Sword and hammer pt. 1 and 2

[Thesemindz]

If the throat is out of range I would adjust to another centerline target, most likely the "solar plexus." As to the groin strike, part of being able to hit it is training to hit it. We wear a cup when we train, and we practice hitting our targets. Aside from that, in the technique I teach the first strike is intended to cause the opponent to arch up and back, projecting the groin forward and making it easier to strike, and to cause him to look away from your target area, making the strike more difficult to defend. But let's say he does see it coming, even a simple motion towards the groin is likely to cause a large reflexive defensive flinch. Go try to hit your buddy in the groin, his whole body will convulse away from the strike and he'll probably jump away. It's both an instinctual response and a learned behavior. That movement will create secondary opportunities to attack. So either I chop his throat and rack him, or he breaks his stance and jumps away. Either way he's not sucker punching me anymore. The technique as I teach it is designed to work somehow whether the specific strikes land or not, and also has defenses against the opponent's possible follow ups built in. As to other alternate targets, I've actually altered many of the groin strikes I was taught to bladder strikes in my own method. I prefer the bladder because it is more likely to break the opponent's stance, is easier to strike, and still hurts like hell. -Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

Also Twin Fist, for what it's worth I can frequently remember at least the pivotal moments of fights hit for hit, even years after the fact. I may not consciously decide what to do in the moment, but that doesn't mean I don't remember what I did afterwords. So I don't know what the "no one can" statement is based on. -Rob

 

[ATACX GYM]

If the throat is out of range I would adjust to another centerline target, most likely the "solar plexus." As to the groin strike, part of being able to hit it is training to hit it. We wear a cup when we train, and we practice hitting our targets. Aside from that, in the technique I teach the first strike is intended to cause the opponent to arch up and back, projecting the groin forward and making it easier to strike, and to cause him to look away from your target area, making the strike more difficult to defend. But let's say he does see it coming, even a simple motion towards the groin is likely to cause a large reflexive defensive flinch. Go try to hit your buddy in the groin, his whole body will convulse away from the strike and he'll probably jump away. It's both an instinctual response and a learned behavior. That movement will create secondary opportunities to attack. So either I chop his throat and rack him, or he breaks his stance and jumps away. Either way he's not sucker punching me anymore. The technique as I teach it is designed to work somehow whether the specific strikes land or not, and also has defenses against the opponent's possible follow ups built in. As to other alternate targets, I've actually altered many of the groin strikes I was taught to bladder strikes in my own method. I prefer the bladder because it is more likely to break the opponent's stance, is easier to strike, and still hurts like hell. -Rob

Good answer, man. Of course,most of your answers are good answers.

Being a short brutha from the neighborhood, I can say that I've used a variant of this sequence. a big gu by the name of June Bug was rough housing with my one day some years ago. He snuck up from the back [ I saw him but let him think he was getting over ] and he tried to tackle me. I spun on him, and in the ensuing scramble, he latched onto my shoulder with his left hand.

June is 6'4, 220 lbs. of reformed penitentiary muscle. I'm 5'7" and at the time weighed only 147 pounds. Due to the angle of the scramble and the fact that he had his hand up boxing style by his face, the neck was no option.

I handsworded his bicep with a pretty sharp pop on it, and followed immediately with a hammerfist to the forearm...the first alternative target option I present to my Pre-White Lvl A [ newest of the noobs ] students. He gasped in pain and reflexively released his hold. I laughingly asked him if he was okay and we laughed about it.

 

[Cyriacus]

Let's try something less acrimonious but still germane to the Sword and Hammer subject.

A couple of questions:

How likely is the hammerfist to actual hit the scrotum of the male offender [ no disrespect ladies, a Falcon Punch to the nethers is no bowl of joy for either sex...] ? What would you do to ensure that the hammerfist actually hits the sack as opposed to any other body part? Would you substitute another area, like the bladder? If so...what would be the looked for effect of this target substitution and why would you substitute this target?

What if the throat is too far away cuz the BG's too tall or maybe he has a heavy jacket and scarf on...and you're a Yellow Belt being grabbed by the flank?

Let's try to make this thread make a turn for the less arsenic. Whaddya say?

It substitute the Groin Strike since once I was hit in the Groin straight on, similar to how the Hammerfist would (Angle Wise. It was a straight hit with a slight upward arc). The only effect it had was surprise. And a slight sore later, because impact is impact. But ultimately when I started doing MA, I decided not to have faith in hits to the Groin.

Grabs and Upward Hand Strikes (Like, directly up), sure.

Id substitute it for a hit to the True Ribs; Assuming its Your Right Hand, the Left Ribs.
Followed by exiting out.

And if the Guys too tall and rugged up? Get better at Power Striking or switch to a Backfist.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Also Twin Fist, for what it's worth I can frequently remember at least the pivotal moments of fights hit for hit, even years after the fact. I may not consciously decide what to do in the moment, but that doesn't mean I don't remember what I did afterwords. So I don't know what the "no one can" statement is based on. -Rob

Doc and Jerry founded the BKF. Guess if some of my detractors are right...Doc isn't a martial artist and doesn't know the lessons of Kenpo. Doc can't teach, and stuff.

[video=youtube_share;OPe2692PsM8]http://youtu.be/OPe2692PsM8[/video]

GM Sullivan considers Sijo to be one of the most gifted martial artists--not fighter, MARTIAL ARTISTS--that he's ever known. Bruce Lee knew a thing or two about martial arts, and was likewise impressed with Sijo...as a MARTIAL ARTIST.

[video=youtube_share;-JB8JDZQYvY]http://youtu.be/-JB8JDZQYvY[/video]

Cliff Stewart isn't a martial artist and stuff, because Silat Gurus grown on trees.

Let us not allow our more promising discussion to be derailed by the cantankerous ignorance of some others.

 

[ATACX GYM]

It substitute the Groin Strike since once I was hit in the Groin straight on, similar to how the Hammerfist would (Angle Wise. It was a straight hit with a slight upward arc). The only effect it had was surprise. And a slight sore later, because impact is impact. But ultimately when I started doing MA, I decided not to have faith in hits to the Groin.

Grabs and Upward Hand Strikes (Like, directly up), sure.

Id substitute it for a hit to the True Ribs; Assuming its Your Right Hand, the Left Ribs.
Followed by exiting out.

And if the Guys too tall and rugged up? Get better at Power Striking or switch to a Backfist.

Good response man. Good response. But if you COULD NOT use another tech and HAD TO USE a handsword and hammerfist while you're grabbed by the shoulder or collar from the flank but the throat and groin WEREN'T targets...what targets would you choose? And how about doing some Power Striking with the Handsword and Hammerfist?

How about a Kenpo Bodywhip/Kinetic Chain handsword to the kidneys and a hammerfist to the hammerfist to the inner thigh or bladder?

 

[Cyriacus]

Good response man. Good response. But if you COULD NOT use another tech and HAD TO USE a handsword and hammerfist while you're grabbed by the shoulder or collar from the flank but the throat and groin WEREN'T targets...what targets would you choose? And how about doing some Power Striking with the Handsword and Hammerfist?

How about a Kenpo Bodywhip/Kinetic Chain handsword to the kidneys and a hammerfist to the hammerfist to the inner thigh or bladder?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Urinary_system.svg
Because I know for a fact I can hit the Ribs, but the Bladder is a smaller target.
If Youre gonna hit that low, You may as well fire it at the Floating Ribs. Its what - A 15cm difference? Roughly.

Therefore, Sternum and Ribs.
Wont be as effective as neck and ribs, but that goes without saying.

 

[ATACX GYM]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Urinary_system.svg
Because I know for a fact I can hit the Ribs, but the Bladder is a smaller target.
If Youre gonna hit that low, You may as well fire it at the Floating Ribs. Its what - A 15cm difference? Roughly.

Therefore, Sternum and Ribs.
Wont be as effective as neck and ribs, but that goes without saying.

Word well said man. I am a firm believer in body strikes, so I was just playing a little Devil's Advocate to keep the discussion going. Sternum with the handsword, ribs with the hammerfist?

 

[ATACX GYM]

We mandatorily run our techs from both sides and interchange hands...right left, left right,whatever. Do you guys work the tech only on the right side as frequently demo'd? do you throw say a RIGHT handsword and a LEFT hammerfist? would doing so exchange speed for power in your opinion?

 

[Cyriacus]

Word well said man. I am a firm believer in body strikes, so I was just playing a little Devil's Advocate to keep the discussion going. Sternum with the handsword, ribs with the hammerfist?

Correct - The Hammerfist will have a better chance of breaking ribs, whilst the Handsword will have a better chance of having some... Penetrating Kickback, or whatever the word is for being hit in the front and feeling it in the back.

We mandatorily run our techs from both sides and interchange hands...right left, left right,whatever. Do you guys work the tech only on the right side as frequently demo'd? do you throw say a RIGHT handsword and a LEFT hammerfist? would doing so exchange speed for power in your opinion?

Both sides.

If You were going to switch hands to the hammerfist, to begin with, You may as well do a Punch. But assuming Your Life depends on a Hammerfist, it can aptly be aimed for a fist blow to the Collarbone. The Handsword would have to be damn effective though, to make that work.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Correct - The Hammerfist will have a better chance of breaking ribs, whilst the Handsword will have a better chance of having some... Penetrating Kickback, or whatever the word is for being hit in the front and feeling it in the back.



Both sides.

If You were going to switch hands to the hammerfist, to begin with, You may as well do a Punch. But assuming Your Life depends on a Hammerfist, it can aptly be aimed for a fist blow to the Collarbone. The Handsword would have to be damn effective though, to make that work.

You know, a rear hand Body Whip of a hammerfist to the solar plexus can bend a guy over so bad that it's almost like you cut him in half. I have my lower belts do that and drop another sharp hammerfist on the juncture of neck and skull or dead center of the nape of the neck. It's a excellent warmup for our variant of Thundering Hammers...and it can be an exellent tool to bring a larger, out of range target into range. Hammerfist the sternum, drop the handsword on the neck with the other hand.

You can also fire a lead hand hammerfist to the sternum and use the recoil from the Body Whip/Kinetic Wave to fire the handsword to the now in range throat. Or if the neck is still out of reach? Go for the floating rib or kidneys or inner thigh with the handsword.

Now...does changing the targeting actually change the sequence itself? Is this sequence no long Sword and Hammer to you guys?

 

[Thesemindz]

That depends on what you mean when you say "Sword and Hammer." If you mean a technique where you use a striking combination including a handsword and a hammerfist, maybe it still is. But the names of the techniques represent a series of conceptual symbols in the minds of many EPAK and related stylists. So when you say "Sword and Hammer" to them, it immediately brings to mind a specific sequence of movements and related principles. That's part of the problem here Ras. You're using symbols (in the form of technique names) to represent one thing while it represents something different to your audience. It's like your using the word "dog" to refer to cats. Sure, they're both small furry house pets, but the words mean something specifically different. So you end up with a communication breakdown.

I don't use the name "Sword and Hammer." I call this technique "Hidden Strikes" which refers to the method of delivering the strikes. I've learned as many as five or six names for many of the kenpo techniques because I've trained in several different schools and I've had to learn the EPAK names so that I can converse with those practitioners. Ultimately, what you call the technique may or may not matter depending on whether you use the names as part of your method of instruction. Some people just call them "Purple Technique 1" and "Purple Technique 2."

Is your technique Sword and Hammer? Well, it is if you say it is. In your school with your students the only thing that matters is that you are consistent in your presentation. In discussions with practitioners outside your school using terms that already have clearly defined meanings in a way other than what is commonly accepted will always lead to understandable confusion. Communication is only possible because we share a common concept of the meaning of symbols. Absent that, it simply isn't.

Or in other words, "You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


-Rob

 

[MJS]

What I meant by "scripted scenario" is the position that too many take that the more common version of THE SWORD AND HAMMER is THEE SCENARIO and THEE SWORD AND HAMMER. Of course I don't denigrate the importance of scenarios...I use them in my techs. Lolollololol.

I totally agree with you that cramming stuff down a person's throat at too rapid a pace is absolutely more harmful than it's beneficial...but I never said or suggested such a thing in the first place. THIS is what I said and suggested:

[video=youtube_share;kEZ-zAUEkR4]http://youtu.be/kEZ-zAUEkR4[/video]

Can't watch YT at work. Anyways...I don't know man, but thats how it looked to me. I know I mentioned this same thing earlier.

 

[MJS]

I'm going to reply to a few segments of this post between Ras and Chris. My replies will have a * at the beginning and end, to make it easier..I think, as to who's saying what.




Right. Ras, try to listen here.



Ras, to be completely blunt, this is the core of your problems, and the absolute evidence that you are not in any way right. In the slightest. Let's demonstrate, as you seem rather ignorant of what, or even how a technique teaches it's lessons.

The lessons of EPAK Sword and Hammer are numerous, but some that are immediately apparent are as follows:
- When grabbed, capture the grabbing hand for psychological and physical control.

Grabbing the BG's hand doesn't give you psychological or physical control. He grabbed you in order to control you by locking you down into place for, pushing you away from, or pulling you in to the incoming blows that he's raining on you. Using your far hand to pin BG's hand to your shoulder simply means that you're unwise enough to remove your unencumbered limb from combat, thus opening up other lanes for the BG to attack and hurt you [ or his friends to do the same ] and removing your limb from the possibility of offensive strikes.

*I disagree Ras. It does give a psychological/physical control. The common response from the defender would be to try to pull away, not marry the badguys hands to your body. Its just like a weapon...the badguy is using that weapon for intimidation and control. Not saying that he wouldn't use it, but he's expecting compliance, not grabbing the weapon.*

MJS THE ONLY WAY THAT COULD BE TRUE IS IF THE BG ISN'T THROWING A PUNCH AT YOU WHEN HE GRABS YOU. IF YOU PIN HIS HAND ON YOUR SHOULDER WITH YOUR OFF HAND, HE'LL JUST HIT YOU ANYWAY. IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU ANY SORT OF PSYCHOLOGICAL OR PHYSICAL CONTROL. HE WON'T BE TRYING TO PULL AWAY HE'S ALREADY COMMITTED TO PUNCHING YOU. WHY WOULD HE PULL AWAY WHEN HE HAS HIS HAND ON YOUR SHOULDER AND HIS FIST COCKED AND IS IN THE MIDST OF FIRING A PUNCH OR--AS IN MY SCENARIO--HE'S ALREADY PUNCHED YOU AND YOU'RE RESPONDING TO HIS AGGRESSION BELATEDLY? HE'LL JUST KEEP HITTING YOU,MAN. I'M ACTUALLY SURPRISED THAT A GUY AS SHARP AS YOU ARE MISSED THAT. MAYBE YOU'RE ENVISIONING A SITUATION WHERE HE'S JUST GRABBED YOUR SHOULDER BUT HASN'T LOADED A PUNCH TO FIRE YET..?

* But this is assuming that the punch will always be his next course of action. Thats like saying that every time a weapon is pulled, it'll be used. As I said, with a weapon, alot of the time its intimidation. Not saying they wont use it, just like i"m not saying they won't punch. In this case, you're assuming the punch will always happen. I disagree. That said, when someone is grabbed, their natural reaction is to pull away, not marry the guys hands, and move in, counter strike, etc.

- When being pulled, go with the energy of that pull.

Most of the more common Sword and Hammer sequences that I've seen live as well as those on YT do NOT feature an actual pull by uke. Most have him posing and doing nothing. But even if they did feature the pull? They neglect to address the very high probability that the BG's punch is hard on the heels of the pull, so they'll be pulled into the oncoming punch in far too many cases. The "more common" Sword and Hammer version that you claim is superior to mine doesn't remotely address this reality.

*Ras, you keep harping on this, and frankly its kinda old. Of course you don't see this in those techs. Why? Because once again, its a platform to build from. Your method is taking the student from step 1 to 10, without hitting 2 thru 9. You make it seem like you're the only one to address a punch. You're not. I do it, just not as rapidly as you're doing it.*

THE FACT THAT I INTRO THE PUNCH IMMEDIATELY DOESN'T MEAN THAT I'M GOING FROM 1 DIRECTLY TO 10, WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT I'M PRESENTING A COMPLETE SCENARIO FROM DAY ONE TO BE TRAINED AGAINST. WE BREAK DOWN OUR RESPONSES AGAINST THE GRAB AND PUNCH WITH THE COVER AND SPIN FIRST. WE DON'T EVEN PROGRESS TO THE NEXT MOVES UNTIL YOU'RE HIT FIRST, RECOVER, AND THEN SPIN. THAT IS THE MOST ESSENTIAL ASPECT OF THE SEQUENCE. WE COVER BEING PULLED INTO THE PUNCH AND JUST GOING WITH OUR SWORD AND HAMMER THERE AS WELL AS SPINNING AWAY AFTER WE'RE CRACKED FROM THE REAR AND BEING PUSHED AWAY BY BODY PRESSURE AND PUNCHES. WE FOLLOW A VERY SPECIFIC PROGRESSION AND WE COVER ALL OF THE PRIMARY STEPS IN BETWEEN...BUT WE PRESENT A COMPLETE RESPONSE. WE JUST DO SO, AS YOU STATED, EARLIER THAN YOU DO. THAT'S A MATTER OF TRAINING PREFERENCE AND TRAINING PARADIGM, NOT A LACK IN TRAINING QUALITY. I'M SURE YOU TEACH YOUR MORE SLOWLY PACED METHOD WELL, AND I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT I TEACH MINE VERY WELL INDEED. AS LONG AS THE RESULT IS A FULLY FUNCTIONAL STUDENT? I DON'T SEE TOO MUCH TO QUIBBLE ABOUT.

*Umm...if we look at the early techniques, and katas, we'll see they're teaching specific things. This is mentioned in the 5 vol Parker books. Seems like to me, it'd make more sense to ease the student into dealing with 1 attack first, before trying to get them to deal with a grab and a punch. So yes, your way it taking them from 1-10. I cover the same thing you are, but I get them to deal with one thing first. As I said above, we're assuming that the punch will follow. What if it doesnt? I've seen people grabbed and moved around, slammed into a wall, etc.

- The use of pre-emptive striking as a tactic.

As I have previously stated and left links proving to be true...Kenpo Elders like Larry Tatum and Doc Chapel find the "pre-emptive strike" notion to be questionable at best. On the mat? Their skepticism is thoroughly underscored by actually sparring with Sword and Hammer vs the Hockey Punch.

* And thats their opinion. The use of a pre-emptive strike is very useful. Theres nothing 'questionable' about it at all. Numerous RBSD guys use it and speak of its effectiveness. The #1 reason people 'question' its use, is because to the average Joe passerby, it'll look like WE are making the first move. What the untrained person IS NOT seeing, is the agressive, threatening actions, by the badguy. THAT right there, is assault. Sorry, but anyone who would wait for the punch to be half way to their face before reacting, well, they're an idiot. As I've said a million times, and I'll say it a million more....my safety, and that of anyone with me is my #1 concern! I'll deal with the other BS later. *

MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE SPECIFIC AND CLEAR: THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE IDEA AND CONCEPT OF THE PREEMPTIVE STRIKE. THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF DIFFICULTY IN PULLING THIS CONCEPT OFF USING THIS SEQUENCE WHILE UNDER DURESS AND STILL HAVE A VERY HIGH LEVEL OF PROTECTION AGAINST LEGAL RAMIFICATIONS FOR GUESSING WRONG. WITHOUT SOME KIND OF ASSESSMENT MECHANISM BEING BUILT INTO THE SEQUENCE ITSELF AND REENFORCED VIA TRAINING, MUSCLE MEMORY COULD TAKE OVER AND YOU MIGHT BLAST SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T DESERVE THE SWORD AND HAMMER INTO OBLIVION. OR YOU MIGHT GO OVERKILL WITH THE FORCE ON SOMEBODY WHO DOES INDEED DESERVE THE SWORD AND HAMMER. AND THERE ARE ALOT MORE ISSUES THAT I SEE WITH THE WHOLE PREEMPTIVE STRIKE NOTION--NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH IS THAT IT'S THE LEAST LIKELY TO HAPPEN UNDER DURESS IN THIS KIND OF HOCKEY PUNCH SCENARIO AND MOST DIFFICULT IN MOST CASES TO LEGALLY AND MORALLY JUSTIFY--BUT IF YOU END UP WITH A FULLY FUNCTIONAL STUDENT USING YOUR METHOD? HAVE AT IT THEN.

*Can't be that hard, because there're people who preach the use of the pre empt and teach it, all the time. Saying its hard to pre-empt, because of duress, but pulling off a SD tech isn't, doesnt make sense. As for the legal stuff...this is why I've said many times, that the majority of schools teach only what I call the "During" phase, yet they leave out the "Before and After" phases, those being how to verbally defuse something and how to deal with the aftermath. Like I said, I'll deal with the legal stuff after.

Of course, I'm not necessarily talking about a preset SD tech. I'm talking about something as simple as a pre-emptive palm to the face, a kick to the shin, etc. I doubt those things, which are minor IMO, are going to land me in a heap. Even in the DOC, we had a use of force protocol to follow. Things like that are less frowned upon vs. if I knocked out a few teeth, took an eye, etc.

 

[ATACX GYM]

That depends on what you mean when you say "Sword and Hammer." If you mean a technique where you use a striking combination including a handsword and a hammerfist, maybe it still is. But the names of the techniques represent a series of conceptual symbols in the minds of many EPAK and related stylists. So when you say "Sword and Hammer" to them, it immediately brings to mind a specific sequence of movements and related principles. That's part of the problem here Ras. You're using symbols (in the form of technique names) to represent one thing while it represents something different to your audience. It's like your using the word "dog" to refer to cats. Sure, they're both small furry house pets, but the words mean something specifically different. So you end up with a communication breakdown.

I don't use the name "Sword and Hammer." I call this technique "Hidden Strikes" which refers to the method of delivering the strikes. I've learned as many as five or six names for many of the kenpo techniques because I've trained in several different schools and I've had to learn the EPAK names so that I can converse with those practitioners. Ultimately, what you call the technique may or may not matter depending on whether you use the names as part of your method of instruction. Some people just call them "Purple Technique 1" and "Purple Technique 2."

Is your technique Sword and Hammer? Well, it is if you say it is. In your school with your students the only thing that matters is that you are consistent in your presentation. In discussions with practitioners outside your school using terms that already have clearly defined meanings in a way other than what is commonly accepted will always lead to understandable confusion. Communication is only possible because we share a common concept of the meaning of symbols. Absent that, it simply isn't.

Or in other words, "You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


-Rob

You know...Doc was trying to say something similar to me, I think. You said it much better.

Now, I thought that I made sufficient distinction between my idea about Sword and Hammer when I said ATACX GYM SWORD AND HAMMER RADIUS R.D.L. and when I'd say hundreds of times and even when leading into my videos:" This is nothing like you'd been taught". But I suppose that what you mean is that mentioning SWORD AND HAMMER in most any combination will summon the mental image of the one-hand chop and hammer in the minds of most Parker guys.

Okay now...what if I was of the opinion that my understanding of Sword and Hammer is NOT the physical articulation of Sword and Hammer that became popular merely because of a misunderstanding that conflates the loose physical guideline and suggestions within Big Red with THEE IRON-CLAD SWORD AND HAMMER [ said in the big basso profundo echoing voice like some superpowerful entity is speaking ]. Now are you saying that I should essentially tacitly perpetuate this misunderstanding by capitulating to the language and mental imagery of the misinformed [ of which I was a member--to a lesser degree but still a member--for quite some time ]? Why not combat this misinformation from day one and stand steadfast as a redoubt, a bastion, of correct information and use language reflective of our newfound data?

I have made the language changes that you and others have suggested in my videos. If you notice, I no longer denigrate the dysfunctional expressions that I disagree with forthrightly in my videos. I continue to develope and evolve in numerous areas. But I can't see how I wouldn't be a part of perpetuating the very misinformation that I stand against if I agree to participate in the misinformation or at least don't call it out when I see it.

I will use more of sumdumguy's suggestions visavis verbiage, and hopefully that will more clearly convey my positions without causing unnecessary static with many EPAK guys...but there's gonna be unavoidable static because faaaarrrrr too many EPAK guys labor under the misinformation of what the I.P. is and isn't. I'm gonna clash with these guys. But I don't see why I should have to clash with people who understand exactly what I mean and use the language of people who convey an idea that is exactly what I don't mean and is rooted in misinformation that I don't want to help perpetuate and which I don't agree with in any way.

So when EPAK guys say...SWORD AND HAMMER...guys like you and me who know the answer and the history should enlighten them. We might start by telling them:

Or in other words, "You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


-Rob

 

[MJS]

I don't offer a one size fit all approach, bruh. I simply point out that training A SINGLE TECH to handle MULTIPLE ATTACKS is the height of common sense, efficiency, and absolutely mandates much more higher levels of quality muscle reps using that same tech vs all manner of attacks. This makes you BETTER, not worse. It doesn't take more time either. If you take every tech you have and train it vs multiple attacks like this:

And that to me reads 1 size fits all. Maybe its miscommunication/misunderstanding, but let me say this....it seems that you're taking a stand up tech, we'll use S&H since thats what this threads about, and you're using the entire thing against any attack, ie: a grab, a punch, a kick, a bearhug, a full nelson, etc. I'm saying this is impossible. The concepts and ideas may be used, but other than that....I'm not seeing it. Furthermore, why would I want to do that, when, again, I can drill my basics, and formulate my own response.

[video=youtube_share;kEZ-zAUEkR4]http://youtu.be/kEZ-zAUEkR4[/video]

then every tech you have that you formulate into a sequence is ALSO thoroughly flexible and capable of dealing with multiple attacks. The only limits to your application is your training model. I told you guys that my Sword and Hammer almost 100% translates to the ground and vs weapons exactly as you see it done empty handed. MJS, you should recall that the old skool Kali warriors are far famed for doing exactly the same thing, so your own art incarnates the truth of the position that I champion. I'm surprised that you in any way gainsay it.

There are things that, depending on what you're doing, can't be done on every side, if we're talking about a stick. For example...in Arnis there are 12 angles of attack. I can't use a #1 disarm against a #2 angle of attack. Just isn't happening.

 

[Thesemindz]

There are things that, depending on what you're doing, can't be done on every side, if we're talking about a stick. For example...in Arnis there are 12 angles of attack. I can't use a #1 disarm against a #2 angle of attack. Just isn't happening.

I don't think he means exactly that. I think he means you could use #1 disarm with your right arm or your left in mirror image. Like training your techniques "left handed," which not everybody does, but he does with everything.


-Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

Ras, I was discussing this very thread with my wife this morning and she related it to the confusion that arises between different sects of christianity. They often use the same terms such as "salvation," "baptism," and "afterlife," but they may mean wildly different things according to their particular perspective. So then you have two different believers from two different faith traditions and they try to converse using common symbols and terms and don't understand why they are coming to radically different and incompatible conclusions. But it's because even though their symbols and terms are superficially similar, they actually represent very different things. Unless that is understood first, productive communication can't possibly take place. Because they're speaking different languages.

Personally, I don't care what you call it. Like I said, I've had to learn many different names and terms, so I don't get as hung up on the labels. But when you're conversing with people for whom "Sword and Hammer" has only ever had one meaning, you're going to run in to this problem. It's like the "false friend" concept from the field of linguistics. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, but you can call just about any damn thing you want a rose, and if you do, it's going to lead to a lot of confusion on Valentine's Day.


-Rob

 

[MJS]

I don't think he means exactly that. I think he means you could use #1 disarm with your right arm or your left in mirror image. Like training your techniques "left handed," which not everybody does, but he does with everything.


-Rob

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...both-sides&highlight=techniques+on+both+sides

Hey Rob,

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't reading it that way, but if thats what he meant, cool. The link I posted is one that I found. I'm sure there're more, but this is the first one that I saw. Anyways...you'll see differing views on what you're talking about. I've "taught" myself alot of the techs on the left side, mainly because it was easier for them to follow along.

As for the Arnis...we have various rt/rt, rt/lt, lt/rt, lt/lt drills that we work. Working the stuff all left vs. left isnt a requirement. AFAIK, its something that you can do, if you want.

 

[Thesemindz]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...both-sides&highlight=techniques+on+both+sides

Hey Rob,

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't reading it that way, but if thats what he meant, cool. The link I posted is one that I found. I'm sure there're more, but this is the first one that I saw. Anyways...you'll see differing views on what you're talking about. I've "taught" myself alot of the techs on the left side, mainly because it was easier for them to follow along.

As for the Arnis...we have various rt/rt, rt/lt, lt/rt, lt/lt drills that we work. Working the stuff all left vs. left isnt a requirement. AFAIK, its something that you can do, if you want.

Doc has some great posts about this subject that have really helped to inform my approach. I still practice my techniques on both sides, but with what he's said in the past in mind I've realized that some movements are inherently more effective with one side of my body or the other. That isn't to say that I can't become more proficient over time with each side, only that some moves may have a higher functional ceiling with one side of the body or the other. At least, that's my understanding today, maybe over time I'll learn more.


-Rob