Strating your own System, That is the Question???????

[VSanhodo]

Hi Folks
I started another thread asking about being a Soke or Not and I recieved quite a few posts and a number of private E mails form ppl who frankly didnt like my posts and disagreed with some of the posts which other participants left.
Now Im not in this for a popularity contest, but one of the things that came out of the posts and E mails brought up a what I thought would be a good topic.

Lets say for sake of argument you agree with ppl starting their own systems. I have 4 questions.

1) What is the mininum rank a person should hold before starting their own system??

2) How long should a person have studied and or had time in grade?

3) What other requirements should a person have?

4) Should there be some type of exam board or accrediation board for testing to ensure high standards?

I look forward to your posts, all opinions and views are welcome.

Thanks

San

 

[Poggy]

You mean starting up your own system?

Well... isn't that sort of what every martial artist does?! They use what works best for them! You need to use what works best for you.

Ranks... personally (no offence to anyone) but i don't see the point in ranks.
"Skill" will depend on how much you're willing to train, etc... not what colour belt you wear, etc.

 

[Andrew Green]

Lets say for sake of argument you agree with ppl starting their own systems. I have 4 questions.

1) What is the mininum rank a person should hold before starting their own system??

None

2) How long should a person have studied and or had time in grade?

None

3) What other requirements should a person have?

A good instructor / coach

4) Should there be some type of exam board or accrediation board for testing to ensure high standards?

No

Of course if you mean starting a traditional type style with a rank syllabus and list of techniques that is an entirely different matter. And really, I think we got enough of those.

 

[LT2002]

If someone begins there own system the rank held is founder - period.


no dan
no grand pooba
just founder

why? who is going to grade you in your own style?

 

[kamishinkan]

The questions asked in this thread, I am assuming, is for those who would like their art to be "credible" (to whom??). It seems that with all of the so called American masters that have went the way of the "pay for sponsorship" of modern martial arts (western based), has left EVERYONE who is not Asian in suspect. Although I am totally against the "get a a couple of ranks on your black belt and start your own system" approach, I am also just as against having double standards in that if you have an Asian last name and you live in Japan, (or elsewhere in Asia), no one thinks twice about this practice. I could mention a few people in Japan's history that is considered to be pioneers of Gendai Budo and if you looked at their training history....well if their last name was Smith in America, all of the "Budo Police" would be going crazy!
To give an opinion to the questions,
1. Minimum rank......Menkyo Kaiden (Full Transmission of art) or equivalent or Soke Dairi Head Family representative) under a lineaged inheritor (Soke).
2. Length of study.....Long enough to achieve these titles/ranks
3. What other requirements.....Legitimate reason for leaving style to found your own
4. Exam/Accredation Board....No, but the newly founded system should be backed/sponsored by an already known lineaged system.
Although there may be circumstances for systems to be founded with the founder having less than desirable credentials, this should be the exceptions not the "norm". These systems should also be judged with the same standards as older systems that were created, If they stand the test of time....
Just an opinion.

 

[Touch Of Death]

If someone begins there own system the rank held is founder - period.


no dan
no grand pooba
just founder

why? who is going to grade you in your own style?

If its your own style then couldn't the founding position be Grand Poobah? Or say Supreem Big Dog Extroirdinare.

 

[searcher]

If its your own style then couldn't the founding position be Grand Poobah? Or say Supreem Big Dog Extroirdinare.

I have always been partial to Big Cheese.:rofl:

On a more serious note I think they should ask themselves what is wrong with finding themselves a style that works for them. If they feel they can't, then they will have to decide for themselves what they need to ctart the formation of their style. I am sure nobody told Funakoshi, Aragaki, Chitose, Nakaima, or any other founder what was required of them to form their own style.

 

[Aikia]

Vasahodo,
Anyone can start their own system on paper. The better question is "When does a system exist?". To become an art or system the style must endure the test of time. When you teach a system and you train black belts who then teach the original system with out changes to their own black belt students that then teach students the same system without changes to the level of Black Belt then you have created a system.
Three generations of black belts are required to recognize an art or system. Not an easy task. When you have accomplished these requirements then you have a valid style and need no one's approval. Very few instructors can create styles...except on paper.

 

[ginshun]

I have always been partial to Big Cheese.:rofl:

Once I start up my own system, I think Supreme Overloard will be my title.


Seriously though, I don't know, but I do kind of like Aikia's idea of what an actual system is.

 

[tshadowchaser]

1. Minimum of 5th degree in primary style and 3rd in 2nd style various rank in the others



2. 30 years: 20 in one system minimum 10 in another, various amounts(but none less than a year) in the others he/she is incorporating

• Legitimate reason for leaving style to found your own, be acknowledged by contemporaries as knowledgeable and with the ability to pass on that knowledge.

4. No because this again could result in a “good old boys club” also I believe that if there where such a board then it should be comprised of people knowledgeable in the arts you had and be of an open-mindedness and truthful enough to say “yes you have developed something unique” or “ What kind of nonsense was that. Where is your original blending and new techniques”

 

[ninhito]

question..whats wrong with making your own system even if noone els gets into it? Then you could test it on the streets and change it or get into the kmilitary and use it then, ya' know experiment alittle or get your freinds that are dumb enough to let you try some things. Then if you think its effective enough then you teach it to your kids, if you have any, or let it die with you... I mean all systems started with someone thinking, "wow i can really kick some *** with this move, maybe i should upgrade it, make it better and put some other things in there to make it cool looking maybe or make it more simplistic yet more powerful." It would be the same as an inventor or an artist...he doesnt need the publics approval many times... To make a system would like making your own suit of armor and own clothes and maybe your own mind set..only more physical right...also there is alot in a system so it would take along time to make it, right so that would be my menkyo kaiden, right...

 

[Matt Stone]

Lets say for sake of argument you agree with ppl starting their own systems.

That's a big assumption, but let's run with it...

I have 4 questions.

None of which are pertinent... The answers only matter when you ask the right questions, and the four you listed are certainly not appropriate.

"Starting your own style" is a common myth among American martial artists, especially given the nature of our "new and improved" culture. We take traditional, standard, tried and true products, repackage them in something shiny and new, and attempt to sell them to the relatively unsuspecting public as something "new and improved" (though that is usually not the case).

It has been stated that an art worthy of being considered "new" will stand the test of time, it will endure decades of trial, error and comparison long before it is unleashed on the public. The art will withstand the scrutiny of outsiders, qualified or not, and will be shown to have genuine worth. Further, it won't be simply a reorganization of old material - that isn't a "new" style, just another repackaging attempt gone awry.

Further, what are the qualifications and background of the "founder?" I'm not talking ATA dan rankings, or the number of trophies someone has been awarded, but rather what constitutes the "founder" as someone capable of founding an art in the first place? How long has he/she been training as an adult (since MA learned as a child really don't carry much beyond athletic development over into adult MA practice)?

So perhaps you could answer the questions set forth above and outline why you think someone would be qualified to "found" an art...

 

[terryl965]

Please I invented my own system it's call COACH POtATOE, the whole idea of this form is to be lazy never get a job and live off the goverment, My poomse would be come out bow sit, burb and lay down ans reach for the remote and turn it on.

I kmow sound stupid but i bet i can find a following, stick to Tradition and trainingwill be so much better.

 

[TigerWoman]

Please I invented my own system it's call COACH POtATOE, the whole idea of this form is to be lazy never get a job and live off the goverment, My poomse would be come out bow sit, burb and lay down ans reach for the remote and turn it on.

I kmow sound stupid but i bet i can find a following, stick to Tradition and trainingwill be so much better.

:rofl: Hey, I think you already have a following! You don't even have to train for twenty-forty years! Okay FWIW as they say:

The traditional martial arts have withstood the trial of time and endured. A new system would have to prove itself. TW

 

[47MartialMan]

1) What is the mininum rank a person should hold before starting their own system??

I say 5th dan or at least 10 years

2) How long should a person have studied and or had time in grade?

Ditto-10 Years

3) What other requirements should a person have?

Versitility in many applications of their previous art and have idea of other arts.

4) Should there be some type of exam board or accrediation board for testing to ensure high standards?

If there was, whom would be put in charge of the accrediation?

 

[still learning]

Hello, I would think if anyone wants to start their own style(stystem) would do it only if they think they can and want to. This person knows he must have the knowledge, skills, and leadership to make it work. Time in the field is a must. Can't put a number, but I would think at least many years. Have you notice the people who have started one, has made many changes as they grow.? This is the natural process for any head Sensi.

Doesn't this reminds you of a new business, many fail, but once and awhile a great one grows into history. Example Jeet kun do, BJJ,

Many times it is a person who just wanted to teach his own thing his way and broke away from the normal school he was at. ED Parker, and many others.

There is no rules, anyone can open his own style. Success only comes with hard work/lots of luck too. Age is not important. (like opening your own business to teach anything).

A teacher from school once told us " If you start a business and you get repeat business, you are doing something right, but if you don't get repeat business,you are doing something wrong. One can stay in business only if they are making money. Same with your own Stystem. .....Aloha

 

[dubljay]

If one is going to create their own system that incorperates other arts/systems at what point does it differ from MMA and become its own system? Furthermore if you are combining concepts of other existing arts how do they become "your" own concepts to form a different system? Perhaps I don't understand the common definition of system and MMA...

-Josh

 

[47MartialMan]

Matt Stone,

So the questions are not appropriate....So the duration of time and/or knowledge are not a factor?

One question: What other requirements should a person have?, was approproate enough for you to reply thus:
Further, what are the qualifications and background of the "founder?" I'm not talking ATA dan rankings, or the number of trophies someone has been awarded, but rather what constitutes the "founder" as someone capable of founding an art in the first place? How long has he/she been training as an adult (since MA learned as a child really don't carry much beyond athletic development over into adult MA practice)?
The person starting this thread maybe searching for what people beleive to be personal guidlines or standards for creating a new art. So what would be yours?

 

[MichiganTKD]

I have several problems with people claiming to start their own system:

1. Most "new systems" are merely mongrel styles comprised of a little bit of this and a little bit of that, instead of being truly unique.

2. Many people who claimed to have started their own style do so after having left or gotten kicked out of their original organization. You must ask yourself "Why did they get kicked out and would I really want to study under someone who has no credibility in their original organization?"

3. Most of these "new styles" have no real background, history, tradition, etiquette, or philosophy behind them. Yes, everything starts somewhere, but any legitimate style has a background to go with it.

 

[The Kai]

I have several problems with people claiming to start their own system:

1. Most "new systems" are merely mongrel styles comprised of a little bit of this and a little bit of that, instead of being truly unique.

2. Many people who claimed to have started their own style do so after having left or gotten kicked out of their original organization. You must ask yourself "Why did they get kicked out and would I really want to study under someone who has no credibility in their original organization?"

3. Most of these "new styles" have no real background, history, tradition, etiquette, or philosophy behind them. Yes, everything starts somewhere, but any legitimate style has a background to go with it.

Oddly enough TKD is comprised mainly of Shotokan, with passing knowledge of a Native Tae Kyon, and of course the interpretting of a ancient Chinese treaty on the battle fiels arts.
When TKD was first formulating on the Korean soil, there was a hugh switch from Japanese customs to native customs. So really the customs of TKD are what 5o-60 years old?