Tactics against the flamingo sparrer

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Gaidheal

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See, now I would not think of them in the same way... I guess I'd make a distinction between bringing a leg to a "chamber" (from TKD thinking) position in order to block a kick, or even as a feint (and presumably returning it to the floor or otherwise not remaining on one leg) and the STANCE which implies staying 'permanently' on one leg and inviting an attacker to approach, then reacting with a kick of some form (usually).

'Crane' stance is a term for the latter as a formal stance in some (primarily Kung Fu, in my experience) styles. One form I have seen is that where the practitioner raises the arms, bending them at 90 degrees (so that elbows point forward and upper arm is close to horizontal) as 'wings'. I believe this or something similar was in "Karate Kid".
 
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DragonFooter

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Gaidheal said:
See, now I would not think of them in the same way... I guess I'd make a distinction between bringing a leg to a "chamber" (from TKD thinking) position in order to block a kick, or even as a feint (and presumably returning it to the floor or otherwise not remaining on one leg) and the STANCE which implies staying 'permanently' on one leg and inviting an attacker to approach, then reacting with a kick of some form (usually).

'Crane' stance is a term for the latter as a formal stance in some (primarily Kung Fu, in my experience) styles. One form I have seen is that where the practitioner raises the arms, bending them at 90 degrees (so that elbows point forward and upper arm is close to horizontal) as 'wings'. I believe this or something similar was in "Karate Kid".
A very good distinction of the two if I might say...i never tought of it as a seperate category
 

Marginal

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Gaidheal said:
"What are they trying to accomplish?"

Points, presumably ;¬)

I agree, my humble (for our club at least) sidekick counter will send anyone on one leg back at least 3 or 4 feet and probably onto their **** (they MIGHT be good enough to stay standing, after all...).

I've never seen this happen.

Sparring is not "real" in terms of a fight.

Kinda goes without saying...
 
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Gaidheal

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Sorry if I'm being stupid, but.. never seen what happen? (I can see three different interpretations).

Wish it did go without saying.. took me a while to realize that sparring is not Self Defence practice. Honestly. That was my mental attitude going into it, until I realized that was what I was doing and that it was also why I was having trouble. I know I am not unique in terms of not intuitively seeing the divide between "sport" stuff and self defence/technically correct techniques because I recently had three separate conversations in NGs/BBs about precisely this. It's something I consider to be "a bit of an issue" within TKD because I think the distinction needs to be made more than it sometimes is.
 

Marginal

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Gaidheal said:
Sorry if I'm being stupid, but.. never seen what happen? (I can see three different interpretations).

Well, I've never personally witnesseed you knocking over anyone, so that's one possible interpretation, but it's not especially irrelevant, so I felt it was safe to eliminate that as a possible intrepretation of my post. ;)

I've never seen anyone knock over someone on one leg with a side kick in ITF style sparring is what I was really saying. Most people I've seen go at it know enough to put their weight into the kick so that they're not easily dislodged by a side kick. (Much less thrown 3-4 feet away.)

Wish it did go without saying.. took me a while to realize that sparring is not Self Defence practice. Honestly.
Guess I was lucky. I already knew that going in. My inctructors also routinely make mention of it as well. Still seems a needless interjection in a thread about dealing with a flaminco style sparrer.

By definition, the question of the real fight has already been removed and it becomes merely pedantic to bring up the reality of fighting when it doesn't really apply to the topic at hand.
 
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Gaidheal

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Well, I move out onto a 45 to the side which they have the leg raised on.. i.e. they have raised right leg I move off to their right and deliver the sidekick at a 90 to that direction (i.e. 45 to MY right). Makes it hard for them to retain balance if they are inexperienced, because often as you move they kick straight in front, initially, then perhaps realize the technique needs to be sent to their side, but it is harder to change direction on one leg and it's (obviously!) less stable. With it being the other side to the standing leg, it's harder to regain balance even if they bring their leg down quickly, because the momentum is such that their c-o-m is moving outside the 'platform' they are trying to make, unless they step it down behind them. 3 - 4 feet? Hmm. I was exaggerating, I think LOL More like a foot a so away, really, basically onto ****. But at the least, if it's pulled off they are in an awkward stance ready for you to launch something else. It does rely on speed and also, probably not going to manage it repeatedly, although messing about with a friend I did (but we'd both been drinking). At the absolute least, if they stop the kick it ought to still worry them that you got around the leg thanks to their reduced ability to move and turn (stably at least).

The thing about SD vs Sparring? I think I was just thinking out loud. I realized relatively recently that I was seeing sparring in that way. Perhaps because of where I came to MA from anyway (i.e. looking for the SD aspect over anything else). It was more my mental attitude than a fault with the instructors, per se. I had not really managed to separate the idea of 'sport' and 'SD' within TKD. As for relevance in this thread.. 'Flaminco' or whatever you wish to call it CAN be made to work, for points sparring at least. But it'd be a really stupid idea in a "real" fight was I think where I was coming from.

Now, I know this bit is no longer in your post.. but it is in my inbox, so I'll tackle it anyway. Biting as an effective SD technique? Sure it is part of it, if you are unfortunate enough to wind up in a hold and can bite somewhere, I'd say do it. Bar fights? Not really, but after leaving nightclubs, sadly a couple of times and witnessed both far to often (I used to work behind a bar as a student and even did some 'door work' during that same period). Dog attacks? As stated in the thread which you must be talking about, aside from an overly enthusiastic pet, no dog has tried to attack me. I may have even over-reacted in that instance, since I don't like dogs. However I have seen real footage of them, as well as seen, firsthand, dog packs dealing with small animals.

Pedantic? Me? Never! ;¬)

John

P.S. "Ah. TKD sucks for self defense rears its gnarled hoary head yet again..." (quoted from my inbox) Now, why would you think I might say that given that TKD is the core of my Martial Arts and the only one I'm interested in 'belt chasing' in, as it were?
 

Marginal

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Gaidheal said:
Well, I move out onto a 45 to the side which they have the leg raised on.. i.e. they have raised right leg I move off to their right and deliver the sidekick at a 90 to that direction (i.e. 45 to MY right). Makes it hard for them to retain balance if they are inexperienced, because often as you move they kick straight in front, initially, then perhaps realize the technique needs to be sent to their side, but it is harder to change direction on one leg and it's (obviously!) less stable. With it being the other side to the standing leg, it's harder to regain balance even if they bring their leg down quickly, because the momentum is such that their c-o-m is moving outside the 'platform' they are trying to make, unless they step it down behind them.

This is a much better description. (Incidently I edited the post because I realized afterwards that you don't really say anything outrageous. It's just tends to be vague and needs further clarification.)

At the absolute least, if they stop the kick it ought to still worry them that you got around the leg thanks to their reduced ability to move and turn (stably at least).

True enough. A one legged person is inherently less mobile.

As for relevance in this thread.. 'Flaminco' or whatever you wish to call it CAN be made to work, for points sparring at least. But it'd be a really stupid idea in a "real" fight was I think where I was coming from.

Hey, it looks stylish in VF4 and Tekken. ;)

Biting as an effective SD technique? Sure it is part of it, if you are unfortunate enough to wind up in a hold and can bite somewhere, I'd say do it.

Evidence suggests that it's probably not really going to loosen a hold though. That's my only beef with the suggestion. Has a high probability of just making the grabber mad.

Dog attacks? As stated in the thread which you must be talking about, aside from an overly enthusiastic pet, no dog has tried to attack me. I may have even over-reacted in that instance, since I don't like dogs. However I have seen real footage of them, as well as seen, firsthand, dog packs dealing with small animals.

The main problem there is it all sounds theoretical. Personally, I don't want to risk a dog gnawing on my arm just to poke it in the eye. (Shrug)
 
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Gaidheal

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Evidence suggests that it's probably not really going to loosen a hold though. That's my only beef with the suggestion. Has a high probability of just making the grabber mad.
I'd never want to be in a situation where the only thing I could do was bite, because I was out of possible techniques. But if I was trapped with nothing else, I'd probably bite them for sheer spite. Not exactly going to make it worse (in a real fight they already want to hurt you, with very few exceptions) and it MIGHT pahse them, especially someone who grabbed without really thinking through what they are doing, what they want to do next, etc. Against a trained opponent, probably just annoys them and results in some equally ineffective but unpleasant revenge attack. *shrug*

The main problem there is it all sounds theoretical. Personally, I don't want to risk a dog gnawing on my arm just to poke it in the eye. (Shrug)
Chances are the dog will get your arm anyway, regardless. They really are that fast and determined. My position with is, don't offer it your arm, but when you do fail to fight it off and it has your arm, take its eyes out. Make more sense than the way I posted it earlier?

John

P.S. I can see where you are coming from with the 'vague' comment.. I have a habit of assuming that people know everything I know and thus leaving out the "taken for granted" stuff (to me). I shall try and be more precise and full in future ;¬)
 

hardheadjarhead

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the_kicking_fiend said:
Hi,

I just wanted some input from people about tactics about how to spar someone who uses flamingo style heavily. What I mean by flamingo is standing on one leg and having the other leg constantly chambered in usually a sidekick ready position or kind of half way inbetween a front kick and a sidekick position.

your fiendly fiend,
D

1. Kick 'em in the testicles.
2. Drop back spin kick the base leg. Do it hard and you'll break the leg above the ankle.
3. Axe kick the raised leg.
4. Back kick to the gut. You can "dog leg" your kick around their raised knee if its in the way.

One or two of those might be acceptable in a tournament...the others somewhat less so.

Regards,

Steve
 
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Gaidheal

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Axe kick and reverse kick both sound like they could work in ITF sparring. Not what I'd try but that is because I am not very good at Axe kick and the reverse kick risks being landed "unsighted" (for ITF sparring, not sure about WTF/others, you must be looking at the opponent when the technique lands) and thus getting a warning/DQ. I do agree, though, that the reverse kick is well suited to getting around the raised knee.

John
 

MichiganTKD

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In class, a good sliding side kick could very well work. Standing on one leg would not stop that kind of momentum.

For a tournament (and I'm using WTF rules), I could see a 45-degree lateral pivot to his open side and a back roundhouse to his head. What's he going to do? Hop out of the way? And his raised leg won't go that direction.
 
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ThuNder_FoOt

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You can also use an over-head round kick to their open side(simulates the path of an axe kick). I've scored using that kick with a 45degree shuffle. If done correctly, you can position yourself at an angle where its difficult for the flamingo person to pull off a kick with that leg, as it is usually jammed while you score.

Just my $0.02 :asian:
 

Touch Of Death

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the_kicking_fiend said:
Hi,

I just wanted some input from people about tactics about how to spar someone who uses flamingo style heavily. What I mean by flamingo is standing on one leg and having the other leg constantly chambered in usually a sidekick ready position or kind of half way inbetween a front kick and a sidekick position.

your fiendly fiend,
D
I've only read two responses to the question. Jamming the kick is one option, but your still playing his game. Make him put his leg down to come get you. Circle and control the distance. Play with contact and out of contact range, and get him to throw the kick out of frustration. Its not as if he can shuffle to get you, he's standing on one leg. There is a price to pay for fighting in this manner; so, you should overcharge him.
Sean
(edited for bad grammar) :uhyeah:
 

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