Taekwondo club governance and affiliations vs independance

Bangn

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Hello,

I would like to find out how clubs are typically controlled/affiliated. I would like to hear some comparisons from around the world simply because I would like to start my own school one day and want to better understand what is a normal situation out there, and what my options are for opening a new school.

For example, am I going to be paying my organisation for grading my pupils, or some sort of club membership fee? Can I be an independant TKD club and still have students obtain black belts at the kukkiwan? How does the relationship with the kukkiwan work anyway?
 

Leo89

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I think ATA (songham-style?) and ATF (Ho am-style?) are martial franchises, as where someone studying and teaching under kukkiwon (WTF) and chang hon (ITF) can open their own independent schools, the affiliation is just the head organization of the style (well, technically WTF is a tournament organization that recognizes kukkiwon style as the "official" style), so really if you study the later styles, you won't be paying a franchise fee.

You students may have to pay you for belt testing, equipment costs, etc.

But that's all I can tell ya, dirty dog could probably answer this better.
 
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Bangn

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Thanks, it would be WTF style. Where i am the main club is moo duk kwan style, i'm new here but have not encountered them before.
 

Leo89

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I really hate my damn phone right about now.

Technically you're style is kukkiwon, my master also has a moo duk kwan flag in his office, from what little I know moo duk kwan is a kwan (school) that contributed to the rest of the remaining 8/9 kwans, and is a split system between Tang soon do and Taekwondo, but is considered Tang soon do officially, does your school teach the kibon forms? I know those link to the Kicho hyeung, which is found in TSD.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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From what I have heard, if you want the kukkiwon to recognize their belts, you will need to pay (which means they need to pay). If you want to grade on your own merit, it is entirely up to you. My main art is kempo though, so I do not have much knowledge about TKD beyond what I've learned from others on this forum.

For your statement about being an independent TKD school while having students at kukkiwon. Based on what I have heard, they will not be 'officially' registered without you paying something to kukkiwon. However (assuming you are higher ranking), as long as you view them as having completed the requirements for the ranking, who cares what the international company that doesnt know the person thinks about the advancement. Just run your school as you want, and policies be damned.

If you are your students wish to participate in tournaments though, this idea does not hold. Either enter open tournaments where they don't care about who qualifies the rank, or suck it up and pay the kukkiwon fees,
 

WaterGal

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You have to pay Kukkiwon a fee for every black belt testing that you register with them. Then they send you a nice certificate and ID card, and put the students in their database of certified black belts.

Beyond that....... in some countries, such as the US, you can deal directly with Kukkiwon as long as you have at least a 4th dan, but in others, there is a national organization that acts as an intermediary. If you deal directly with KKW, the only fees you need to pay them are the black belt testing fees, but a national organization may have different requirements and costs. Without knowing where you live, we can't give you more information about that.
 

Dirty Dog

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Thanks, it would be WTF style. Where i am the main club is moo duk kwan style, i'm new here but have not encountered them before.

KKW, not WTF. There is no such thing as WTF Taekwondo.

If you want the KKW to recognize/register your belts, then you need someone of at least KKW 4th Dan to fill out the forms and send them to the KKW along with the fee.
That's pretty much it. There are no other fees for the KKW, although they do want you to take various instructor classes and you do pay for those.

If you want to be an independent, then be an independent. Train people, and award them rank within your school.

The Moo Duk Kwan was the largest of the Kwans involved in the unification. Some split off almost immediately, and returned to teaching Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. The main portion of that branch eventually altered the curriculum and changed the name to Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan, but some remained with TSD. Other groups split off later and teach Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan. The curriculum in those schools will tell you something about when they branched off from the unification. Ours, for example, split off before the taegeuk forms were developed, so we teach the earlier TKD system using the palgwae forms as our core.
 
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Bangn

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Thanks for your replies, i find them very interesting and useful going forward I have a better idea of things are run. Thanks for taking the time to explain.
I'm living in mexico currently, it will be another year or so before I open a school but I like to plan ahead with my eyes open!
 

andyjeffries

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That's pretty much it. There are no other fees for the KKW, although they do want you to take various instructor classes and you do pay for those.

Just to be clear (I know you didn't say it this way, but for the OP) they would like you to take the instructor course but it isn't mandatory. I've been twice and loved it both times (posted a diary on my blog both times), it's cheap ($250 for 4 solid days of physical training and lectures), but it isn't required in any way outside of opening a dojang in Korea.

However, depending on the Kukkiwon's feelings, the person recommending people for black belts may need to have a Poom/Dan Examiner qualification. I took the course in November 2015 and didn't particularly enjoy it, and since then the requirement seems to have gone quiet but not away.
 

Balrog

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I think ATA (songham-style?) and ATF (Ho am-style?) are martial franchises....
ATA is not a franchise, although they looked into it at one time. Each school is independently owned and operated. We are licensed to teach Songahm Taekwondo, which is copyrighted. ATA provides us with training, tournament sanctions, and a wealth of marketing material and assistance.
 

TrueJim

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ATA is not a franchise...Each school is independently owned and operated. We are licensed to teach Songahm Taekwondo, which is copyrighted. ATA provides us with training, tournament sanctions, and a wealth of marketing material and assistance.

Over the years I've seen a number of ATA folks make a distinction between "franchise" and "independently owned and operated". I don't think there's a difference? but I could very well be mistaken!

I'm not intending this analogy to be pejorative: most McDonalds restaurants are also independently owned and operated. Most McDonalds restaurants do not belong to the McDonalds corporation at all. The owner pays McDonalds a fee to use the brand name, they buy their ingredients from the parent corporation, and they cook the food according to McDonalds guidelines...but the store itself is owned and operated by an individual. A lot of times you can see a plaque beside the cash registers with the name of the owner of that restaurant.

I think? the word franchise means that a business is independently owned and operated, but pays a fee to the parent corporation to use the brand and associated materials....which is what ATA does, I think?

What's the difference between "franchise" and "independently owned and operated" ? Why are ATA schools not "franchises" ? I'd sincerely like to understand the distinction.
 

Earl Weiss

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Franchises are independently owned and subject to numerous requirements, standards and practices imposed by the Franchiser (i.e. McDonalds Corp.) A Licensor can grant you a license to use certain names and materials etc. for specified purposes and typically involves less regulation. Franchises are heavily regulated by State Law. Licenses are not. Toward that end some License agreements will impose various requirements but try to stay under the threshold that would make then regulated as a franchisor. I have seen License and even "Supply" agreements that IMO were disguised franchise agreements evident from the large number of ongoing requirements. One fuel supply agreement govenred uniforms, hours of operation and all sorts of operational requirements.
 

TrueJim

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...Toward that end some License agreements will impose various requirements but try to stay under the threshold that would make then regulated as a franchisor...

So it's a question of degree. If the ATA parent corporation regulated the individual schools more, the license would probably rise to the level of being a franchise.

Got it! Thank you!
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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KKW, not WTF. There is no such thing as WTF Taekwondo.

If you want the KKW to recognize/register your belts, then you need someone of at least KKW 4th Dan to fill out the forms and send them to the KKW along with the fee.
That's pretty much it. There are no other fees for the KKW, although they do want you to take various instructor classes and you do pay for those.

So you don't first have to register a school with the KKW? So long as the BB is 4th dan, he is good to go? For example, could you be a 4th dan at a club that is not yours (i.e., you are not the owner/master/GM), and promote others to 1st dan that are not at the club you attend? If so, what would you put in the "dojang" box?
 

Dirty Dog

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So you don't first have to register a school with the KKW? So long as the BB is 4th dan, he is good to go? For example, could you be a 4th dan at a club that is not yours (i.e., you are not the owner/master/GM), and promote others to 1st dan that are not at the club you attend? If so, what would you put in the "dojang" box?

Whatever you want, I suppose. There are places online that will register your KKW rank for you, and there have been high ranking KKW people here who have offered to do the same for people, including people who never actually trained in the KKW system (the KKW has long endorsed this practice of awarding crossover rank - it's one reason I call them the Borg...).
Maybe @andyjeffries or someone else who spends more time dealing with KKW-stuff can add something?
 

Archtkd

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So you don't first have to register a school with the KKW? So long as the BB is 4th dan, he is good to go? For example, could you be a 4th dan at a club that is not yours (i.e., you are not the owner/master/GM), and promote others to 1st dan that are not at the club you attend? If so, what would you put in the "dojang" box?

To be eligible to recommend your students for Kukkiwon poom/dan promotion you have to be a 4th dan at the minimum and in addition be registered as an individual member of the Kukkiwon Membership System (KMS). When applying for KMS membership an instructor must also provide the Kukkiwon with a copy of a state/local government business (dojang) registration and address. If you operate a club within an organization like the YMCA, you have to provide the Kukkiwon with a copy of an approval letter to operate the club, issued by that organization. Mind you all that only applies to so called Category 1 countries like the U.S and some Europeans countries, and probably Canada. In countries that are not Category 1, only the Member National Association (MNA) of the World Taekwondo Federation in those countries can recommend taekwondoin for Kukkiwon dan/poom certification. The loose defination of non Category 1 countries used to be those countries where the WTF MNA controls at least 70 percent of taekwondo bodies and private instructors.
 
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TrueJim

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For example, could you be a 4th dan at a club that is not yours (i.e., you are not the owner/master/GM), and promote others to 1st dan that are not at the club you attend? If so, what would you put in the "dojang" box?

This is a very insightful question. This is exactly the problem that the Kukkiwon Examiner's Course (new in 2015) was intended to address.
  • If you're a 4th dan, and the student is one of yours, then you can promote the student...as long as you've taken the Examiner's Course.
  • If you're a 4th dan, but the student is from another club or school, then you're supposed to convene a panel of judges for the test.
This is what caused all the controversy earlier this year. All of a sudden, high-dans were saying, "Wait, what? I've been promoting people for 20 years based on my own judgment, and now I need to convene a panel?"

And of course this raised the second question: Well what's to stop somebody from lying about somebody being their student? As Andy Jeffries reported earlier in the year, Kukkiwon is trusting that people won't lie about that.

But then for those who actually thought this through, this raised the third question: But wait, if somebody was willing to lie about a student's ability, why would they not also lie about who their students are?"

In my opinion, Kukkiwon didn't think this new policy through very well.

A summary of the whole kerfuffle is provided here: Kukkiwon Promotion Rules (2015-2016). It's this controversy that inspired USA Taekwondo to create a separate process for issuing their own dan certificates: U.S. National Dan Program
 

TrueJim

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That's misleading. What new policy?

The March 2016 policy requiring 4dan+ to take the Examiner's Course if they want to promote past 2nd dan. The one described here: Kukkiwon Promotion Rules (2015-2016)

Like I said, it relies on an "honor system" to enforce the idea that you won't by yourself promote somebody from another club or school (you'll only promote your own students). But if somebody was already dishonest enough to take money in exchange for promoting somebody who hadn't earned it, then why won't that same person also be dishonest enough to lie about somebody being their student in the first place? To me it doesn't seem like the new policy actually solves anything.

P.S. It was previously discussed here: Kukkiwon Promotion Rules changes
 

andyjeffries

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As far as I know though, the new policy isn't law yet (for want of a better way of phrasing it). The course has been delivered a few times, some people are qualified, but as far as I know it's not a requirement at this point in time.
 

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