Tai Chi as a combat art?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by chinkoobake
where?

See:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9720
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2275

 

[KOROHO]

Many think of Tai Chi as Chinese stretching, or that exercize old folks do to keep their arturitis (missspelled on purpose) at bay.

At its roots however, lies a tested and efficient means of self defence sharing many of the same ideas at Aikido.
:asian:

Thank you. I hope these guys (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=564470&posted=1#post564470) see this.

 

[oldyangtaijiquan]

I also recommend Ki Chuan Do (Attack Proof) to learn how to use Taijiquan (principles) for fighting.
Anybody who practice Taijiquan (as a martial art / self-defense) must know how to use it.
Today only few systems/schools teach how to fight with TJQ and KCD is one of the best (simple and effective).

 

[Xue Sheng]

I also recommend Ki Chuan Do (Attack Proof) to learn how to use Taijiquan (principles) for fighting.
Anybody who practice Taijiquan (as a martial art / self-defense) must know how to use it.
Today only few systems/schools teach how to fight with TJQ and KCD is one of the best (simple and effective).

No offense, but Ki Chuan Do is not part of Tai Chi and not necessary if you want to know how to truly use Tai Chi, as it was meant to be used, as a martial art. However if you go the traditional route it will take awhile, but it will be true Tai Chi Martial Arts.

Ki Chuan Do was something made up by an ex-police officer in the late 70s and it is not necessary to learn if you are learning “complete” tai chi. Martial arts is part of Tai Chi and Ki Chuan Do is not. And to be honest, there are no shortcuts.

I can also go learn Jujitsu and see Tai Chi applications too, as a matter of fact when I first started Tai Chi I came from Jujitsu and although I saw the applications I was using WAY to much force. I did not have an understanding of the internal at that time. And at times I still wonder if I truly understand it 15 years later.

 

[oldyangtaijiquan]

Xue Sheng - I agree only partially with you.
I agree that KCD is not necessary and also that it is no part of TJQ. There are very few that teach the TJQ in the traditional MARTIAL route!!! The greater part of people on this forum probably didn't (and will probably not) meet such master.
KCD uses (and teach to use) the same principles of TJQ for real self-defense situations. This is usualy not teached in TJQ schools. In KCD system are clearly shown how to use the principles of balance, coordination, looseness and sensitivity in fighting. KCD is mainly principles based system and is not limited with singular techniques.
Practice TJQ form (it the principles are not explained correctly) is like to have a weapon but not know how to use it (here I am not talking about martial applications of the singular postures). TJQ postures have a limited value if the principles behind them are not mastered.

If it was so simple as you said there will not be so many troubles to answer the question of this topic: "Tai Chi as a combat art?" The problem is that (the teaching of) TJQ lost its combative spirit (after the 1930). TJQ was created for combat and like that must be teached!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng - I agree only partially with you.
I agree that KCD is not necessary and also that it is no part of TJQ. There are very few that teach the TJQ in the traditional MARTIAL route!!! The greater part of people on this forum probably didn't (and will probably not) meet such master.
KCD uses (and teach to use) the same principles of TJQ for real self-defense situations. This is usualy not teached in TJQ schools. In KCD system are clearly shown how to use the principles of balance, coordination, looseness and sensitivity in fighting. KCD is mainly principles based system and is not limited with singular techniques.
Practice TJQ form (it the principles are not explained correctly) is like to have a weapon but not know how to use it (here I am not talking about martial applications of the singular postures). TJQ postures have a limited value if the principles behind them are not mastered.

If it was so simple as you said there will not be so many troubles to answer the question of this topic: "Tai Chi as a combat art?" The problem is that (the teaching of) TJQ lost its combative spirit (after the 1930). TJQ was created for combat and like that must be teached!

First who said it was simple?

I am saying it is much harder than what you are saying and that Ki Chuan Do is a shortcut that, although useful, is not teaching what Tai Chi as a Martial art is. I am saying that if you want to know Tai Chi as a Martial Art there are no shortcuts.

As too many teachers not teaching it as a martial art, no argument there. But I feel that since you used the date "1930" that you are limiting this to Yang Style. If you go to a Chen School you are more likely to still see the Martial Arts side being taught, although not as much as you use to , but much more than Yang. And if you are lucky enough to find a Zhaobao school it is very likely you will see the martial arts still taught.

However most do not want the MA in Taiji any longer and that is very upsetting to me. I tend to believe that Tai Chi as a martial art is dying and Yang style as a martial art is dead.

There are many more people practicing Tai Chi for health than MA today and it is only getting worse. I have trained the MA side of Tai chi, it takes a long time but it is worth it. However I do not see many others doing that today.

And I truly mean no offense here, but I feel things like Ki Chuan Do are only making it worse. It is in my opinion a shortcut that is under mining true Tai Chi. However it also may be the only thing that keeps some sort of MA in what Tai Chi is becoming. And so far I am not all to pleased with what Tai Chi is becoming. I also do not feel that Ki Chuan Do is part of Tai Chi, it is a Martial Art, just not Tai Chi. Anymore than JKD is Wing Chun or Hapkido is TDK.

 

[pete]

i am really getting tired of these excuses , saying that the martial art is no longer in tai chi, and nobody teaches it anymore, and so on and so forth.

like anything else in life: (1) if it was easy, everyone would be a master, you may have to apply yourself to finding a quality teacher, (3) be patient and consistent in your practice, and (4) remember, you get what you pay for!

it may not be 'round the corner, it may be expensive, but they certainly exist in numbers where you should have a choice. i know that has been my experience.

now get off your **** and do it~

 

[oldyangtaijiquan]

1) Xue Sheng - Again I can't agree with you ;-) Nothing wrong, just different opinions.
2) Ki Chuan Do is not a shortcut, but teach you more clearly how to fight (defend yoursef). KCD don't make it worse, contrary make it more clear how to fight with TJQ. KCD is based (also) on TJQ principles, and analogly can help understand how to fight with TJQ.
3) I didn't tell that the problem is with the Taijiquan, but I was talking about the teachers/people. In my opiniom the Yang style is even more martial than others TJQ styles (my opinion). Nothing dead here Also TJQ is still alive, but people mindset is wrong.

 

[pete]

what exactly is ki chuan do? how is it more clearly to fight, yet not a shortcut? my experience with tai chi is there are no secrets, there are no shortcuts, there is only a method, a master, and a mindset.

 

[Xue Sheng]

1) Xue Sheng - Again I can't agree with you ;-) Nothing wrong, just different opinions.
2) Ki Chuan Do is not a shortcut, but teach you more clearly how to fight (defend yoursef). KCD don't make it worse, contrary make it more clear how to fight with TJQ. KCD is based (also) on TJQ principles, and analogly can help understand how to fight with TJQ.
3) I didn't tell that the problem is with the Taijiquan, but I was talking about the teachers/people. In my opiniom the Yang style is even more martial than others TJQ styles (my opinion). Nothing dead here Also TJQ is still alive, but people mindset is wrong.

I am sorry, but I had to go look this up to refresh my memory. I read about Ki Chuan Do many years ago, back when I was studying a bit of Chen style, before changing to Yang style (back when I was less annoyed about the state of Tai Chi. Should have stayed with Chen) All I could remember was that it was not tai chi and it was designed by an ex-cop in the late 70s.

But this is how I feel about it now and how I felt about it then.

Ki Chuan Do is a combination of; Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Kung Fu, Karate, Tai Chi with a dash of pit fighting. It is NOT tai Chi. I am not saying it is not effective, but it is not tai chi. It enhances Tai Chi in the same way the study of Hapkido, Wing Chun, MMA, or Jujitsu would and they are not tai chi either. Basically they use to much muscle, Tai chi uses little or no muscle by comparison. They can attack and train to attack. Tai Chi does not attack.

Ki Chuan Do is as much Tai Chi as Judo, Jujitsu, Hapkido, Karate, Shaolin Kung fu, Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Brazilian Jujitsu or MMA are Tai Chi. Which is to say it is not tai Chi at all.

And we obviously have observed different Taiji schools and trained in different Taiji styles.

I wish I were wrong and alone in my assessment but at least in my area I am not wrong and I am not alone in this thought in many areas of the planet.

However I am willing to admit I do not know about all tai Chi schools everywhere.

Question did you learn or practice any Tai Chi martial arts such as forms applications, push hands and freestyle push hands or is all does all of that MA application come from Ki Chuan Do? If it comes from Ki Chuan Do it is most definitely not Tai Chi.

Ki Chuan Do is a viable and effective MA on its own, but it is not Tai Chi.

Liu He Ba Fa is not tai Chi either, but yet it is supposedly a combination of Tai Chi, Xingyi and Bagua. But is not any of those it is Liu He Ba Fa.

 

[Streetfigher2006]

Hi I am John from the UK and I am 23 years old. I'm not trying to start a flame war but personally think Tai chi is a waste of time. Maybe good for meditation and health but that's it. If you want do soft martial arts try Jujutsu. It is better alot than taichi and its soft. I went to a taichi class one time and there was no martial arts at all going on and lots of old people.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

That the problem, it's often taught in a watered down form as low impact stretching for seniors.

Find the right teacher though, and it's got some serious stuff.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Hi I am John from the UK and I am 23 years old. I'm not trying to start a flame war but personally think Tai chi is a waste of time. Maybe good for meditation and health but that's it. If you want do soft martial arts try Jujutsu. It is better alot than taichi and its soft. I went to a taichi class one time and there was no martial arts at all going on and lots of old people.

Tai Chi, when taught as a MARTIAL ART it is highly effective. And when the martial techniques are not taught it still provides excellent health benefits. Apparently the class you went to did not teach the martial aspects of the art. It may be practiced slowly, but it is used quickly. I think before you start making assumptions about arts you have little experience with, you should do some research first, or ask questions from more experienced practioners before assuming what it is and isn't. :asian:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hi I am John from the UK and I am 23 years old. I'm not trying to start a flame war but personally think Tai chi is a waste of time. Maybe good for meditation and health but that's it. If you want do soft martial arts try Jujutsu. It is better alot than taichi and its soft. I went to a taichi class one time and there was no martial arts at all going on and lots of old people.

I am not trying to start a flame war either but you either do not understand Tai Chi or you have never seen real Tai Chi trained or practiced.

Might I ask what you experience with Tai Chi is?
In fairness I will tell you I have about a year in Chen a Year in Wu and 12 years in Yang/Dong and I am returning to Chen

What styles have you seen?
Also in fairness I will tell you I have seen (live not on tape) Chen, Wu, Yang, Zhaobao, Cheng Manching and Dong. I have also seen Chen, Yang, Zhaobao and Cheng Manching in push hands and martial arts training.

And I will add that it is likely you have only seen Tai Chi light and it was Yang Style light as well. There are other styles, Chen, Zhaobao, Wu, Wu/Hao, Sun, Dong, Fu, and of course real Yang style, etc.

And just to let you know the last International Sanshou match in Vietnam the bronze for men was taken by a Cheng Manching Tai Chi practitioner and the Silver for woman was taken by a Cheng Manching Tai Chi practitioner.

EDIT: And one more thing one of the most application and fighting centered teachers I have ever had the honor to meet and train with once was William CC Chen a Cheng Manching Style master, as far as I am concerned. And to finish I have also trained Japanese Jujitsu, TDK, and Xingyiquan and other styles but they were trained for such a short time I will not list them here.

 

[charyuop]

I think that what mislead people regarding Tai Chi is timing. If you go to a few classes of external martial arts you come out with the assumption of being a "God" LOL well some people do. Anyway, my point is that learning external martial art will give you almost an immediat fighting knowledge, while learning Tai Chi (either for health or for fighting) is rather a longer process.
I doubt you go to a Tai Chi class and the first day they show you something related to martial art, but I might be wrong.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think that what mislead people regarding Tai Chi is timing. If you go to a few classes of external martial arts you come out with the assumption of being a "God" LOL well some people do. Anyway, my point is that learning external martial art will give you almost an immediat fighting knowledge, while learning Tai Chi (either for health or for fighting) is rather a longer process.
I doubt you go to a Tai Chi class and the first day they show you something related to martial art, but I might be wrong.

Typically very true.

Also what many do not see nor do they have the patients or desire to get to is that there are Tai Chi fast sets. But you are never taught those in the beginning. And you usually do not get to push hands applications and form applications until you get the forms right which also takes awhile

 

[charyuop]

Oh I forgot, even tho you don't train Tai Chi as a Martial Art (unfortunately like me, for lacking of teacher that does it) the movements remain imprinted in you and come out naturally after a while. I have personally used Tai Chi twice without thinking about it, once jockingly and once save me from breaking few bones.
The first time a friend of mine who does Aikido was playing with me and did a combination of 2 punches with a final sweep (without hitting me), after that he went for a kick to my said and it came natural to me, instead of running like I would have done in the past, to step in and do what is called carry tiger to mountain sending my friend on his butt (after that I received a pay back tho ;P).
The second time I was at work. I was carrying with the help of a co-worker(which is the same of the story above)an empty pallet. I was walking backwards and him on the other side forward. The guy couldn't see his feet and tripped. Doing so pushed the pallet towards me. Out of nowhere came natural to me (and I was really surprised) to do a rollback havin the pallet falling on the side of me. I am sure if I didn't do that I would have fallen on my butt with the pallet on top of me and for sure some broken bone.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oh I forgot, even tho you don't train Tai Chi as a Martial Art (unfortunately like me, for lacking of teacher that does it)

To whom are you referring to in reference to not training Tai Chi as a martial art?

 

[Xue Sheng]

If you want do soft martial arts try Jujutsu.

Sorry, I just noticed this,

Jujitsu is soft!? It must have changed a lot from when I trained it 30 years ago then. I have my doubts about you having any real jujitsu experience as well.

And for someone claiming to not want to start a flame war you sure started with a few very inflammatory statements.

 

[pete]

Jujitsu is soft!? It must have changed a lot from when I trained it 30 years ago then.

didn't they teach you the translation for the word jujutsu 30 years ago, or maybe you just forgot and didn't bother to reaquaint before typing your like 10 gazillionth post.