Tai Chi as a martial art?

[opr1945112 22]

Sometimes what is available is a limitation. Until 2-3 years ago I was very ignorant about Martial Arts, believing there was only Karate and other styles were basically the same. I did not know Asian training for health even existed. I am becoming aware that I now know very little.

Google says there are 20 Martial Art school near me. Karate 3, Tae Kwon Do

 

[opr1945112 22]

Google says there are 20 Martial Art school near me. Karate 3, Tae Kwon Do 9, Jiu Jitsu 8. (I divided them into 3 categories for simplicity.) No Tai Chi or Qigong were listed. only 3 had daytime hours. all had evening hours.

When I started I had commitments 4 evenings so only the three offering day classes would work for my schedule.

So I ended up with Okinawan Karate at noon 3 days a week. the first 8 months worked for me. Both flexibility and balance improved significantly. Then my medical issues got in the way. Currently I can't bend very far off vertical, can't raise my legs very far up, and other limitations. So, I am currently on medical leave from Karate.

A week or so ago I discovered that the local senior center offers Tai Chi and qigong classes. Each for one hour per week. Actually, they offer three styles of Tai Chi each once a week.

I live in an are of about 200,000 population. Not rural but lacking the resources found in the larger cities I have lived in.

As soon as some of my pain goes away I plan to begin with the Tai Chi or Qigong or both. And possibly return to Karate.

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

(QUESTION: would taking all 3 classes of Tai Chi be a bad idea because they are different styles?)

Thanks all.

 

[Same Trick59 10]

(QUESTION: would taking all 3 classes of Tai Chi be a bad idea because they are different styles?)

Thanks all.

yes not a good idea.

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

Google says there are 20 Martial Art school near me. Karate 3, Tae Kwon Do 9, Jiu Jitsu 8. (I divided them into 3 categories for simplicity.) No Tai Chi or Qigong were listed. only 3 had daytime hours. all had evening hours.

When I started I had commitments 4 evenings so only the three offering day classes would work for my schedule.

So I ended up with Okinawan Karate at noon 3 days a week. the first 8 months worked for me. Both flexibility and balance improved significantly. Then my medical issues got in the way. Currently I can't bend very far off vertical, can't raise my legs very far up, and other limitations. So, I am currently on medical leave from Karate.

A week or so ago I discovered that the local senior center offers Tai Chi and qigong classes. Each for one hour per week. Actually, they offer three styles of Tai Chi each once a week.

I live in an are of about 200,000 population. Not rural but lacking the resources found in the larger cities I have lived in.

As soon as some of my pain goes away I plan to begin with the Tai Chi or Qigong or both. And possibly return to Karate.

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

(QUESTION: would taking all 3 classes of Tai Chi be a bad idea because they are different styles?)

Thanks all.

If i may ask, what are the 3 styles?

Also, what qigong do they teach?

And taking all 3 at the same time is not a good idea

 

[opr1945112 22]

Well, after spending time on line I discovered there are several places offering Tia Chi in my area. They just don't show up on google. They are offered in senior center, libraries, churches, home, etc. It appears no Dojo or brick and mortar locations with a sign them (maybe not dedicated to collecting money).

When I talked to the receptionist at the senior center she just said they were different. Ed teaches Sun Tia Chi and Qigong. He said he has been studying martial arts for 35 years. He is also a 5th dan in Uechi Ryu, that's how I met him. I had never heard of Qigong until I talked to him 2 weeks ago.

He said Professor Cheng Tao teaches Yang style. The following is from the Portage Library

Introduction to Tai Chi​

with Cheng Tao​

• Portage District Library
• *Austin/Sugarloaf & West Lake Rooms

Learn introductory information about Tai Chi through the Hainecke Institute from Western Michigan University
Registration Required
Cheng Tao will be here courtesy of the Asian Initiatives and Hainecke Institute at Western Michigan University to teach participants the basics of Tai Chi.

Presenter's Bio

Cheng Tao is a Professor of Education at Jiangsu Maritime Institute, Jiangsu, China, and a visiting professor at Haenicke Institute for Global Education, Western Michigan University, since June 2022.

Holding a master’s degree in Higher Education from Southeast University, Nanjing, China, Tao has been teaching for over 30 years, including Tai Chi. Tao has practiced Tai Chi for over 25 years and has taught different age groups. From the summer of 2022, Tao teaches various Tai Chi classes, including Basic Tai Chi, Intermediate Tai Chi, Tai Chi Sword, Tai Chi Fan, on WMU campuses and at local community centers, including regularly teaching a Seated Tai Chi class at the Portage Zhang’s Senior Center. Tao also leads various cultural workshops, including Kalamazoo’s Workout Wednesday, Encounter Tai Chi at Kalamazoo Public Library, Tai Chi demonstrations at Chenery Auditorium, Miller Auditorium, and Grand Rapid’s Art Prize. Tao’s classes are well-received and liked by students of all levels.

Tao bears genuine respect and care for his students. Over time, Tao received various organizational recognition, such as “The Most Well-Received Teacher Award” by Jiangsu Maritime Institute in June 2011, “Outstanding Teacher Award” by Jiangsu Maritime Institute in February 2014, “Excellent Teacher Award” at Jiangsu Maritime Institute in 2017, “Distinguished Visiting Professor Award” by Asian Initiatives, Western Michigan University in June 2023, and “Excellence in Teaching Award” by Portage Zhang Senior Center in June 2024.

I will see if I can look further into the style taught by the third instructor on Monday.


The more I learn the more I realize how little I know.

 

[opr1945112 22]

Okay, I found a whole world.

The 3d instructor of Tai Chi at the senior center is
Matú Étienne Kurzawa
Here is his facebook page Log into Facebook

I could not fine a style listed for him, but, perhaps someone else can.

Ed Sun Style
Qigong?

Prof Cheng Tao Yang style

Matú Étienne Kurzawa ?


The more I learn the more I realize how little I know.

 

[windwalker099114 145]

Okay, I found a whole world.

The 3d instructor of Tai Chi at the senior center is
Matú Étienne Kurzawa
Here is his facebook page Log into Facebook

I could not fine a style listed for him, but, perhaps someone else can.

Ed Sun Style
Qigong?

Prof Cheng Tao Yang style

Matú Étienne Kurzawa ?


The more I learn the more I realize how little I know.

What you’re asking for is essentially for others to make a value judgment about individual instructors. As I understand it, that’s generally not encouraged on this site — though I could be mistaken.

A more useful starting point might be clarifying what you are expecting and looking for. The goals you’ve described can be addressed through a number of different practices. It may be worth asking yourself what it is about Tai Chi, in particular, that’s drawing your interest.

 

[Kurwenal]

It’s great but this is just word games. Call it anything you want I guess. We all have our definitions of what exactly a martial art can be. My opinion is that it’s great but won’t prepare you for a real fight like mma or boxing match.

 

[opr1945112 22]

I have made the decision. I made it awhile back. I am going with Ed the man I met at the Dojo.

I mentioned the senior center offered three styles of Tia Chi. Someone asked what styles they were. I didn't know so I asked Ed. He told me the style he teaches and one of the two others. As I was looking for information on the styles I found some biographical data on two of them and posted it here. Just for people who might be curious.

Perhaps, some styles would fit me better than other styles. (I eliminated Kyokushin because I am an old, easily injured, short, fat guy with balance and flexibility issues) While styles have characteristics that allow them to serve some better than others. Personally, I believe the individual teachers are more important in determining which style applies to how suited it is for a individual student.

This can be a crap shoot for the student. How does the student figure out which teacher fits them best without knowing much about the teacher before making a decision? Is it practical to try 4 teachers for 6 months each then make the decision on who is the best fit after 2 years.

In the area of social relationships many people pick a partner who turn out to not be a good fit. But, inertia says it is better to be in a bad relationship than no relationship so they stay. It would be interesting how many students quit a martial art because it is a bad fit then try another? My guess is that most who quit Martial Arts because of a bad fit just quit altogether.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

I am not looking to become a fighter. I am just trying to get back movements that I could do 20 years ago. Primarily balance and flexibility. Some increase in strength would also be nice but most likely out of the question. ... I am an old, easily injured, short, fat guy with balance and flexibility issues)

Don't understand your logic here. If you are not interested in combat, then why do you even care about whether Taiji is a combat art or not?

 

[opr1945112 22]

Don't understand your logic here.

Yeah, my wife says that a lot. She also accuses me of man-splaining, I am guilty.

All my life whenever I saw anything about Tai Chi it always pictured slow motion movements. But, referred to Tai Chi as a martial art. And I could never figure it out. Especially if the video was of Karate, Judo, Tae Kwon do, etc. They were always fast when fighting. And then recently I was having a conversation with one of my sons and I recalled The experience I had with ice hockey years ago, see earlier post. So I posed the question about slow movements to learn self defense. So it was for academic/intellectual purposes only. One of my bosses once told me "I major in minutiae."

At one time I would have liked to train for self defense, but those days are long gone. Now, I'm hear for the fitness, trying to stave off deterioration of physical abilities. Balance and flexibility.

My wife will no longer go to museum with me. I like to read every sign and ask questions. A slow but educational process for me. I know lots of random useless things. She, on the other hand, proceeds at slow, but constant, pace. Rarely reads any of the signs.

I learned that what I have seen is only half the story. I spent 40 years as a college professor.

Thanks to all who helped my journey to enlightenment. It has gotten worse since I retireed.

The more I learn the more I realize how little I know.

 

[opr1945112 22]

Don't understand your logic here.

Fair enough. I don't understand the poem in your signature either.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

Fair enough. I don't understand the poem in your signature either.

I made an A grade in my English class when I was in college. My poem was read by the whole class. My English teacher really liked my poem.

When you

- were young, sometimes you pretend you are sad while you are not sad.
- are old, sometimes you feel sad, you just pretend the autumn has good chill.

 

[Appledog50 3]

This can be a crap shoot for the student. How does the student figure out which teacher fits them best without knowing much about the teacher before making a decision? Is it practical to try 4 teachers for 6 months each then make the decision on who is the best fit after 2 years.

In the area of social relationships many people pick a partner who turn out to not be a good fit. But, inertia says it is better to be in a bad relationship than no relationship so they stay. It would be interesting how many students quit a martial art because it is a bad fit then try another? My guess is that most who quit Martial Arts because of a bad fit just quit altogether.

That's why wu de, respect on your part and kindness and generosity on the teacher's part are so important.

It took me 4 years to find my first Sifu, unfortunately our time together was too short. Four years after that I found my Sifus, who were students of the same teacher as the first one. That's 8 years of searching. During this time I learned whatever I could form whomever I could. I even spent 3 or 4 hours a day, every day, following seniors groups in the park. They loved me, I was like their little pet. Some of them. Others tolerated me, I guess.

In the 20 years since I moved to China, I did not learn from any other Sifu although I have even been offered a position, on occasion. Because when you find someone real you have to follow them. But don't be surprised if it takes 8 to 10 years. I was only able to know what to look for until after that time.

You could always ask one of the resident tai chi masters here to teach you. If you could recognize them! But, these things take time. Take your time and slowly climb forward.

As for Tai Chi as a martial art. Today the best Tai Chi teachers, even in China and Taiwan, do not really teach Tai Chi as a martial art. But they do teach Tai Chi in an open-ended fashion. Until you find what you are looking for here's some free advice. If you want to practice Tai Chi as a martial art, just go do it. Just go practice it like a martial art if that is what you want to do. No one can stop you. But there is a caveat. Never forget you don't really know what that means. You might have a good idea -- some people are martial geniuses (like me, of course!) and know what is necessary to do. But most people don't know.

I just met a Chen style teacher here and went to his class. 15 people in a good (very good) outdoor location. However, they didn't teach Push Hands. They did teach with a little bit of contact. The teachers are part of a Chen Style cultural association. But they don't teach push hands and are not aware of anyone who does. This is how badly it's fallen; the public face of tai chi really isn't a martial art, and the only way to learn it properly is to seek out the man on the mountain. Your main problem in doing so is that the man on the mountain left for the mountains many years ago, and it seems no one knows exactly where he went. Upon hearing that, most people just give up.

If you think a master is "out there" you may be looking in the wrong place. Go learn what you can and then just go do it yourself. You may find you have an interesting problem. You want to practice Tai Chi as a martial art, but in fact, nobody else does, and you find yourself stuck. With no where to apply your strength.

 

[opr1945112 22]

After thinking about it for awhile. I want to make clear that currently I am looking for something for relief of my balance and flexibility issues. because of my health issues I had to take a pause in my Karate training. So I am looking into the possibility that something else less strenuous might be available to help. That lead me to look at Tai Chi for balance and flexibility. at no time was I looking at Tai Chi for self defense, but for the medical issues.

But as I researched Tai Chi I saw slow motion videos that were described as Tai Chi for self defense. So I asked my question about slow practice as preparation for self defense fast activity. This just out of curiosity not to learn self defense.

The two questions both related to Tai Chi but, one for health benefits and the for curiosity.

I apologize for my lack of clarity. But it has been enjoyable. Thanks

​

 

[Same Trick59 10]

Okay, I found a whole world.

The 3d instructor of Tai Chi at the senior center is
Matú Étienne Kurzawa
Here is his facebook page Log into Facebook

I could not fine a style listed for him, but, perhaps someone else can.

Ed Sun Style
Qigong?

Prof Cheng Tao Yang style

Matú Étienne Kurzawa ?


The more I learn the more I realize how little I know.

The Ed alternativ sounds good, he’s a 5th-Dan in Uechi-ryu and if he has a genuine training background in Sun-TJQ then go for it, you’ll not lose contact with the style of karate your already into and you’ll dwell into an interesting variant of TJQ.



Chen’s Tao, could also be a good option, but all the “teaching awards” display may be a “warning” for lack of something, but it may also be noting such at all, go there to have a look, it’s probably good.
It sounds somewhat that he’s teaching in the Li Deyin linage which not only teaches Yang TJQ but also Sun TJQ and Sun Xingyiquan, Li Deyin’s grandfather learned directly from Sun Lutang the founder of Sun-TJQ

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

The Ed alternativ sounds good, he’s a 5th-Dan in Uechi-ryu and if he has a genuine training background in Sun-TJQ then go for it, you’ll not lose contact with the style of karate your already into and you’ll dwell into an interesting variant of TJQ.

Agreed, if he is in fact traditional Sun style. Other wise you could end up with karate/taiji. Taiji forms with way too much force and stiffness. Effective, but not really taijiquan as a martial art. But then it depends on what your after

Chen’s Tao, could also be a good option, but all the “teaching awards” display may be a “warning” for lack of something, but it may also be noting such at all, go there to have a look, it’s probably good.

Agreed

It sounds somewhat that he’s teaching in the Li Deyin linage which not only teaches Yang TJQ but also Sun TJQ and Sun Xingyiquan, Li Deyin’s grandfather learned directly from Sun Lutang the founder of Sun-TJQ

Agreed, but Li Deyin, although I trained with a student of his, and wouldn’t mind training with Li Deyin, he does vary from the traditional family styles a bit. His Xingyiquan, I would also train if I had the opportunity, is done differently, he rearranged the 5 elements, still teaches them, but in a different order

 

[opr1945112 22]

So, I am amazed at how many classes in Tia Chi there are here. In senior centers, churches, etc. most of them offer 1 class for 1 hour per week. While most of Martial Arts facilities offer classes twice, and more commonly, three times a week for 90 minutes.. It may be related to the fact that the Martial Arts programs seem to be closer to a business with a dedicate facility rather than the Tia Chi programs which generally are offered in a general use location for 60 minutes.

Is 60 minutes per week adequate?

 

[Appledog50 3]

So, I am amazed at how many classes in Tia Chi there are here. In senior centers, churches, etc. most of them offer 1 class for 1 hour per week. While most of Martial Arts facilities offer classes twice, and more commonly, three times a week for 90 minutes.. It may be related to the fact that the Martial Arts programs seem to be closer to a business with a dedicate facility rather than the Tia Chi programs which generally are offered in a general use location for 60 minutes.

Is 60 minutes per week adequate?

Most of the people who do Tai Chi casually find a morning group and go every morning for an hour or an hour and a half. An hour is more than fine, it's more about the regularity of it. There are many good groups you could join.

These groups are of various quality. When I was in college I joined several Chinese senior's groups in the park every morning. After many years they started adopting me, like a pet. Like a long lost grandson. Some of them are extremely good. Just, not famous. Or maybe if you're lucky, famous in another life. You can learn from them.

And, sometimes, the unicorns drop by. I remember once after a good 3 or 4 years this old and kind of grungy guy suddenly appeared, smoking like a fish, but everyone in the park came to see his demo. He did some explanations about shifting your weight and left, and everyone was practicing it. It was hard to understand because I didn't speak chinese. But, having been there for a couple of years and getting used to following with my eyes, watching like a child who doesn't understand, I was able to pick something up from him. Going out to join those seniors groups in the morning, was one of the most rewarding social experiences I had, I think people give seniors groups in the park a bad rap, and there's surely a lot of crap that gets passed off as good tai chi but hey, give it a shot, you might find something you like.

 

[opr1945112 22]

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I did 2 karate classes and I was soaked like I dropped water! Unfortunately, I had to stop training because it was too risky for my bones and teeth