knew was already going to happen.

Now on another note, can there be injury without a spinal reflex? absolutely as a matter of fact I once saw a guy get stomped to the groin while he was on the ground and he did not budge, though the fact he was knocked unconscious prior didn't help much either but still you get my point but while you can have an injury without a spinal reflex, you can not have an injury without decrement in the body's normal functioning. So the long and short is, who cares if when I broke his leg he didn't do the perfect reaction I was looking for, he still has a broken leg and I'm about to put the boot leather to him.

So I hope the helps clarify that a bit

Chap

 

[sgtmac_46]

Hi All,

Browsing the web and found this discussion and wanted to add my 2 cents on the topic of how TFT views "Autokinematics" I'll call it spinal reflexes from now on

So the thing is everyone sees what TFT does and they say yeah I understand that and that makes sense and then they get to the spinal reflexes part and they make that the main focus for their argument and by doing this they miss the whole point of what TFT is about. TFT is about "Injury" pure and simple, it's not about tapping the guy in such a way to get a spinal reflex and then stepping in again to get another and another, or anything like that.

So where do the reflexes come into play? The reflexes are a way to gauge whether or not you were successful in what you just did, for example I step in and claw the guy to his eyes but I don't get the reaction I was looking for ie. the turning of the head, the hands coming up to cover the eyes etc. then I know I probably just scratched some guy's eyebrows and I can see that immediately and know that I did not get my injury and I need to keep going till I do, there is also a tactical side to all this where for example I clawed him in the eyes and the head turns and the hands come up to protect the eyes; I knew the hands would come up ahead of time to I follow through with my strike to grab his hands as it was coming up so I can then break his wrist and slam his head into the planet if I wanted to, and to the guy across the street you would have looked remarkably fast but all you were doing was putting yourself in place for something you knew was already going to happen.

Now on another note, can there be injury without a spinal reflex? absolutely as a matter of fact I once saw a guy get stomped to the groin while he was on the ground and he did not budge, though the fact he was knocked unconscious prior didn't help much either but still you get my point but while you can have an injury without a spinal reflex, you can not have an injury without decrement in the body's normal functioning. So the long and short is, who cares if when I broke his leg he didn't do the perfect reaction I was looking for, he still has a broken leg and I'm about to put the boot leather to him.

So I hope the helps clarify that a bit

Chap

I get the theory......the problem is in the actual application and it's predictability and replicability in a chaotic environment.......like many things it works great on a compliant training partner.

And not all strikes cause injury or incapacitation, as anticipated.

 

[Chap82]

Your right not all "Strikes" causes incapacitation, I mean look at a boxing match or even MMA these guys take one hell of a beating and they keep moving forward but ever notice what happens when someone gets a finger in the eye, or an "unintended" kick to the groin? what happens then? the ref steps in and stops everything. What does that mean? it means the human body can take a lot of non specific trauma ie. the fist bouncing off the skull etc. but once someone does something outside what the rules allow we see everything change in what was going on and that should also deal with part of your question about if you can get this stuff done in a chaotic situation because injury takes the chaos out of violence. Once you get into that throat with everything you have you'll see how everything gets really simple after that.

On the topic of "yeah I got hit in the groin once and I kept on going" I say this; The foot may have gone between the leg and even up to the groin area in that up-sided down V area and it may have even touched the genitalia but that is very different from having ruptured testicles where you now have internal bleeding in the testicles. And you rarely get that kind of a result from unintentionally kicking someone in the groin, you only get that by stepping in deep with your entire mass with the intention of crushing the testicles between your Mass and his pelvis. Now if you tell me that thats happened to you in a competition once and you went on to win the gold then we can argue about predictability of getting a groin reaction every time. So while in the heat of the moment I may not always get my target I do know that WHEN I do connect, there will be no ambiguity.

Now the ultimate question. "Ok I agree if you do get to punch me in my throat, I admit I'll be down for a while, But I would never let you get that close to me"
To that I ask this question: how does the serial killer get close enough to do it over and over again? or how does the guy in prison with 12 notches under his belt get in on his victims? Think up every possible answer where the guy succeeds in violence and that would give you an idea of how we train, "I **** you not" While everyone looks at videos of people getting beat down and look at the guy on the ground and try to figure out what he did wrong, we look at the guy who gets to walk away, the one that did the "beat down" and we say to ourselves "ok, how can we do what he did and how can we improve on it".

A picture is worth a thousand words so I'll show you how we "Get in" on someone and also how everyone else always focuses on the guy on the ground.

Chap

 

[sgtmac_46]

Your right not all "Strikes" causes incapacitation, I mean look at a boxing match or even MMA these guys take one hell of a beating and they keep moving forward but ever notice what happens when someone gets a finger in the eye, or an "unintended" kick to the groin? what happens then? the ref steps in and stops everything. What does that mean? it means the human body can take a lot of non specific trauma ie. the fist bouncing off the skull etc. but once someone does something outside what the rules allow we see everything change in what was going on and that should also deal with part of your question about if you can get this stuff done in a chaotic situation because injury takes the chaos out of violence. Once you get into that throat with everything you have you'll see how everything gets really simple after that.

On the topic of "yeah I got hit in the groin once and I kept on going" I say this; The foot may have gone between the leg and even up to the groin area in that up-sided down V area and it may have even touched the genitalia but that is very different from having ruptured testicles where you now have internal bleeding in the testicles. And you rarely get that kind of a result from unintentionally kicking someone in the groin, you only get that by stepping in deep with your entire mass with the intention of crushing the testicles between your Mass and his pelvis. Now if you tell me that thats happened to you in a competition once and you went on to win the gold then we can argue about predictability of getting a groin reaction every time. So while in the heat of the moment I may not always get my target I do know that WHEN I do connect, there will be no ambiguity.

Now the ultimate question. "Ok I agree if you do get to punch me in my throat, I admit I'll be down for a while, But I would never let you get that close to me"
To that I ask this question: how does the serial killer get close enough to do it over and over again? or how does the guy in prison with 12 notches under his belt get in on his victims? Think up every possible answer where the guy succeeds in violence and that would give you an idea of how we train, "I **** you not" While everyone looks at videos of people getting beat down and look at the guy on the ground and try to figure out what he did wrong, we look at the guy who gets to walk away, the one that did the "beat down" and we say to ourselves "ok, how can we do what he did and how can we improve on it".

A picture is worth a thousand words so I'll show you how we "Get in" on someone and also how everyone else always focuses on the guy on the ground.

Chap

Well, actually, not everyone else focuses on the guy on the ground......there are quite a few of us who focus on speed, surprise and violence of action.......pre-emptive attack is not a new invention.


However, here's a fundamental problem with assuming specific response.......the aforementioned prison situation illustrates this quite well.......adrenaline has a funny effect on responses that are quite predictable when dealing with cooperative training partners......that is, pain, and even dysfunction, are temporarily by-passed.......multiple examples exist of prison fights where the combatants receive multiple stab wounds, while returning in kind without awareness of injury.

In general, we find evidence of injuries that SHOULD have left someone on the ground completely incapacitated, brushed off and ignored.

The general mindset illustrated in TFT, certainly, is appropriate to the situation, i.e. that aggression will save you where caution and defense will not......but, again, these are nothing new............at it's root I question the ability to assuming a specific technique will generate dysfunction or a predictable response........but, that falls short of dismissing it entirely.

 

[Chap82]

I thought I had clarified where the spinal reflexes fit into our training but I guess I'll have to try harder.
Hitting the guy and seeing the reflex you expected to see is a great thing to have had happen in a violent encounter as noted above it's a great feedback mechanism which allows me to gauge my progress in what I'm doing to the man, and it can help me tactically but thats all it is, I don't wait to see it or base my next move on it,I'm tearing into the man until he stops moving so if I hit him once I don't stand there and say wow that was a nice groin reaction, no I'm already looking for my next injury and if on my way there the guy doubles over and goes fetal and my punch to the back of the neck I was going for hits nothing but air I'm ok with that because now he's on the ground and I'm about to keep working him over On the flip side of that if I hit him in the groin and nothing happened it still had no effect on my flow because I'm still looking for my next injury and then the next one until he is no longer functional.

Effects of fear and adrenaline: Some of the effects you can experience during a fear induced adrenaline response are Visual Clarity, Slow motion in time, Temporary paralysis, Sense of pain shuts down so that tissue wounds do not hurt, Rapid Coagulation of the blood and some others that are not pertinent to this discussion which is why you see prison footage of a guy with slashes and cuts all over his body that would make everyone watching loose thier appetite and still go on to kill his attackers and officers being shot in the eye and chest with the bullet nicking thier heart and still going on to persuse and kill thier attackers. So the body can do some amazing things when it's trying to survive but non of those effects I listed above gives you the power of invulnerability.

When I punch him with a knife in his liver or heart repeatedly like in the vid above its to put enough holes in it that he bleeds out way faster than his body can stop the bleeding now while he may not even know he's being stabbed, he may think I'm punching him and he may not even feel pain, that has nothing to do with the fact that the body needs to have a specific amount of blood in it for normal functioning and when I open up his liver,and aorta he's going to be pumping loads of blood out of his system with every heart beat which is much different from being cut and slashed across the face, chest and back, But if I stop after one stab I'll be the one on the ground. When I crush the nerves on the inside of his legs he may not feel pain but then again I'm not interested in causing him pain when I slam into the inside of his legs, I'm concerned with taking out the motor nerves that gives him the ability to control his legs so now I'm fighting a man with one leg and creating new nerve paths is not an effect of adrenaline, so when he goes to take a step he wont have a leg to stand on.When I tear his eye out of his skull he may not feel pain but he can't see anymore and seeing through an eye that is not there is not an effect of adrenaline, when I rupture his ear drum he may not feel pain but a ruptured ear drum comes with some other symptoms other than pain, like loss of balance,vertigo and all the other effects that go along with vertigo so that just makes my job easier in putting him down thats what every injury gets me, one stop closer to making him non functional.So you'll notice in non of my posts above I spoke about or even used the word pain because while pain may be a symptom of injury,injury is something much different and far worst and with injury you ALWAYS get a decrement in the body's normal functioning.

notice how when it happened there was no pain or even a spinal reflex but also noticed how non of that made of difference

 

[sgtmac_46]

I thought I had clarified where the spinal reflexes fit into our training but I guess I'll have to try harder.
Hitting the guy and seeing the reflex you expected to see is a great thing to have had happen in a violent encounter as noted above it's a great feedback mechanism which allows me to gauge my progress in what I'm doing to the man, and it can help me tactically but thats all it is, I don't wait to see it or base my next move on it,I'm tearing into the man until he stops moving so if I hit him once I don't stand there and say wow that was a nice groin reaction, no I'm already looking for my next injury and if on my way there the guy doubles over and goes fetal and my punch to the back of the neck I was going for hits nothing but air I'm ok with that because now he's on the ground and I'm about to keep working him over On the flip side of that if I hit him in the groin and nothing happened it still had no effect on my flow because I'm still looking for my next injury and then the next one until he is no longer functional.

Effects of fear and adrenaline: Some of the effects you can experience during a fear induced adrenaline response are Visual Clarity, Slow motion in time, Temporary paralysis, Sense of pain shuts down so that tissue wounds do not hurt, Rapid Coagulation of the blood and some others that are not pertinent to this discussion which is why you see prison footage of a guy with slashes and cuts all over his body that would make everyone watching loose thier appetite and still go on to kill his attackers and officers being shot in the eye and chest with the bullet nicking thier heart and still going on to persuse and kill thier attackers. So the body can do some amazing things when it's trying to survive but non of those effects I listed above gives you the power of invulnerability.

When I punch him with a knife in his liver or heart repeatedly like in the vid above its to put enough holes in it that he bleeds out way faster than his body can stop the bleeding now while he may not even know he's being stabbed, he may think I'm punching him and he may not even feel pain, that has nothing to do with the fact that the body needs to have a specific amount of blood in it for normal functioning and when I open up his liver,and aorta he's going to be pumping loads of blood out of his system with every heart beat which is much different from being cut and slashed across the face, chest and back, But if I stop after one stab I'll be the one on the ground. When I crush the nerves on the inside of his legs he may not feel pain but then again I'm not interested in causing him pain when I slam into the inside of his legs, I'm concerned with taking out the motor nerves that gives him the ability to control his legs so now I'm fighting a man with one leg and creating new nerve paths is not an effect of adrenaline, so when he goes to take a step he wont have a leg to stand on.When I tear his eye out of his skull he may not feel pain but he can't see anymore and seeing through an eye that is not there is not an effect of adrenaline, when I rupture his ear drum he may not feel pain but a ruptured ear drum comes with some other symptoms other than pain, like loss of balance,vertigo and all the other effects that go along with vertigo so that just makes my job easier in putting him down thats what every injury gets me, one stop closer to making him non functional.So you'll notice in non of my posts above I spoke about or even used the word pain because while pain may be a symptom of injury,injury is something much different and far worst and with injury you ALWAYS get a decrement in the body's normal functioning.

notice how when it happened there was no pain or even a spinal reflex but also noticed how non of that made of difference

See, what you describe is dysfunction.......what I fail to get, however, is how it's uniquely to the advantage of TFT/SCARS........which is the topic. Explain how what you said above, connects specifically to the subject.

 

[Chap82]

Ok your going to have to be a bit more specific as to what your talking about because I mentioned a lot of things

 

[sgtmac_46]

Ok your going to have to be a bit more specific as to what your talking about because I mentioned a lot of things

Sure......what makes TFT/SCARS so special in the department of creating dysfunction on the part of an opponent?

 

[Chap82]

Sure......what makes TFT/SCARS so special in the department of creating dysfunction on the part of an opponent?

Hmmmm Lets see.... well the god honest truth to this question is "absolutely nothing". And I know that answer may not satisfy your question the way you wanted it but it's the truth, and thats because the principles that TFT teaches have been around since the dawn of time, you see it at work every night on your evening news you read about it in the papers on a daily basis in fact there are so many people that know how to do this stuff effectively that we don't even have enough room to house them and you guessed it, I'm talking about the men and women in our prisons.
but if I were to throw out something that may set TFT apart from other systems I guess it would be the way in which they can put the information across to someone who may have never had any other self defense training or may be considered weak or out of shape you name it, TFT is able to take these people from that point to being able to change the tables on someone trying to do them serious harm or at least put them on a even playing field. And they are able to get it done in mere hours.
Apart from that while we do strike in different ways to every other system I've ever been exposed to and every other system that I've ever heard about, a punch to the throat is still a punch to the throat a thumb in the eye is still a thumb in the eye, no matter what style or system you do so thats nothing new. So to wrap all that up in a small box the answer is the way the information is put across to allow every to be able to walk away with the ability to come out the other end of a violent conflict the winner.

Chap