Sword making as part of system

[tshadowchaser]

Have you as part of your learning your art had to learn how to make a sword or is the learning of making the sword part of the requirements?
For those that may have tried be it as a requirement or not how did it go

 

[stickarts]

I have sharpened swords but never made one. Sounds like it would be interesting and fun though.

 

[Ninjamom]

Not a requirement in my art, but I had a student once who took it upon himself to learn, and did it anyway. Remarkable work in the end, too!

At some point I wouldn't mind trying. I think it would be a great way to learn a lot more about the mechanical, cultural, and historical underpinnings of the art.

 

[tshadowchaser]

If done in the traditional way, and possibly having to make ones own forge then find the raw iron and charcoal to forge would be a true challenge by itself. Forging the raw material into a useable steel would take some practice but I think any results would give the crafter a better understanding of the sword.

 

[arnisador]

Have you as part of your learning your art had to learn how to make a sword or is the learning of making the sword part of the requirements?

Japanese swordmaking isn't only a separate art, the different parts of it--forging, polishing, etc.--are themselves separate arts practiced as separate traditions. There was a program shown recently that really delved into the metallurgy beyond the katana and showed in great detail the steps involved, from finding good ore to the final polishing.

 

[tshadowchaser]

thanks for that link

I was lucky enough to see part of that program before I had to go to work one night.

That was one of the reasons I thought of asking the questions in this thread

 

[Sukerkin]

I second, Arnisador's input on this. The making of a katana is by no means a simple or short process and is the coming together (I restrained myself from saying 'forging' ) of a number of very highly skilled disciplines.

It would be an interesting course of study but it is not a requirement for any sword discipline that I am aware of.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I thought swordmaking was an art in itself. Meaning it has its own customs and tradition passed down. Certain swordmakers were sought out because of their skills. I imagine learning this skill of crafting a good sword would take a long time which would not leave a lot of skill to develop its usage.

 

[theletch1]

I thought swordmaking was an art in itself. Meaning it has its own customs and tradition passed down. Certain swordmakers were sought out because of their skills. I imagine learning this skill of crafting a good sword would take a long time which would not leave a lot of skill to develop its usage.

Agree wholeheartedly here. I've always dreamed of being a bladesmith. I've seen several programs on blacksmithing and bladesmiting. Making an axe seems pretty straightforward and even a sword in the western style seems much simpler than folding the steel as often as the japanese style and the tempering process (with clay) is seemingly more difficult. Still, I'd love to be an apprentice for awhile and then give it a whirl on my own.

 

[Sukerkin]

It's a fascinatiing subject to research, Jeff and I think you might find a few surprises about the lack of difference in quality and technical complexity between sword making of the East and the West.

 

[Flying Crane]

I do make swords, or at least everything but the blade itself. So I make the guard, pommel, grip, and scabbard, which I carve from wood and cast bronze fittings.

I do not make Japanse swords. I won't touch those, because I feel that those are a thing of their own and are simply out of my style and league. My weaponry is Chinese, the jian and dao.

I would love to learn to make blades, but currently I don't have the room for that kind of mess. So for now I content myself with hilts and scabbards, and I enjoy it quite a bit. Actually, just before I logged on today, I was setting up some molds to cast some bronze pieces for a sword I am working on.

For me, making the weapon has been very insightful. As someone who practices with my own weapons, I have a very clear idea of what makes for a good weapon, the different elements that make it feel good in the hand, such as balance and grip and such. Getting to know the weapon on that level, and understanding the work that goes into making a serviceable piece has given me a tremendous appreciation for both the weapon and the training that goes into using it. I do feel that I have a stronger connection to the weapon than they typical kung fu guy who is content to play with the tinfoil toys that are so prevelant in Chinese martial arts today.

As far as quality of steel goes, there are some tremendously high quality production steels that can make for excellent blades. You can acquire bars that can be ground into a blade, or use a sort of hybrid of forging and grinding for those who believe the process of forging improves the steel. I think that the tremendous forging techniques that the Japanese perfected (these techniques were definitely used by other cultures as well, including the Chinese, but I think the Japanese brought it to the highest level) were necessary in order to improve upon the quality of steel that was readily available at that time in history. But with modern smelting and production of specialty alloy steels, I do not believe it is necessary to use the old techniques in order to get a very very high quality blade. That being said, I have a tremendous amount of respect for the old methods, and I'd love to learn to forge a blade vs. grinding one out. I'm just saying that the modern methods that are much faster can also produce a very very good blade.

I think it is easy to tell when someone makes a sword, but they do not train with them and know nothing about their use. A friend of mine is a knife dealer, and he has been pestering me to go to a knife show and convention that he attends every year. So a year ago I showed up with him for a while one afternoon. I saw a number of swords that different people had made, and many of them were absolutely atrocious and completely unuseable. One had a big antler piece for a grip, which would have been cool except that it was far too thick for a comfortable grip and it curved into an odd angle that made it impossible to hold comfortably. Another person made a sword with a carved jade handle and a big machined steel guard. The grip was also very thick and uncomfortable, but it was also very very heavy. Not to mention that jade can be brittle and crack, so if you tried to use the weapon you might destroy it in your hand. The guard was also very problematical. It was machined into a fancy shape, that had sharp corners on the grip side, where you hand would rest against it. The weight of the hilt probably added 4 or 5 pounds to the weapon, it was so heavy it just couldn't be used.

These pieces were clearly made by people who do not understand how a sword is used. They were probably designed on a fantasy idea, and the reality just did not make for a serviceable weapon. Lots of work went into these, but I figure if you are going to put the work into it, then it ought to be useable. Put the time into makeing something with a good design, good craftsmanship, and good durability so it will hold up. Don't get fancy at the expense of serviceability.

After going to that show, I suddenly realized that my own work is really quite a bit better than most of those, and I am sure it comes from my training background.

Sorry for the long post, but you hit a topic that is rather close to my heart.

thanks!

 

[Ahriman]

I focus mainly on European stuff - both use AND making. Hell, I make a living by making arms and armours - yet I have time to study their actual use which helps with understanding designs better and better designs in turn help with my understanding of techniques. I'm only 21, but I have time for both activities, and can improve in both areas, so it can be done simultaneously.
...
Flying Crane: you're right in not believing that forging is needed for good quality with modern homogeneous steels. As far as the carbon content is the same, a forged and a ground blade will have exactly the same properties after heat treating. Actually forging is somewhat inferior to grinding due to the possibility of cracks developing. Of course with grinding you can't make pattern welded steel and it's undeniably slower in the rough phase (if you can remove more than 0.1mm with a pass, you're very good and you need to remove far more than that to have a good blade). I think the most efficient method of making weapons is the one used by some European workshops - forge the blade roughly then grind it to final shape. This differs from other cultures' methods by the fact that after the rough forging, you need a strong sense of fantasy to see the final blade in it thus grinding still means removing a good amount of steel.
That said, one of my biggest motivators since I was 12 is Dr. Hrisoulas... I'd love to learn making blades mainly by forging even with the trivial disadvantages.
...
It turned out to be a bit longer than I've expected - you could never guess I make steel stuff and that I love it...

 

[hogstooth]

Have you as part of your learning your art had to learn how to make a sword or is the learning of making the sword part of the requirements?
For those that may have tried be it as a requirement or not how did it go

Creating a sword is an art all unto itself. It literally takes years to learn to forge, anneal, normalize, differentially heat treat, quench, judge how the sori will come out after the quench, grind or file the bevels, polish (sharpen), make the Tsuba, fittings(seppa, habaki, koiguchi,fuchigane, kashiragane, menuki, kogiri, shitodome, etc.), Tsuka, wrap and tie the Tsukamaki (Ito) and to make the saya. Not to mention if you are going to make the tamagahane. that is a seperate discussion unto itself.
It would be impractical for any style or school to require you to make your own sword. It is not impossible, just impractacle.
If you are looking to make them look up your local Knife makers guild or look for makers online and inquire if they teach. Other than that I don't think you will find a school that requires you to make one as part of their requirements.