Sword and hammer pt. 1 and 2

[MJS]

Doc has some great posts about this subject that have really helped to inform my approach. I still practice my techniques on both sides, but with what he's said in the past in mind I've realized that some movements are inherently more effective with one side of my body or the other. That isn't to say that I can't become more proficient over time with each side, only that some moves may have a higher functional ceiling with one side of the body or the other. At least, that's my understanding today, maybe over time I'll learn more.


-Rob

For me, I've only done it with a handful of techniques. One of my past Kenpo schools, had this as a requirement for the upper belts. Personally, I'd have rather seen other stuff being trained, but that wasn't my call to make. As for the Arnis...well, were I to have to deal with a left handed attacker, I'd opt for just keeping my stick in my right, rather than handing it off to my left, but thats just me.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Okay, no full sequence can be used against any and every humanly possible attack. The idea is to learn the tech or sequence and NOT dispose of all the other tools in your arsenal. Remember when I kept telling you guys about my teaching method which parallels Matt Thornton's "I METHOD" approach? Well, you Introduce the tech, Isolate it and spar with it to ingrain the correct keenness of tech in execution vs resistance, and then you INTEGRATE IT BACK INTO YOUR ARSENAL. This process is what answers the question that many ask me and fail to grasp the answer to: why do you have more than one attack if you test your techs vs multiple scenarios attack ranges etc etc? The answer is simple: no one attack can FINISH EVERY FOE, even if you land the finishing blow/move. We've seen people have Kimuras clamp on them, have their shoulder and arm dislocated, and STILL fight or be ABLE to still fight should they choose. Does that mean that the Kimura didn't do it's job? Of course not. We've seen people take full on flying knees and spin kicks to their heads and neck. Finishes MOST people, but not ALL people. The lack of a 100% finish doesn't mean that we dispense with the flying knee or spin kick, any more than the fact that most people will get finished by such a tech landed full on and flush means that we rely on ONLY those techs to finish EVERY opponent. Yall feelz me now?

From a Full Nelson? In my Gym, by the time you learn my Sword and Hammer Radius R.D.L. sequence you already learned how to break out of a Full Nelson [ Full Nelson Defense A ]. But even if you didn't? You can even modify a Full Nelson escape simply by poking at BG's eyes while grapevining his legs as a set up to dropping into the Cover+double palm heel low block position [ elbows tight to your sides, thrusting palms breaks the Full Nelson or at least puts lots of strain on it], hip heist and you're back in position for Sword and Hammer. It's Position Recognition and Position Manipulation...plain and simple.

Bear Hug...arms in, one arm in one arm out...you already know the defenses that we use by the time you use Sword and Hammer so you can modify from right there. Scramble, hip heist H-frame hand control head butt and bang you're in position so go directly into my sequence [ cover spin Sword and Hammer Radius R.D.L. ]. Remember my tech BEAR HUG DEFENSE A which corresponds to EPAK's CAPTURED TWIGS and my CAPTURED TWIGS RADIUS R.D.L. ak BEAR HUG DEFENSE A video?

See...the R.D.L. [ Rock Drop and Lock ] aspects of each of my techs and sequences already cover these exigencies. It's part of learning each of the techs and sequences themselves. We deliberately apply our defenses vs other attacks in order to build into them the necessary flexibility and adaptability. I already said this numerous times.

I don't think he means exactly that. I think he means you could use #1 disarm with your right arm or your left in mirror image. Like training your techniques "left handed," which not everybody does, but he does with everything.


-Rob

^^^^an essential part of integrating the sequence back into your arsenal is the above. Cosign.

 

[ATACX GYM]

For me, I've only done it with a handful of techniques. One of my past Kenpo schools, had this as a requirement for the upper belts. Personally, I'd have rather seen other stuff being trained, but that wasn't my call to make. As for the Arnis...well, were I to have to deal with a left handed attacker, I'd opt for just keeping my stick in my right, rather than handing it off to my left, but thats just me.

What if your right hand becomes injured or is entangled or what if you're in a multifight or grappling? I understand and respect that your right is probably more adept than your left but I'd rather have two limbs--one amazingly excellent the other incredibly awesome--than one omg superfly stupendous limb. That's like playing bball and only having a ferocious right side game. They'll make you go left eventually...and if you're not superfly there too? Your team is toast.

They did it to Jordan with the Jordan Rules...but Jordan's demonic work ethic had long prepped him for such a possibility so he handled the challenge well.

I'm not saying that you DON'T train your left side rigorously [ I have no idea if you do or not, my friend ] but I'm advocating that you DO train both sides with extreme dedication and rigor. That's all.

 

[MJS]

What if your right hand becomes injured or is entangled or what if you're in a multifight or grappling? I understand and respect that your right is probably more adept than your left but I'd rather have two limbs--one amazingly excellent the other incredibly awesome--than one omg superfly stupendous limb. That's like playing bball and only having a ferocious right side game. They'll make you go left eventually...and if you're not superfly there too? Your team is toast.

They did it to Jordan with the Jordan Rules...but Jordan's demonic work ethic had long prepped him for such a possibility so he handled the challenge well.

I'm not saying that you DON'T train your left side rigorously [ I have no idea if you do or not, my friend ] but I'm advocating that you DO train both sides with extreme dedication and rigor. That's all.

With Kenpo: I spent an entire class working just that. I picked some basic, lower belt techniques to use. I had everyone put their right hand in their belt. We simply adapted using our left hand to block, or parry, or we'd simply avoid by stepping back, or up, on a 45. It certainly made everyone think.

With Arnis: As I said earlier, we have right v. right drills, right v.left, left v. right, and left v. left. I'd simply adapt and make the best of it. Given the fact that you need 2 hands to make alot of the stuff work, alot of the locks and disarms will probably be a moot point.

 

[Twin Fist]

If the throat is out of range I would adjust to another centerline target, most likely the "solar plexus."

that would force you to change the weapon, you cant really hit the solar plexus with a horizontal handsword, not if you want to penetrate really well anyway.

first strike is intended to cause the opponent to arch up and back, projecting the groin forward and making it easier to strike,

if you hit the solar plex instead because you couldnt reach the throat, you wont get the same opening to the groin since hitting the solar plex makes them bend forward instead of back in most cases.

and to cause him to look away from your target area, making the strike more difficult to defend. But let's say he does see it coming, even a simple motion towards the groin is likely to cause a large reflexive defensive flinch. Go try to hit your buddy in the groin, his whole body will convulse away from the strike and he'll probably jump away. It's both an instinctual response and a learned behavior. That movement will create secondary opportunities to attack. So either I chop his throat and rack him, or he breaks his stance and jumps away. Either way he's not sucker punching me anymore. The technique as I teach it is designed to work somehow whether the specific strikes land or not, and also has defenses against the opponent's possible follow ups built in. As to other alternate targets, I've actually altered many of the groin strikes I was taught to bladder strikes in my own method. I prefer the bladder because it is more likely to break the opponent's stance, is easier to strike, and still hurts like hell. -Rob

true

 

[ATACX GYM]

I'm going to reply to a few segments of this post between Ras and Chris. My replies will have a * at the beginning and end, to make it easier..I think, as to who's saying what.




Right. Ras, try to listen here.



Ras, to be completely blunt, this is the core of your problems, and the absolute evidence that you are not in any way right. In the slightest. Let's demonstrate, as you seem rather ignorant of what, or even how a technique teaches it's lessons.

The lessons of EPAK Sword and Hammer are numerous, but some that are immediately apparent are as follows:
- When grabbed, capture the grabbing hand for psychological and physical control.

Grabbing the BG's hand doesn't give you psychological or physical control. He grabbed you in order to control you by locking you down into place for, pushing you away from, or pulling you in to the incoming blows that he's raining on you. Using your far hand to pin BG's hand to your shoulder simply means that you're unwise enough to remove your unencumbered limb from combat, thus opening up other lanes for the BG to attack and hurt you [ or his friends to do the same ] and removing your limb from the possibility of offensive strikes.

*I disagree Ras. It does give a psychological/physical control. The common response from the defender would be to try to pull away, not marry the badguys hands to your body. Its just like a weapon...the badguy is using that weapon for intimidation and control. Not saying that he wouldn't use it, but he's expecting compliance, not grabbing the weapon.*

MJS THE ONLY WAY THAT COULD BE TRUE IS IF THE BG ISN'T THROWING A PUNCH AT YOU WHEN HE GRABS YOU. IF YOU PIN HIS HAND ON YOUR SHOULDER WITH YOUR OFF HAND, HE'LL JUST HIT YOU ANYWAY. IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU ANY SORT OF PSYCHOLOGICAL OR PHYSICAL CONTROL. HE WON'T BE TRYING TO PULL AWAY HE'S ALREADY COMMITTED TO PUNCHING YOU. WHY WOULD HE PULL AWAY WHEN HE HAS HIS HAND ON YOUR SHOULDER AND HIS FIST COCKED AND IS IN THE MIDST OF FIRING A PUNCH OR--AS IN MY SCENARIO--HE'S ALREADY PUNCHED YOU AND YOU'RE RESPONDING TO HIS AGGRESSION BELATEDLY? HE'LL JUST KEEP HITTING YOU,MAN. I'M ACTUALLY SURPRISED THAT A GUY AS SHARP AS YOU ARE MISSED THAT. MAYBE YOU'RE ENVISIONING A SITUATION WHERE HE'S JUST GRABBED YOUR SHOULDER BUT HASN'T LOADED A PUNCH TO FIRE YET..?

* But this is assuming that the punch will always be his next course of action. Thats like saying that every time a weapon is pulled, it'll be used. As I said, with a weapon, alot of the time its intimidation. Not saying they wont use it, just like i"m not saying they won't punch. In this case, you're assuming the punch will always happen. I disagree. That said, when someone is grabbed, their natural reaction is to pull away, not marry the guys hands, and move in, counter strike, etc.


PERHAPS I'M NOT MAKING MYSELF AS CLEAR AS I'D LIKE TO DUE TO POOR WORD SELECTION. I APOLOGIZE THEN. I DON'T ASSUME THAT THE PUNCH WILL ALWAYS COME. I ASSUME THAT THERE IS A REASONABLE THREAT OF OR REALITY OF AGGRESSION UPON OURSELVES AND WHATEVER THE SCENARIO WE NEED TO PUT OURSELVES IN CONTROL OF IT WHILE ELIMINATING SAME FOR THE BAD GUY. THAT INCLUDES PSYCHOLOGICAL INTIMIDATION...AND THAT'S ALL THE MORE REASON TO NOT BURN INTO OUR REFLEXES THE AUTOMATIC RESPONSE OF HANDSWORD TO NECK-HAMMERFIST THE NADS. YOU'RE RIGHT...NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE SPEND TIME IN WHAT YOU CALL THE "BEFORE" AND "AFTER" PHASES, FOCUSING MOSTLY ON THE "DURING". WELL, I BUILD INTO MY "DURING" THE CAPACITY TO FURTHER PROPERLY ANALYZE WHAT'S GOING ON WITHOUT SACRFICING AN OUNCE OF COMBAT EFFICACY.

WHAT I MEAN, MY FRIEND, IS THAT WHATEVER THE OFFENSIVE IS? OUR FIRST REACTIONS SHOULD NUETER IT. THE COVER AND SPIN FREES YOU OF THE GRAB, TAKES YOU OUT OF DIRECT LINE OF ATTACK FOR ANY HAND HELD WEAPON WHEN YOU SPIN OUTSIDE AND ALLOWS YOU TO ENGAGE AND DEFEND AGAINST SAID WEAPON IMMEDIATELY WHEN YOU SPIN INSIDE, AND ON THE GROUND YOU'RE ABLE TO NUETER FURTHER OFFENSIVES AND DROP YOUR OPPONENT WHILE PUTTING YOURSELF IN A SOLID LARGELY SAFE POSITION TO COUNTERATTACK. ALL OF THIS WITH A SINGLE MOVE. AND THAT SINGLE MOVE WAS CHOSEN BECAUSE WE ARE AWARE OF THE FACTORS THAT CAN HAPPEN IN CQC AND I TOOK THE TIME TO CONSIDER HIGH PERCENTAGE DEFENSES WHICH ARE THEMSELVES ATTACKS YET ARE SO SIMPLE EVEN UNCOORDINATED COMPLETE NOOBS CAN LEARN IT QUICKLY AND EFFICIENTLY. THEN I GOT ON THE MAT MYSELF AND WORKED IT OUT PHYSICALLY UNTIL I GOT THE INGREDIENTS RIGHT, AND CAME UP WITH THE RESULT THAT I WANTED...AND I KEPT THE WHOLE PROCESS TOP TO BOTTOM. WRITTEN NOTES AND EVERYTHING.

I FAIL TO SEE SUCH CONSIDERATIONS BUILT INTO THE EXECUTION OF THE MORE COMMON VERSION OF SWORD AND HAMMER. I'M NOT SAYING THAT TEACHERS LIKE YOU AND SAY ROB DON'T HAVE THOSE CONSIDERATIONS BUILT INTO YOUR CLASS LESSONS ON THIS AND OTHER SEQUENCES, WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT I DON'T SEE THESE CONCERNS BUILT INTO THE SEQUENCE ITSELF. YOU SEE ME? MY FIRST RESPONSE REFLECTS MY AWARENESS OF THIS SITUATION. IN EVERY SINGLE SEQUENCE I HAVE, THIS CONSIDERATION IS BUILT INTO IT. SOMETIMES IT'S MORE SUBTLE THAN OTHERS, BUT IN THE ACTUAL SEQUENCE OF MOVEMENTS THAT I TEACH-- ALL OF THEM--I HAVE THIS CONSIDERATION IN MIND
- When being pulled, go with the energy of that pull.

Most of the more common Sword and Hammer sequences that I've seen live as well as those on YT do NOT feature an actual pull by uke. Most have him posing and doing nothing. But even if they did feature the pull? They neglect to address the very high probability that the BG's punch is hard on the heels of the pull, so they'll be pulled into the oncoming punch in far too many cases. The "more common" Sword and Hammer version that you claim is superior to mine doesn't remotely address this reality.

*Ras, you keep harping on this, and frankly its kinda old. Of course you don't see this in those techs. Why? Because once again, its a platform to build from. Your method is taking the student from step 1 to 10, without hitting 2 thru 9. You make it seem like you're the only one to address a punch. You're not. I do it, just not as rapidly as you're doing it.*

THE FACT THAT I INTRO THE PUNCH IMMEDIATELY DOESN'T MEAN THAT I'M GOING FROM 1 DIRECTLY TO 10, WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT I'M PRESENTING A COMPLETE SCENARIO FROM DAY ONE TO BE TRAINED AGAINST. WE BREAK DOWN OUR RESPONSES AGAINST THE GRAB AND PUNCH WITH THE COVER AND SPIN FIRST. WE DON'T EVEN PROGRESS TO THE NEXT MOVES UNTIL YOU'RE HIT FIRST, RECOVER, AND THEN SPIN. THAT IS THE MOST ESSENTIAL ASPECT OF THE SEQUENCE. WE COVER BEING PULLED INTO THE PUNCH AND JUST GOING WITH OUR SWORD AND HAMMER THERE AS WELL AS SPINNING AWAY AFTER WE'RE CRACKED FROM THE REAR AND BEING PUSHED AWAY BY BODY PRESSURE AND PUNCHES. WE FOLLOW A VERY SPECIFIC PROGRESSION AND WE COVER ALL OF THE PRIMARY STEPS IN BETWEEN...BUT WE PRESENT A COMPLETE RESPONSE. WE JUST DO SO, AS YOU STATED, EARLIER THAN YOU DO. THAT'S A MATTER OF TRAINING PREFERENCE AND TRAINING PARADIGM, NOT A LACK IN TRAINING QUALITY. I'M SURE YOU TEACH YOUR MORE SLOWLY PACED METHOD WELL, AND I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT I TEACH MINE VERY WELL INDEED. AS LONG AS THE RESULT IS A FULLY FUNCTIONAL STUDENT? I DON'T SEE TOO MUCH TO QUIBBLE ABOUT.

*Umm...if we look at the early techniques, and katas, we'll see they're teaching specific things. This is mentioned in the 5 vol Parker books. Seems like to me, it'd make more sense to ease the student into dealing with 1 attack first, before trying to get them to deal with a grab and a punch. So yes, your way it taking them from 1-10. I cover the same thing you are, but I get them to deal with one thing first. As I said above, we're assuming that the punch will follow. What if it doesnt? I've seen people grabbed and moved around, slammed into a wall, etc.

KATAS ARE COMPRISED OF MULTIPLE MOVEMENTS AND OFTENTIMES DEMANDING, EXACTING STANCES. IN SHORT ONE...HOW OFTEN DO WE HAVE TO STOP AND REALIGN FOOT AND HEEL POSITIONING OF STUDENTS AS THEY'RE PERFORMING THE KATA? HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO FUSS ABOUT FLAPPING ELBOWS AND IMPROPERLY COUCHED FISTS BY THE HIPS? HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TELL THEM TO RELAX AND TRUST THEIR BODIES, DON'T BE SO ROBOTIC AND OVERTHING EACH MOVE? HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO REMIND THEM WHICH WAY TO TURN, WHICH FOOT TO STEP BACK WITH, TO TURN THEIR HEADS TO LOOK AT THE DIRECTION THEY'RE GOING AND VISUALLY CUE UP THEIR IMAGINARY FOE BEFORE THEY EXECUTE THEIR BLOCKS? HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TELL THEM TO BLOCK WITH AUTHORITY...DON'T JUST PUT YOUR HAND ARM IN THE AIR? I KNOW YOU FEEL ME.

EVEN SHORT ONE IS COMPRISED OF DIFFERENT BLOCKS TO THE CARDINAL DIRECTIONS AND COMBINED WITH A SENSE OF SPATIAL AWARENESS WHICH SHOULD RETURN YOU VERY NEAR TO THE SPOT THAT YOU STARTED YOUR KATA AT WHEN YOU'RE DONE. YES THEY TEACH SPECIFIC THINGS. MY SEQUENCE HAS MOVEMENTS ABOUT EQUIVALENT IN NUMBER TO SHORT 1. IT TEACHES A SPECIFIC THING. IT RETURNS YOU TO THE SPOT YOU STARTED AT [ STANDING ]. MY SEQUENCES ARE NO MORE GOING FROM 1-10 THAN LEARNING SHORT ONE TAKES SOMEONE FROM 1-10.

PLEASE LOOK AT MY 15 ROUND PROGRESSIONS WHEREIN WE GET IN LOTSA HIGH QUALITY REPS AND COMBINE THEM WITH THE VIDEO REGARDING THE INSIDE BLOCK THAT I SHOWED. I CAN LITERALLY FIND A KID AND HAVE A KID LIKE 10 YEARS OLD OR WHATEVER DO WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IN UNDER 3 MINUTES' TIME. NOT KIDDING, NO JOKE. I WILL FILM IT. WHENEVER I DO MY VIDEOS AT THE PARK? KIDS COME UP AND ASK ME ABOUT WHAT I'M DOING. I'LL CORRAL ONE OF THOSE KIDS AND PROVE TO YOU WHAT I MEAN BY MY PROGRESSIONS, MY FRIEND MJS. IT'S REALLY REALLY NOT HARD OR OVERLOADING. IT'S MERELY A DIFFERENCE IN TRAINING PARADIGM AND MAYBE DEMOGRAPHICS TOO. MAYBE THE PEOPLE I TEACH ARE MORE ATHLETIC AND MORE FAMILIAR WITH COMBAT THAN THE PEOPLE YOU TEACH. IDK. REGARDLESS? NEXT WEEK I WILL PUT UP VIDEO SHOWING YOU HOW EASILY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT CAN BE DONE.

- The use of pre-emptive striking as a tactic.

As I have previously stated and left links proving to be true...Kenpo Elders like Larry Tatum and Doc Chapel find the "pre-emptive strike" notion to be questionable at best. On the mat? Their skepticism is thoroughly underscored by actually sparring with Sword and Hammer vs the Hockey Punch.

* And thats their opinion. The use of a pre-emptive strike is very useful. Theres nothing 'questionable' about it at all. Numerous RBSD guys use it and speak of its effectiveness. The #1 reason people 'question' its use, is because to the average Joe passerby, it'll look like WE are making the first move. What the untrained person IS NOT seeing, is the agressive, threatening actions, by the badguy. THAT right there, is assault. Sorry, but anyone who would wait for the punch to be half way to their face before reacting, well, they're an idiot. As I've said a million times, and I'll say it a million more....my safety, and that of anyone with me is my #1 concern! I'll deal with the other BS later. *

MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE SPECIFIC AND CLEAR: THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE IDEA AND CONCEPT OF THE PREEMPTIVE STRIKE. THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF DIFFICULTY IN PULLING THIS CONCEPT OFF USING THIS SEQUENCE WHILE UNDER DURESS AND STILL HAVE A VERY HIGH LEVEL OF PROTECTION AGAINST LEGAL RAMIFICATIONS FOR GUESSING WRONG. WITHOUT SOME KIND OF ASSESSMENT MECHANISM BEING BUILT INTO THE SEQUENCE ITSELF AND REENFORCED VIA TRAINING, MUSCLE MEMORY COULD TAKE OVER AND YOU MIGHT BLAST SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T DESERVE THE SWORD AND HAMMER INTO OBLIVION. OR YOU MIGHT GO OVERKILL WITH THE FORCE ON SOMEBODY WHO DOES INDEED DESERVE THE SWORD AND HAMMER. AND THERE ARE ALOT MORE ISSUES THAT I SEE WITH THE WHOLE PREEMPTIVE STRIKE NOTION--NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH IS THAT IT'S THE LEAST LIKELY TO HAPPEN UNDER DURESS IN THIS KIND OF HOCKEY PUNCH SCENARIO AND MOST DIFFICULT IN MOST CASES TO LEGALLY AND MORALLY JUSTIFY--BUT IF YOU END UP WITH A FULLY FUNCTIONAL STUDENT USING YOUR METHOD? HAVE AT IT THEN.

*Can't be that hard, because there're people who preach the use of the pre empt and teach it, all the time. Saying its hard to pre-empt, because of duress, but pulling off a SD tech isn't, doesnt make sense. As for the legal stuff...this is why I've said many times, that the majority of schools teach only what I call the "During" phase, yet they leave out the "Before and After" phases, those being how to verbally defuse something and how to deal with the aftermath. Like I said, I'll deal with the legal stuff after.

Of course, I'm not necessarily talking about a preset SD tech. I'm talking about something as simple as a pre-emptive palm to the face, a kick to the shin, etc. I doubt those things, which are minor IMO, are going to land me in a heap. Even in the DOC, we had a use of force protocol to follow. Things like that are less frowned upon vs. if I knocked out a few teeth, took an eye, etc.

PREEMPTIVE STRIKES AREN'T THAT HARD...WE AGREE...DEPENDENT UPON WHEN THE PREEMPTIVE STRIKE IS TO TAKE PLACE AND WHAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE PREEMPTIVE. FOR INSTANCE, I HAVE A UNDERHOOK AND THROAT STRIKE IN MY CAPTURED STORM VARIANT WHICH PREEMPTIVELY STOPS ANY ATTACK FROM THE FAR ARM BY CANCELING IT OUT AND MANIPULATING H.W.D.

ROB'S WIFE [ GIVE HER PROPS FOR ME PLEASE, ROB ] AND CYRIACUS ARE RIGHT. WE'RE USING SIMILAR AND SOMETIMES DIFFERENT NOMENCLATURE FOR IDEAS WHICH ARE SOMETIMES RADICALLY INCONGRUENT TO EACH OTHER. SO LET US RETURN TO THE BEGINNING TO SEE WHERE OUR DIFFERENCES START AND PERPETUATE OUTWARDS IN ORDER TO FACILITATE BETTER UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN US ALL.

AS I HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIMES BEFORE, THE MORE COMMON SWORD AND HAMMER EXPRESSION ISN'T A SEQUENCE FOR ME OR MY STUDENTS...IT'S SOMETHING WE COVER IN PRE-WHITE LEVEL "A" ISOLATED SPARRING. OUR NEWEST NOOBS LEARN THIS TECH EARLY ON. THESE LESSONS ARE QUICKLY SOAKED INTO OUR NEWBS, ESPECIALLY IN OUR "CARDINAL DIRECTIONS" AND 'BULL IN THE RING" SPARRING DRILLS. THERE IS NOTHING WHATSOEVER EXCEPTIONAL OR SPECIAL TO US ABOUT THIS COMBO OTHER THAN WHAT WE FIND IN STRAIGHTFORWARD SPARRING.

WE DO NOT LET NOOBS CHOP EACH OTHER IN THE THROAT W/O PROTECTION, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE GONNA SCREAM. LOL. WE GEAR EM UP AND ALLOW MODERATE CHOPS TO THE TOP OF THE CHEST AND NEAR THE TRACHEA. THEN WE SLAP ON FOOTBALL NECK FOAM PROTECTION AND WE GO TO THE THROAT FOR REAL. THE RESULTS ARE INSTANT AND EDUCATIONAL. WITHOUT PROTECTION OR WITH LESS PROTECTION, PEOPLE JERK BACK AND AWAY FROM THE NECK STRIKE ALOT INSTINCTIVELY. HOWEVER THE GROIN ISN'T PRESENTED AS A RIPE TARGET AS MUCH AS SOME THINK IT MIGHT BE, SO WE ACTUALLY DOUBLE UP ON SAME SIDE ATTACKS AND FOLLOW THROUGH WITH LEFT-RIGHT HANDSWORD-HAMMERFIST COMBOS OR HAMMERFIST-HANDSWORD COMBOS AS NEEDED. FURTHER, WE PUT OUR NOOBS AND EVERYONE ELSE IN "SITUATIONS" AND TELL THEM TO USE A SPECIFIC TECH OR SEQUENCE TO ESCAPE [ THIS IS PART OF "ISOLATED SPARRING " FOR US ]. YOU MIGHT BE PUT IN A UNDERHOOKING POWER HALF NELSON FROM THE FLANK...AND GOTTA ESCAPE AND USE SWORD AND HAMMER IN THE PROCESS OF ESCAPING AND FINISHING YOUR PARTNER.

SPARRING WITH THIS COMBO ON MY OWN IS HOW I CAME TO THE WHIPPING HAMMERFIST TO THE SOLAR PLEXUS/DROP HANDSWORD ON THE JUNCTURE OF THE CRANIUM AND NECK COMBO. I PASSED IT ON TO MY COACHES AND STUDENTS

ANOTHER THING: I FOUND ON THE STREET, EVEN WHEN SLAP BOXING WITH MY FRIENDS...MOST PEOPLE DON'T DEFEND THE THROAT PER SE FROM ATTACKS. A SINGLE STANK-FUNK-NASTY HANDSWORD TO THE THROAT ANYWHERE OFTENTIMES ENDS THE CONFRONTATION EVEN WHEN SLAP BOXING. SAME FOR MOST OTHER MARTIAL ARTISTS...EXCEPT FOR GOOD HAPKIDO GUYS, MUAY THAI GUYS AND GRAPPLERS. MT CLINCH WORK MAKES MANY MT GUYS INSTINCTIVELY PROTECT FROM THROAT STRIKES, AND GRAPPLERS DEFEND STRIKES LIKE THEY'RE CHOKE OR GRAB ATTEMPTS. NOT ALWAYS SUCCESSFUL BUT MUCH BETTER THAN THE AVERAGE MARTIAL ARTIST. HAPKIDO GUYS BLEND ESSENTIALLY TKD+AIKIDO+JUDO AND ARE VERY COMFY WITH DEFENDING NECK CHOPS [ TKD ] AND ALL FORMS OF COLLAR GRABS HOLDS AND SUBS [ AIKIDO+JUDO ].

DO YOU TEACH YOUR STUDENTS TO SPAR WITH HANDSWORDS AND HAMMERFISTS TO THE CARDINAL DIRECTIONS AND IN 'BULL IN THE RING' LIKE SPARRING DRILLS? IF SO...AT WHAT RANK DO YOU DO SO? AND WHAT DIFFERENCES DO YOU DRAW BETWEEN SPARRING WITH THIS COMBO AND THE ACTUAL SWORD AND HAMMER SEQUENCE AS IS TAUGHT IN YOUR SCHOOL?

My responses are the bolded underlined italicized portions.

 

[ATACX GYM]

With Kenpo: I spent an entire class working just that. I picked some basic, lower belt techniques to use. I had everyone put their right hand in their belt. We simply adapted using our left hand to block, or parry, or we'd simply avoid by stepping back, or up, on a 45. It certainly made everyone think.

With Arnis: As I said earlier, we have right v. right drills, right v.left, left v. right, and left v. left. I'd simply adapt and make the best of it. Given the fact that you need 2 hands to make alot of the stuff work, alot of the locks and disarms will probably be a moot point.

Cool I see ya. Good points.

 

[Thesemindz]

Ras, you ask if we teach our students to spar with just the handswords and hammerfists or do bull in the ring (which we called tiger in the cage) type drills. Definitely. I have my students do this with a lot of their material. Delayed Sword? Try sparring using only hard blocks, handswords, and front kicks. Attacking Mace? That's just a straight cross counter. If you can't do that in some kind of live training activity, you probably can't do it in an ambush scenario either. I'm not saying it has to be traditional "karate style" sparring, but there should be some kind of unscripted, dynamic activity practiced against active resistance. To be fair, I've known several schools that didn't practice any live training AT ALL that still produced effective self defense practitioners, but I'm a big believer in gradually introducing live training as the student advances in skill and ability, ultimately culminating in fully integrated "anything goes" type combat-like activities.

I think another important point to keep in mind is where this technique is taught in your curriculum. I teach this technique about an hour into my student's training. This is their third technique and is part of what could be considered a "combat module" revolving around a series of flank grabs. I'm still teaching them how to put their hands on someone and where to stand and what the difference is between a straight arm and a bent arm and how grabbing the shoulder at different places (top, front, side) and different ranges changes the context of the scenario in specific ways. We're not ready to "spar" yet, because they're still learning their right from their left. Eventually we get to that stage of their training, but I take a gradual, progressive, layered approach.

You also mentioned the "demographics" of the student base. This is something I know you and I have discussed in detail, but for the purpose of this forum discussion I'll reiterate my position here. I often work with civilians who, prior to stepping on my floor, have little or no experience with violence AT ALL, or often even any athletic activity, and I have to "break" them to the training. We get around to the fighting, but I have to start by slowly acclimating them to the training environment, the contact, and the stimulus. I've lost students in the past by moving too quickly to a dynamic stage, and so now my student's instruction is heavily front loaded with static training to develop basics, structure, and contact conditioning. Even from the beginning we are doing some form of dynamic or live training, even in the very first intro class, but it is heavily structured and we slowly introduce new elements and fewer constraints. Like I've said, they'll end up fighting at all ranges and levels, hard, but we take the slow and steady road. I'm not saying your method doesn't work too, just that my method is different in some specific ways.


-Rob

 

[MJS]

LOL...that post is getting long Ras. I'm going to copy/paste your latest replies here, and reply.

1) PERHAPS I'M NOT MAKING MYSELF AS CLEAR AS I'D LIKE TO DUE TO POOR WORD SELECTION. I APOLOGIZE THEN. I DON'T ASSUME THAT THE PUNCH WILL ALWAYS COME. I ASSUME THAT THERE IS A REASONABLE THREAT OF OR REALITY OF AGGRESSION UPON OURSELVES AND WHATEVER THE SCENARIO WE NEED TO PUT OURSELVES IN CONTROL OF IT WHILE ELIMINATING SAME FOR THE BAD GUY. THAT INCLUDES PSYCHOLOGICAL INTIMIDATION...AND THAT'S ALL THE MORE REASON TO NOT BURN INTO OUR REFLEXES THE AUTOMATIC RESPONSE OF HANDSWORD TO NECK-HAMMERFIST THE NADS. YOU'RE RIGHT...NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE SPEND TIME IN WHAT YOU CALL THE "BEFORE" AND "AFTER" PHASES, FOCUSING MOSTLY ON THE "DURING". WELL, I BUILD INTO MY "DURING" THE CAPACITY TO FURTHER PROPERLY ANALYZE WHAT'S GOING ON WITHOUT SACRFICING AN OUNCE OF COMBAT EFFICACY.

WHAT I MEAN, MY FRIEND, IS THAT WHATEVER THE OFFENSIVE IS? OUR FIRST REACTIONS SHOULD NUETER IT. THE COVER AND SPIN FREES YOU OF THE GRAB, TAKES YOU OUT OF DIRECT LINE OF ATTACK FOR ANY HAND HELD WEAPON WHEN YOU SPIN OUTSIDE AND ALLOWS YOU TO ENGAGE AND DEFEND AGAINST SAID WEAPON IMMEDIATELY WHEN YOU SPIN INSIDE, AND ON THE GROUND YOU'RE ABLE TO NUETER FURTHER OFFENSIVES AND DROP YOUR OPPONENT WHILE PUTTING YOURSELF IN A SOLID LARGELY SAFE POSITION TO COUNTERATTACK. ALL OF THIS WITH A SINGLE MOVE. AND THAT SINGLE MOVE WAS CHOSEN BECAUSE WE ARE AWARE OF THE FACTORS THAT CAN HAPPEN IN CQC AND I TOOK THE TIME TO CONSIDER HIGH PERCENTAGE DEFENSES WHICH ARE THEMSELVES ATTACKS YET ARE SO SIMPLE EVEN UNCOORDINATED COMPLETE NOOBS CAN LEARN IT QUICKLY AND EFFICIENTLY. THEN I GOT ON THE MAT MYSELF AND WORKED IT OUT PHYSICALLY UNTIL I GOT THE INGREDIENTS RIGHT, AND CAME UP WITH THE RESULT THAT I WANTED...AND I KEPT THE WHOLE PROCESS TOP TO BOTTOM. WRITTEN NOTES AND EVERYTHING.

I FAIL TO SEE SUCH CONSIDERATIONS BUILT INTO THE EXECUTION OF THE MORE COMMON VERSION OF SWORD AND HAMMER. I'M NOT SAYING THAT TEACHERS LIKE YOU AND SAY ROB DON'T HAVE THOSE CONSIDERATIONS BUILT INTO YOUR CLASS LESSONS ON THIS AND OTHER SEQUENCES, WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT I DON'T SEE THESE CONCERNS BUILT INTO THE SEQUENCE ITSELF. YOU SEE ME? MY FIRST RESPONSE REFLECTS MY AWARENESS OF THIS SITUATION. IN EVERY SINGLE SEQUENCE I HAVE, THIS CONSIDERATION IS BUILT INTO IT. SOMETIMES IT'S MORE SUBTLE THAN OTHERS, BUT IN THE ACTUAL SEQUENCE OF MOVEMENTS THAT I TEACH-- ALL OF THEM--I HAVE THIS CONSIDERATION IN MIND

1) **No problem...lol. Thats the problem with the net...things are often lost in translation. Now, going on what you just said, didn't Doc talk about this in one of his posts, over at KT I believe? The part when he said that his students aren't allowed to talk about 'what ifs' until way later. If I'm reading him right, it sounds to me that whatever it is that he's doing, nullifies any 'what if, even if' from the bad guy. Furthermore, it seems like he'd address the stuff you're talking about later on.**

2) THE FACT THAT I INTRO THE PUNCH IMMEDIATELY DOESN'T MEAN THAT I'M GOING FROM 1 DIRECTLY TO 10, WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT I'M PRESENTING A COMPLETE SCENARIO FROM DAY ONE TO BE TRAINED AGAINST. WE BREAK DOWN OUR RESPONSES AGAINST THE GRAB AND PUNCH WITH THE COVER AND SPIN FIRST. WE DON'T EVEN PROGRESS TO THE NEXT MOVES UNTIL YOU'RE HIT FIRST, RECOVER, AND THEN SPIN. THAT IS THE MOST ESSENTIAL ASPECT OF THE SEQUENCE. WE COVER BEING PULLED INTO THE PUNCH AND JUST GOING WITH OUR SWORD AND HAMMER THERE AS WELL AS SPINNING AWAY AFTER WE'RE CRACKED FROM THE REAR AND BEING PUSHED AWAY BY BODY PRESSURE AND PUNCHES. WE FOLLOW A VERY SPECIFIC PROGRESSION AND WE COVER ALL OF THE PRIMARY STEPS IN BETWEEN...BUT WE PRESENT A COMPLETE RESPONSE. WE JUST DO SO, AS YOU STATED, EARLIER THAN YOU DO. THAT'S A MATTER OF TRAINING PREFERENCE AND TRAINING PARADIGM, NOT A LACK IN TRAINING QUALITY. I'M SURE YOU TEACH YOUR MORE SLOWLY PACED METHOD WELL, AND I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT I TEACH MINE VERY WELL INDEED. AS LONG AS THE RESULT IS A FULLY FUNCTIONAL STUDENT? I DON'T SEE TOO MUCH TO QUIBBLE ABOUT.

2) **Not sure if I hit this in my last reply....its getting confusing...lol...but anyways....ok, I see what you're saying...I think...lol.**

3) KATAS ARE COMPRISED OF MULTIPLE MOVEMENTS AND OFTENTIMES DEMANDING, EXACTING STANCES. IN SHORT ONE...HOW OFTEN DO WE HAVE TO STOP AND REALIGN FOOT AND HEEL POSITIONING OF STUDENTS AS THEY'RE PERFORMING THE KATA? HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO FUSS ABOUT FLAPPING ELBOWS AND IMPROPERLY COUCHED FISTS BY THE HIPS? HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TELL THEM TO RELAX AND TRUST THEIR BODIES, DON'T BE SO ROBOTIC AND OVERTHING EACH MOVE? HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO REMIND THEM WHICH WAY TO TURN, WHICH FOOT TO STEP BACK WITH, TO TURN THEIR HEADS TO LOOK AT THE DIRECTION THEY'RE GOING AND VISUALLY CUE UP THEIR IMAGINARY FOE BEFORE THEY EXECUTE THEIR BLOCKS? HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TELL THEM TO BLOCK WITH AUTHORITY...DON'T JUST PUT YOUR HAND ARM IN THE AIR? I KNOW YOU FEEL ME.

EVEN SHORT ONE IS COMPRISED OF DIFFERENT BLOCKS TO THE CARDINAL DIRECTIONS AND COMBINED WITH A SENSE OF SPATIAL AWARENESS WHICH SHOULD RETURN YOU VERY NEAR TO THE SPOT THAT YOU STARTED YOUR KATA AT WHEN YOU'RE DONE. YES THEY TEACH SPECIFIC THINGS. MY SEQUENCE HAS MOVEMENTS ABOUT EQUIVALENT IN NUMBER TO SHORT 1. IT TEACHES A SPECIFIC THING. IT RETURNS YOU TO THE SPOT YOU STARTED AT [ STANDING ]. MY SEQUENCES ARE NO MORE GOING FROM 1-10 THAN LEARNING SHORT ONE TAKES SOMEONE FROM 1-10.

PLEASE LOOK AT MY 15 ROUND PROGRESSIONS WHEREIN WE GET IN LOTSA HIGH QUALITY REPS AND COMBINE THEM WITH THE VIDEO REGARDING THE INSIDE BLOCK THAT I SHOWED. I CAN LITERALLY FIND A KID AND HAVE A KID LIKE 10 YEARS OLD OR WHATEVER DO WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IN UNDER 3 MINUTES' TIME. NOT KIDDING, NO JOKE. I WILL FILM IT. WHENEVER I DO MY VIDEOS AT THE PARK? KIDS COME UP AND ASK ME ABOUT WHAT I'M DOING. I'LL CORRAL ONE OF THOSE KIDS AND PROVE TO YOU WHAT I MEAN BY MY PROGRESSIONS, MY FRIEND MJS. IT'S REALLY REALLY NOT HARD OR OVERLOADING. IT'S MERELY A DIFFERENCE IN TRAINING PARADIGM AND MAYBE DEMOGRAPHICS TOO. MAYBE THE PEOPLE I TEACH ARE MORE ATHLETIC AND MORE FAMILIAR WITH COMBAT THAN THE PEOPLE YOU TEACH. IDK. REGARDLESS? NEXT WEEK I WILL PUT UP VIDEO SHOWING YOU HOW EASILY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT CAN BE DONE.

3)**True, but Short 1 is probably the basic of the basic, teaching defense only, stepping back, with no offense. Then we move to the others, in which we see forward movement, blocking, etc. This is kinda where I was going with that....comparing it to taking smaller steps.**

4) PREEMPTIVE STRIKES AREN'T THAT HARD...WE AGREE...DEPENDENT UPON WHEN THE PREEMPTIVE STRIKE IS TO TAKE PLACE AND WHAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE PREEMPTIVE. FOR INSTANCE, I HAVE A UNDERHOOK AND THROAT STRIKE IN MY CAPTURED STORM VARIANT WHICH PREEMPTIVELY STOPS ANY ATTACK FROM THE FAR ARM BY CANCELING IT OUT AND MANIPULATING H.W.D.

ROB'S WIFE [ GIVE HER PROPS FOR ME PLEASE, ROB ] AND CYRIACUS ARE RIGHT. WE'RE USING SIMILAR AND SOMETIMES DIFFERENT NOMENCLATURE FOR IDEAS WHICH ARE SOMETIMES RADICALLY INCONGRUENT TO EACH OTHER. SO LET US RETURN TO THE BEGINNING TO SEE WHERE OUR DIFFERENCES START AND PERPETUATE OUTWARDS IN ORDER TO FACILITATE BETTER UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN US ALL.

AS I HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIMES BEFORE, THE MORE COMMON SWORD AND HAMMER EXPRESSION ISN'T A SEQUENCE FOR ME OR MY STUDENTS...IT'S SOMETHING WE COVER IN PRE-WHITE LEVEL "A" ISOLATED SPARRING. OUR NEWEST NOOBS LEARN THIS TECH EARLY ON. THESE LESSONS ARE QUICKLY SOAKED INTO OUR NEWBS, ESPECIALLY IN OUR "CARDINAL DIRECTIONS" AND 'BULL IN THE RING" SPARRING DRILLS. THERE IS NOTHING WHATSOEVER EXCEPTIONAL OR SPECIAL TO US ABOUT THIS COMBO OTHER THAN WHAT WE FIND IN STRAIGHTFORWARD SPARRING.

WE DO NOT LET NOOBS CHOP EACH OTHER IN THE THROAT W/O PROTECTION, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE GONNA SCREAM. LOL. WE GEAR EM UP AND ALLOW MODERATE CHOPS TO THE TOP OF THE CHEST AND NEAR THE TRACHEA. THEN WE SLAP ON FOOTBALL NECK FOAM PROTECTION AND WE GO TO THE THROAT FOR REAL. THE RESULTS ARE INSTANT AND EDUCATIONAL. WITHOUT PROTECTION OR WITH LESS PROTECTION, PEOPLE JERK BACK AND AWAY FROM THE NECK STRIKE ALOT INSTINCTIVELY. HOWEVER THE GROIN ISN'T PRESENTED AS A RIPE TARGET AS MUCH AS SOME THINK IT MIGHT BE, SO WE ACTUALLY DOUBLE UP ON SAME SIDE ATTACKS AND FOLLOW THROUGH WITH LEFT-RIGHT HANDSWORD-HAMMERFIST COMBOS OR HAMMERFIST-HANDSWORD COMBOS AS NEEDED. FURTHER, WE PUT OUR NOOBS AND EVERYONE ELSE IN "SITUATIONS" AND TELL THEM TO USE A SPECIFIC TECH OR SEQUENCE TO ESCAPE [ THIS IS PART OF "ISOLATED SPARRING " FOR US ]. YOU MIGHT BE PUT IN A UNDERHOOKING POWER HALF NELSON FROM THE FLANK...AND GOTTA ESCAPE AND USE SWORD AND HAMMER IN THE PROCESS OF ESCAPING AND FINISHING YOUR PARTNER.

SPARRING WITH THIS COMBO ON MY OWN IS HOW I CAME TO THE WHIPPING HAMMERFIST TO THE SOLAR PLEXUS/DROP HANDSWORD ON THE JUNCTURE OF THE CRANIUM AND NECK COMBO. I PASSED IT ON TO MY COACHES AND STUDENTS

ANOTHER THING: I FOUND ON THE STREET, EVEN WHEN SLAP BOXING WITH MY FRIENDS...MOST PEOPLE DON'T DEFEND THE THROAT PER SE FROM ATTACKS. A SINGLE STANK-FUNK-NASTY HANDSWORD TO THE THROAT ANYWHERE OFTENTIMES ENDS THE CONFRONTATION EVEN WHEN SLAP BOXING. SAME FOR MOST OTHER MARTIAL ARTISTS...EXCEPT FOR GOOD HAPKIDO GUYS, MUAY THAI GUYS AND GRAPPLERS. MT CLINCH WORK MAKES MANY MT GUYS INSTINCTIVELY PROTECT FROM THROAT STRIKES, AND GRAPPLERS DEFEND STRIKES LIKE THEY'RE CHOKE OR GRAB ATTEMPTS. NOT ALWAYS SUCCESSFUL BUT MUCH BETTER THAN THE AVERAGE MARTIAL ARTIST. HAPKIDO GUYS BLEND ESSENTIALLY TKD+AIKIDO+JUDO AND ARE VERY COMFY WITH DEFENDING NECK CHOPS [ TKD ] AND ALL FORMS OF COLLAR GRABS HOLDS AND SUBS [ AIKIDO+JUDO ].

DO YOU TEACH YOUR STUDENTS TO SPAR WITH HANDSWORDS AND HAMMERFISTS TO THE CARDINAL DIRECTIONS AND IN 'BULL IN THE RING' LIKE SPARRING DRILLS? IF SO...AT WHAT RANK DO YOU DO SO? AND WHAT DIFFERENCES DO YOU DRAW BETWEEN SPARRING WITH THIS COMBO AND THE ACTUAL SWORD AND HAMMER SEQUENCE AS IS TAUGHT IN YOUR SCHOOL?

4) **I'm going to do this one from top down. Keep in mind, (and I think our terms may be differing here) but I'm not talking about a preset SD technique, I'm talking about: ex: badguy follows you to the parking lot, accusing you of cutting him off in traffic. You try to verbally defuse, its not working. Badguy is yelling, swearing, fists/teeth clenched, and moving towards you. Once he gets within arms reach, you blast him with a palm to the face, kick to the nuts, shin, etc. Again, I'm not calling that a 'technique' per se, but a basic.

Our 'sparring' again, may be differing here. Sparring not in the sense of trading back and forth with strikes, ie: typical Karate type sparring. I'm talking about how Chris and I do it. I'll start with a tech and at some point, the other guy will try to counter, throw another attack, etc. *note: I do feel that sparring is important***

 

[Josh Oakley]

Tip for ease of readability: use the quote function more. It eliminates the need for caps and makes the discussion easier to follow.

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[ATACX GYM]

So if the BG is out of range for the neck shot and rugged up...what if you pin the hand to your shoulder, execute a forearm shiver of a upward block to the BG's left forearm, merge that upward forearm shiver of a block into a right outward handsword block while stepping back into NB with your right foot, and execute a hammerfist to the BG's bicep or forearm if he's still holding on to you after the right outward handsword?

You can do this [ with your left hand prepped to defend the incoming right punch at some point ] while stepping forward too.

Is that Sword and Hammer? What lessons could it teach, whether it's Sword and Hammer to you or not?

 

[MJS]

IMO, we could 'what if' this 'til we're blue in the face, and frankly it seems we're doing that already..lol...but anyways...as Clyde says...environment and target availability dictate our actions...so...really, theres no way to determine what we're going to do, until the situation starts to unfold.

 

[Flying Crane]

So if the BG is out of range for the neck shot and rugged up...what if you pin the hand to your shoulder, execute a forearm shiver of a upward block to the BG's left forearm, merge that upward forearm shiver of a block into a right outward handsword block while stepping back into NB with your right foot, and execute a hammerfist to the BG's bicep or forearm if he's still holding on to you after the right outward handsword?

You can do this [ with your left hand prepped to defend the incoming right punch at some point ] while stepping forward too.

Is that Sword and Hammer? What lessons could it teach, whether it's Sword and Hammer to you or not?

honestly, it sounds really complicated. Why not just hit the guy? seriously. All this hand pinning, forearm shivering block step to a bow and hammerfist etc., it just goes into the realm of lots of setup just to hit the guy. So just hit the guy and eliminate all the unnecessary setup. It's just not necessary, and if you construct techniques that are reliant on all that strategy and setup, I'd say it's very unlikely to really work. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.

I went back late in the discussion and watched the original videos, and I see that this Sword and Hammer is very similar, essentially the same, as Tracy's Attacking Circle. I'm generally on the forum at work, and video is blocked here.

My understanding of the Tracy technique is that it is less a real SD tech and more of just introducing the concept of stepping on the clock as a directional reference. But hey, I can see it being applied against a real attack. The tech really has three things: a step to the badguy to bridge the gap, a knifehand to the throat, and a hammerfist to the nuts. Simple and straight forward. Why in the name of all that is holy does it need to be turned into something so insanley complicated? Jeezuz hammurabi krist, man. Just drive in and hit the guy as prescribed and make it count. It's one of the simple techs that might actually have a snowball's chance in hell of working. All this re-write, all the extra add-ons in the "what-ifs", all the re-building, it's stuff that looks good on paper but it smacks of fantasy.

I don't get it. I realize this thread is not about making sure that I "get it". But that's my comment on all this. I just don't get it.

 

[MJS]

honestly, it sounds really complicated. Why not just hit the guy? seriously. All this hand pinning, forearm shivering block step to a bow and hammerfist etc., it just goes into the realm of lots of setup just to hit the guy. So just hit the guy and eliminate all the unnecessary setup. It's just not necessary, and if you construct techniques that are reliant on all that strategy and setup, I'd say it's very unlikely to really work. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.

I went back late in the discussion and watched the original videos, and I see that this Sword and Hammer is very similar, essentially the same, as Tracy's Attacking Circle. I'm generally on the forum at work, and video is blocked here.

My understanding of the Tracy technique is that it is less a real SD tech and more of just introducing the concept of stepping on the clock as a directional reference. But hey, I can see it being applied against a real attack. The tech really has three things: a step to the badguy to bridge the gap, a knifehand to the throat, and a hammerfist to the nuts. Simple and straight forward. Why in the name of all that is holy does it need to be turned into something so insanley complicated? Jeezuz hammurabi krist, man. Just drive in and hit the guy as prescribed and make it count. It's one of the simple techs that might actually have a snowball's chance in hell of working. All this re-write, all the extra add-ons in the "what-ifs", all the re-building, it's stuff that looks good on paper but it smacks of fantasy.

I don't get it. I realize this thread is not about making sure that I "get it". But that's my comment on all this. I just don't get it.

I read this post, and I thought about your Pek Choi/Chuin Choi example you made earlier. I dont know...why is simplicty such a foreign concept in Kenpo? And don't feel bad Mike....I just don't get it either.

 

[Twin Fist]

a lot of the tendancy to complexity comes from the way Ed Parker shaped the techniques. he made a science out of what was, essentially, dirty fighting. Key word there being "science". So, human nature being what it is, his students tried to take it one step further. So now you have people trying to teach people how to fight by teaching them physics.

In comparison, kajukenbo, which evolved from the hawaiian kenpo BEFORE EPAK is much less dependent on long elaborate chains of techniques. But if you watch kaju, and EPAK, you will see the simularities in the WAY they move.

 

[Josh Oakley]

I personally suspect that the long chain attacks are not unaffected by the concepts of marketing. I remember that William K.S. Chow was quoted in response to his feelings on long combos as saying: "why?"

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[seasoned]

honestly, it sounds really complicated. Why not just hit the guy?

This is the most sensible thing I have heard so far. It really should not be that complicated.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I used to think that training say the inside blocks was specific only to punches...until my GM told me at age 8 that this was not so. He then demonstrated to me that my very same inside block could and did stop a knife thrust, a stick attack, and both an ATTEMPTED lapel grab aaaand broke down the structure of an SUCCESSFUL lapel grab [ when combined with proper footwork and a solid base]. He showed me how the double lapel sweeping parry also broke the 2 handed throat strangle. It clicked for me right then. I got it. As a child. It's hard for me to accept that intelligent adults don't get it now.


Make no mistake about it. You either perceive the multiple uses of a single tech or you don't. If you perceive these multiple uses? Your training model changes in direct accordance with the degree of your perception and application of multiple uses. You don't have to do stuff exactly like I do...but you won't do things like you previously did. You have evolved, become more efficient, become simpler, more direct...and vastly amplified your combat options,skill and ability; merely by opening up your mind.

This shows to me you still aren't following the criticism as this comment has nothing to do with what I am talking about.
Yes I percieve the multiple uses of a single technique as well as the multiple principles and tactics that combine to make similar techniques. But yours is not similar to the original in any way except in the fists that you use. And fists alone do not make a technique. I could punch someone with a hammer fist and shuto them in the neck or face and that wouldn't make my technique sowrd and hammer unless I was applying the original principles of the lesson. What you are talking about here is apparent to everyone and not the source of the criticism. Its not that you can't modify a technique, its that you can't make as many changes as you have made and not end up doing a different technique.

 

[MJS]

it's not a matter of NOT grasping where you're coming from. I've been where you guys are. The difference is that I've continued to train and research and discovered that some of the previous beliefs I had that parallel yours are factually untrue and I made the mental adjustment...so now I no longer am confined by the inaccuracies of some of my previous beliefs. Doc's explanation about Big Red and what happened to the commercial vehicle of Motion Kenpo makes perfect sense to me...especially since it's literally backed up in black and white by Mr. Parker's own hand. I also recall my GM and other Elders debating some of these very points when I was a child growing up in the martial arts.

I used to think that training say the inside blocks was specific only to punches...until my GM told me at age 8 that this was not so. He then demonstrated to me that my very same inside block could and did stop a knife thrust, a stick attack, and both an ATTEMPTED lapel grab aaaand broke down the structure of an SUCCESSFUL lapel grab [ when combined with proper footwork and a solid base]. He showed me how the double lapel sweeping parry also broke the 2 handed throat strangle. It clicked for me right then. I got it. As a child. It's hard for me to accept that intelligent adults don't get it now.

Make no mistake about it. You either perceive the multiple uses of a single tech or you don't. If you perceive these multiple uses? Your training model changes in direct accordance with the degree of your perception and application of multiple uses. You don't have to do stuff exactly like I do...but you won't do things like you previously did. You have evolved, become more efficient, become simpler, more direct...and vastly amplified your combat options,skill and ability; merely by opening up your mind.

Like one of my Gym sayings goes...

IF YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND? YOU CHANGE YOUR WAYS...

This shows to me you still aren't following the criticism as this comment has nothing to do with what I am talking about.
Yes I percieve the multiple uses of a single technique as well as the multiple principles and tactics that combine to make similar techniques. But yours is not similar to the original in any way except in the fists that you use. And fists alone do not make a technique. I could punch someone with a hammer fist and shuto them in the neck or face and that wouldn't make my technique sowrd and hammer unless I was applying the original principles of the lesson. What you are talking about here is apparent to everyone and not the source of the criticism. Its not that you can't modify a technique, its that you can't make as many changes as you have made and not end up doing a different technique.

I have to go with HK here. As for the bold part...I've been saying that in numerous posts. A punch, a kick, a block...those, IMHO, are what I call basics. A technique, is a series of basics that are either preset or that you put together, on the fly, to address the situation presented.

As for the underlined part....yup, been sayin' that too and agree with what you said 100%.

 

[Chris Parker]

So basically, without going back to the mess of an answer you gave to my last post a few pages back, Ras, we've ended up with Himura and MJS repeating what I said at the beginning of this, back on page one.... what you're doing, whether effective, powerful, flawed, or perfect, simply bears almost no resemblance to Sword and Hammer as taught in pretty much every school, and the version you yourself are specifically putting up as a contrast. It's just too different in far too many ways. And if you don't see that, then you just don't get the structure of martial arts, or how they work. You may be able to put together what you feel are effective combinations, but that's about it.

Do you understand what we're saying yet?