Tai Chi as a combat art?

[Taiji fan]

it is entirely possible I was taught wrong,

well Ken, you certainly arn't alone there, my first taiji teacher was a total fraud...he looked good...smooth movements (now of course I see that he was just a dancer), everyone was impressed......could talk taiji till the cows came home, even managed to be not a bad martial artist, but as far as Yang taiji goes....he was way off the mark.....sadly his kind are all too common, trying to find a teacher who actually knew what they were doing has taken me a number of years.

:asian:

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Taiji fan
...trying to find a teacher who actually knew what they were doing has taken me a number of years.

... that's why I never claim to be a master when I teach. Yes, I actually teach, under the authority of a "modern" from of Tai Chi, whcih I try to make moretraditional through research and practice. But I come right out and say "I've only been doing this about ten years, and my exprerience is mostly in kung fu -- I'm by no means a master".

That's why I only teach basic stuff to give people a taste, and then tell them to go to a real school. In fact, if there were enough quality teachers around here, I would gladly step down and take a course myself!

 

[East Winds]

Ken,

Congratulations. That is a very altruistic attitude to take and a mind set that is sadly lacking in Taijiquan today. I have met teachers similar to Taijifan's experience (and I'm sorry to say the Taoist Tai Chi Society come into that category):erg: Your students will probably learn more from you, having come from a MA background than they ever will learn from "The Taoists". Keep looking for a teacher. One will eventually turn up. And believe me, you will KNOW when that happens. It has taken me over 15 years to find "the real thing". The first time I met my current teacher (and yes, I teach as well), her very posture, attitude and bearing said it all!! (Incidentally I also trained with Moy Lin Shin, but it took a few years to realise what a fraud he was).

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by East Winds
...(Incidentally I also trained with Moy Lin Shin, but it took a few years to realise what a fraud he was)....

Is this Dr. Moy, founder of Taoist Tai Chi?????


BTW, thanks for not calling me a fraud, just because I teach the lower levels of something I have not mastered. There are times people take offense to this and get nasty. I beleive DISHONESTY is what makes a fraud, and I will never fall into that category if my life depends on it.

 

[Taiji fan]

I beleive DISHONESTY is what makes a fraud, and I will never fall into that category if my life depends on it.

you are absolutely right, and there is plenty of dishonesty in the taijiworld, tons of politics and totally unnecessary nastiness.

That's why I only teach basic stuff to give people a taste, and then tell them to go to a real school.

your honesty is refreshing....:asian:

if there were enough quality teachers around here, I would gladly step down and take a course myself!

:boing1: you and me both.......!

 

[East Winds]

Ken,

Its the first time I have heard him called Dr. Moy, but yes its the same guy. We were told that he had an impressive lineage, but no one from the Society would actually tell you what it was

Don't worry about "mastering" Taiji. Very few people have!!!!! I find that that is the constant challenge of Taiji. There is always something else, just around the corner, if only we could get to the ****** corner:erg:

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland

 

[Taiji fan]

taijiquan is basically an art for masochists...........:fart: :deadhorse

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by East Winds
Ken,

Its the first time I have heard him called Dr. Moy, but yes its the same guy. We were told that he had an impressive lineage, but no one from the Society would actually tell you what it was ...

I was told by one of his local school's teachers that he was a monk who fled the cultural revolution and took what notes and memories he could to "re-create" the Tai Chi he saw early in his life. From what I understood, there was no lineage at all.

 

[stickarts]

I saw a gentleman do a beautiful demonstration of a tai chi form many years ago and i thought it pretty, but not very dangerous looking....UNTIL i then watched his demonstration of how to apply the applications! some pretty nasty stuff!!
i dabbled in the tai chi awhile and i particularly liked the push hands which was fun, and also seemed key in learning how to really use Tai chi to off balance the opponent.

 

[East Winds]

Ken,

There were so many myths and half truths about this guy that in the end it was difficult to separate fact from fiction. He came from Hong Kong and spoke Cantonese rather than Mandarine, so where that fitted into the fleeing the cultural revolution bit came in, I'm not sure. The form he "created" from memory of what he saw, is Traditional Yang 85 form move for move. He only changed the way that the postures are performed! You experienced some of the myths that Taoist Tai Chi Society Instructors and members continue to perpetuate without question.

Very Best wishes

Alistair Sutherland

 

[brothershaw]

In most martial arts you assume the teacher is proficient in the martial applications, and will teach you that as well. In tai chi so much other "stuff" has been attached to it, you cant make that assumption. So basically you have to ask up front if the teacher knows applications, and can he demonstrate his knowledge of them . If he doesn't know applications and thats what you are looking for then leave.If you ask politely and he gets upset, and he or one of his senior students wont demonstrate knowledge of applications then leave.
Think about it, who has money and time to waste for years?
It takes years to get good at anything but look at the senior students, they are a good or bad reflection of the teacher.
An honest teacher will let you know up front if they are just teaching it for relaxation or health benefits and there is nothing wrong with that, if thats what you are looking for.

 

[East Winds]

Brothershaw,

You are right on the money! I teach Taijiquan but I also teach Taiji classes for health. (i.e. 24 Step Simplified Form). However the only difference between the classes is that for health, we do not practice applications, push hands or Chin Na. Apart from that the postures must be the same in both classes. You can only understand end frame postures in terms of martial application. There is no magical, mystical, esoteric Chi phenomenon. Only good body mechanics and strong body structure! That way you can generate and use Jins both for martial and health purposes. It is not possible to talk Taiji unless you also talk martial.

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland

 

[Taiji fan]

There always seems to be a distinction that real taiji is about proficiency in martial applications and just teaching for health or relaxation means that you can get away with teaching at a low level of competence. This is simply not true. Admittedly not everyone who trains in taijiquan is looking for fighting skills, but training for health is not a poor relation. The applications must still be understood, at the very least in the end frames, and the body mechanics must be correct or.....no taiji...its a simple as that. Too many people claim to be just teaching the health side, and many of them are still not actually teaching taiji at all, they are teaching dance or musical movement. Equally I have seen a number of teachers in the UK who profess to be teaching martial taiji....and yes they are pretty good fighters...but they wouldn't know a taiji principle if they fell over it. There is such a poor standard of taiji in general which is the real problem. I would rather train with someone who was structurally correct and understood the essences than someone who could demonstrate an application as merely a technique without an understanding of the true mechanics. Sadly when you are starting off you really don't know what you are getting......

 

[Tomyum]

In my investigation of Chinese martial arts, I've found that some forms cannot be directly applied and should be slightly modified with fighting/self-defense in mind.

As a muay thai practicioner for 2 years now, I have practiced contact sparring against boxers, thaiboxers, wing chun and karateka - I have noticed that the techniques practiced by these fighters were readily transferable in sparring as practiced in class.

I recently watched several video clips of a xing yi instructor show applications of pi quan. He and his partner assumed stances and his partner threw a lifeless kick into the air (not the instructor) followed by a punch that was locked at the elbow. His opposing arm was down and his chin was open. He could have easily disengaged to counter attack.

The partner then volunteered the locked punch position so that the instructor could perform the pi chuan forms 'cover' and strike. The partner then threw a kick followed by a punch. The kick was done briskly, but gave the instructor too much time to do a fancy block which dropped his hands and then set for the punch. If his partner threw the punch right after the kick as if sparring, he would have been clocked.

The instructor then showed ma (horse form?) applications against kicks. These were done allmost simultaneously as the attacker kicked and were done very effectively!

In another clip, the instructor demonstrated a pushing hands? technique where he hardly moved and sent the attacker flying 5 feet back. This was simply amazing! and it reminded me of Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch.

While I was impressed with the effective kick defense and demo of "body power", I could not help but notice the defenses against a punch were not realistic. The instructor had nice technique, but not much fight experience so it seemed, as no one will lock their punches in sparing or worse, an assault.

 

[liangzhicheng]

The applications must still be understood, at the very least in the end frames, and the body mechanics must be correct or.....no taiji...its a simple as that.

Amen to that. If you truly want Tai Chi, you need to understand and be able to produce the martial aspect.

taijiquan is basically an art for masochists...........

Funny...I've often said the same thing. In our class, we thank each other for being pushed off balance. Plus, it's just fun to experience "flying" when someone correctly applies a technique

Ken JP Stuczynski, I admire your attitude and honesty.

As far as good Tai Chi in Southeast Michigan...Wu Style has two academies in SE Michigan, one in Ann Arbor, and one in Royal Oak, and several classes offered in surrounding communities.

Judging Tai Chi's combat ability by forms is a tough thing to do (for a low level student like me, at least). For one thing, the applications are often hidden. From what I know, Chen shows more martial things, with explosive power. However, in traditional Wu style, the form is performed at constant speed, which makes it harder to read.

My Sifu told me a story about her experience with judging skill. When my Sifu was still a beginner, she was watching a tournament, and this one guy had an amazing, beautiful form. She was very surprised when this guy did not get high marks. Appearances can be deceiving. I think that in order to see whether someone has skill through their forms, one must have good knowledge of Tai Chi or perhaps another internal art. Therefore, to a novice/outsider, a Tai Cheee dancer and actual master might look similar.

As far as Tai Chi lacking certain training methods, I think this depends on the teacher and the level of the students. The teacher might not know how to train certain things, but it's also possible that the students aren't ready to train those things yet and would only hurt themselves if they did them. What ground techniques does Wu style have? I don't know, but then again, I'm still quite the beginner. I have some experience with chin na, and Wu style has quite a bit of that.

While a Tai Chi practicitioner is supposed to be able to react to any type of situation, for most people, it is easier to react to a situation they have experienced in the past. In practicing Tai Chi, one shouldn't be stiff and hard. This brings a dilemna: how to gain experience against stiff and hard people when Tai Chi students shouldn't be stiff and hard? I personally rely on the other person being hard and stiff, and am not going to be hard and stiff to provide my training partner with an example. I think this is an area in which tournaments may help. In tournaments, you are exposed to students of other Tai Chi schools who may or may not be practicing proper Tai Chi, giving one an opportunity to deal with stiff people. Even this isn't a great solution, as push hands is not really combat. Freestyle, I think, is the way to train combat. Unfortunately, I'm not ready to train freestyle yet.

IMHO it's important that people realize that Tai Chi is not composed of a set number of kicks/punches/throws/etc. I've been told that Tai Chi was created as answer to all other styles, which is not possible if Tai Chi was a finite set. Tai Chi is based on a set of principles. As long as the movements are in accordance with those principles, one is performing Tai Chi. From one comes two, from the two come the ten thousand.

 

[arnisador]

How many people here have used Tai Chi in self-defense?

Actually, I think I'll split this off as another thread--please answer there!

 

[TonyL]

I am a new to this web board and would like to share some information about a related style that got some of its roots from Tai Chi.
Ki Chuan Do the John Perkins system of self-defense was greatly influenced by authentic temple trained Tai Chi Master Wayson Liao. John Perkins studied the teachings of Master Liao and applied the offensive and defensive aspects to his own system.

 

[arnisador]

Can you point us to a web page?

 

[TonyL]

Originally posted by arnisador
Can you point us to a web page?

www.attackproof.com

 

[chinkoobake]

Originally posted by arnisador
How many people here have used Tai Chi in self-defense?

Actually, I think I'll split this off as another thread--please answer there!

where?