STOP THE TAKEDOWN! - Wing Chun / JKD / Tai Chi

[Tony Dismukes]

Do you really think these guys could avoid being taken down by a top level grappler?

Nope, but I haven't seen them claim they could either.

Do I think they could avoid being taken down by a BJJ white belt or a low-level wrestler or a random grappler of the caliber they are likely to encounter in a street self defense situation long enough use their striking (or draw a weapon)? Sure. Unlike the practitioners in some of the other "anti-grappling" videos Hanzou has posted, these guys seem to at least understand the basics of how takedowns work and how to realistically counter them and they seem to understand the importance of pressure testing. They may not be ready for the UFC, but their takedown defense is probably adequate for most street scenarios. (I'm just guessing here, because Izzo is the only one of the bunch I've seen actually practicing live, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.)

Now, if they were touting the techniques they demoed as a magical talisman that would enable strikers to "fear no grappler", then I would agree they were being ignorant, arrogant, and disrespectful. I didn't get the impression that was their intention.

 

[drop bear]

I didn't say just to beat up 1 kid. I said to beat up the all elementary school kids. If you can step and crash 10,000 bugs on the ground, you may have developed something. I also did say just stop there. That's just a starting point but not an ending point.

Cool. I am going to the nearest elementary school right now.

 

[K-man]

Like this?

Kramer Dominates the Dojo - YouTube

Yep! Pretty much as I was thinking.

 

[K-man]

Preventing take downs against a white belt is a start, that's all I'm suggesting. Sitting around and theorizing doesn't mean anything if you don't test your theories. Do you really think these guys could avoid being taken down by a top level grappler? Sorry to upset the wc royal court but they are not beyond question. If anything anti grappling is disrespectful to all of the grappling arts as a whole. It's ridiculous to think you can learn one or two moves or "concepts" that can stop someone who devotes all of their training time to take downs. What would you think about a BJJ guy teaching how to out trap a wc guy in trapping range?

Preventing takedowns against a BJJ white belt is a total waste of time and a calculated insult against anyone training WC and looking at preventing a shoot. I was not suggesting that the WC guys could avoid being taken down by a top level grappler but they could be taught by one. Perhaps you should read my previous post again.

Oh, for the record so that Steve won't need to post it again ... I have very little knowledge of WC. I am just a 'fan'.

 

[drop bear]

All fun aside I think the point being made is it is good to train with top level grapplers. But if you can't stop a beginner grappler that is when you know your defence needs work.

Buy the way those school kids slap hard and fight dirty.

I am not trying that one again.

 

[K-man]

Which term do you suggest? We can use

- "throw" to replace "takedown".
- "wrestler" to replace "grappler".

You are right the throw (or takedown) is more than just "single leg" and "double legs". There are more than 60 different categories of throw and more than 400 different throws. Even the "single leg", there are more than 20 different ways to execute it.

Can I humbly suggest that takedown is the correct term that is all embracing. It includes throws. For example in Aikido there are numerous takedowns but only one throw.
:asian:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But if you can't stop a beginner grappler that is when you know your defence needs work.

Agree!

If a not too pretty girl doesn't want to go out with you, what kind of chance that a pretty girl will accept your date?

When you were young and started your 1st date, you might want to date a girl who was not so pretty. This way, you will build up your confidence. After you have some self-confidence, you may have more courage to date a much pretty girl. Even if that self-confidence may be just false confidence, it's still better than no confidence at all.

 

[K-man]

Agree!

If a not too pretty girl doesn't want to go out with you, what kind of chance that a pretty girl will accept your date?

When you were young and started your 1st date, you might want to date a girl who was not so pretty. This way, you will build up your confidence. After you have some self-confidence, you may have more courage to date a much pretty girl. Even if that self-confidence may be just false confidence, it's still better than no confidence at all.

Um, no. Just no!
:ladysman:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Can I humbly suggest that takedown is the correct term that is all embracing. It includes throws. For example in Aikido there are numerous takedowns but only one throw.
:asian:

There is only one Chinese word "摔(Shuai) - throw". That word came from 2 deer tries to use horn to flip the other to the ground.

The only concern that I have is "take down" may imply a "downward motion" while "throw" may imply both "downward motion" and "upward motion".

The term

- "throw" may imply that to "let the earth to do the punch for you".
- "takedown" doesn't imply that at all.

This is an "upward motion". Will you call this takedown?

 

[drop bear]

Agree!

If a not too pretty girl doesn't want to go out with you, what kind of chance that a pretty girl will accept your date?

When you were young and started your 1st date, you might want to date a girl who was not so pretty. This way, you will build up your confidence. After you have some self-confidence, you may have more courage to date a much pretty girl. Even if that self-confidence may be just false confidence, it's still better than no confidence at all.

That is backwards for dating. Go after the pretty girl because everybody else is going after the not too pretty one.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That is backwards for dating. Go after the pretty girl because everybody else is going after the not too pretty one.

My 1st girl was not a very pretty one. During our 1st date, she got on top of me and kissed me. That 1st kiss gave me my lifetime self-confidence. :ladysman:

 

[K-man]

There is only one Chinese word "摔(Shuai) - throw". That word came from 2 deer tries to use horn to flip the other to the ground.

The only concern that I have is "take down" may imply a "downward motion" while "throw" may imply both "downward motion" and "upward motion".

The term

- "throw" may imply that to "let the earth to do the punch for you".
- "takedown" doesn't imply that at all.

This is an "upward motion". Will you call this takedown?

Pretty much anything that puts your opponent on the ground is a takedown.
:asian:

 

[Kwan Sau]

How do you stop a double leg take down?

Hit em as hard as you can, then...hope for the best.

 

[Kwan Sau]

There is only one Chinese word "摔(Shuai) - throw". That word came from 2 deer tries to use horn to flip the other to the ground.
The only concern that I have is "take down" may imply a "downward motion" while "throw" may imply both "downward motion" and "upward motion".
The term
- "throw" may imply that to "let the earth to do the punch for you".
- "takedown" doesn't imply that at all.
This is an "upward motion". Will you call this takedown?

What goes up, must eventually come down...so yes I would call that a throw/takedown...:hmm:

And then the earth can punch them

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I didn't say just to beat up 1 kid. I said to beat up the all elementary school kids. If you can step and crash 10,000 bugs on the ground, you may have developed something. I also didn't say just stop there. That's just a starting point but not an ending point.

How many 5 year olds could you take if they all swarmed you at once? : AskReddit

 

[K-man]

How many 5 year olds could you take if they all swarmed you at once? : AskReddit

Man, you are sick.

 

[Eric_H]

My 1st girl was not a very pretty one. During our 1st date, she got on top of me and kissed me. That 1st kiss gave me my lifetime self-confidence. :ladysman:

 

[wtxs]

This is an "upward motion". Will you call this takedown?

No ,,, I call it "throwdown"

 

[drop bear]

How many 5 year olds could you take if they all swarmed you at once? : AskReddit

LiveLeak.com - Underage Thieves Robbing People in Brazil

 

[Mephisto]

Nope, but I haven't seen them claim they could either.

Do I think they could avoid being taken down by a BJJ white belt or a low-level wrestler or a random grappler of the caliber they are likely to encounter in a street self defense situation long enough use their striking (or draw a weapon)? Sure. Unlike the practitioners in some of the other "anti-grappling" videos Hanzou has posted, these guys seem to at least understand the basics of how takedowns work and how to realistically counter them and they seem to understand the importance of pressure testing. They may not be ready for the UFC, but their takedown defense is probably adequate for most street scenarios. (I'm just guessing here, because Izzo is the only one of the bunch I've seen actually practicing live, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.)

Now, if they were touting the techniques they demoed as a magical talisman that would enable strikers to "fear no grappler", then I would agree they were being ignorant, arrogant, and disrespectful. I didn't get the impression that was their intention.

Keep in mind that a person in BJJ can be a whitebelt in Bjj for more than a couple of years. A white belt that has been training seriously can pose quite a challenge for those unaccustomed to grappling. In addition, a Bjj white belt is a far cry from an untrained person on the street, perhaps I could have specified "three stripe white belt" but I don't think all schools use the same system. Can you repost the video of iizzo training alive? I must have overlooked it.

Preventing takedowns against a BJJ white belt is a total waste of time and a calculated insult against anyone training WC and looking at preventing a shoot. I was not suggesting that the WC guys could avoid being taken down by a top level grappler but they could be taught by one. Perhaps you should read my previous post again.

Oh, for the record so that Steve won't need to post it again ... I have very little knowledge of WC. I am just a 'fan'.

not sure how it's a waste of time? Or an insult, see my above comment. In Bjj a white belt isn't meant as a pejorative term, and many outside of the Bjj community may be surprised just how much skill a white belt (2-3 stripe) can have. Of course they could learn from a top level grappler, but instead they bring in guys with no grappling experience to theorize.

All fun aside I think the point being made is it is good to train with top level grapplers. But if you can't stop a beginner grappler that is when you know your defence needs work.

Buy the way those school kids slap hard and fight dirty.

I am not trying that one again.

thats all I was saying! Thank you!

There is only one Chinese word "摔(Shuai) - throw". That word came from 2 deer tries to use horn to flip the other to the ground.

The only concern that I have is "take down" may imply a "downward motion" while "throw" may imply both "downward motion" and "upward motion".

The term

- "throw" may imply that to "let the earth to do the punch for you".
- "takedown" doesn't imply that at all.

This is an "upward motion". Will you call this takedown?

Quit being pedantic, we all know what the topic is here. But we are all very impressed by how much you know!