futsaowingchun
Black Belt
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The Classic Pak Sao drill
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I used to like this drill. Many things can be done with it. I learned it not as paak then punch in two timings, but for paak-sau to become a cutting punch directly in one beat, as shown in the video below, which is good. People train it for timing when to enter on a straight punch.
The problem with this drill is that it trains you to retract from an attack that is also retracting, which is detrimental to your development of lat sau jik chung, especially at beginner stages where this drill is often introduced. I have learned to discard this drilling format.
The problem with this drill is that it trains you to retract from an attack that is also retracting, which is detrimental to your development of lat sau jik chung, especially at beginner stages where this drill is often introduced. I have learned to discard this drilling format.
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This is one of the core drilling platforms in Pin Sun. Every solo set that we practice has a version done within the Pak Da drill to explore what is being taught in the set. We probably do this more than we do Chi Sau. LFJ, we do a Pak & immediate punch with a step that we call "touch & go" from further out, which becomes an excluding or cutting punch when already closer in.....like what you are talking about. We do the Pak Da drill stationary, with pivots, walking around, etc. We consider it a from of Chi Sau in the sense that it is a reactive drill, even if it isn't a "sticking" drill.
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futsaowingchun
Black Belt
Really? All I mentioned was training timing to cut in on a straight punch, as shown in the clip I added. Pretty simple.
People actually do many things with it in progression; add shifting, learn various entries, entry counters, then take it into more realistic freehand drilling.
I personally just don't think the idea of standing there in YJKYM slapping chain punches is good training. Paak-sau as I know it is always part of an attack. This is like standing there alternating bong-sao's (paak with the elbow), then deciding when to punch off one of them.
Just not my cup of tea, but people can train however they like.
People actually do many things with it in progression; add shifting, learn various entries, entry counters, then take it into more realistic freehand drilling.
I personally just don't think the idea of standing there in YJKYM slapping chain punches is good training. Paak-sau as I know it is always part of an attack. This is like standing there alternating bong-sao's (paak with the elbow), then deciding when to punch off one of them.
Just not my cup of tea, but people can train however they like.
Here's kind of what I was talking about with the progressions. But you see, when it comes to distanced punching there's hesitation and hand-chasing because that's basically what the drill does. I think this is taking a basic hand-eye coordination drill too far.
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futsaowingchun
Black Belt
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
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All three examples are different from what I do- illustrating the wide diversities in wing chun. In 1)Not clssic IMO- just fut sao version perhaps I control the elbow but I pak and do other things at the kiu- the bridge 2) the guys are pretty stiff 3) misses some main points of pak sao... fairly mechanical==pak pak punch punch push.
Interesting variations.
Interesting variations.
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futsaowingchun
Black Belt
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I learned this drill very similar when I was training at Lee moy Shan school back in the early 80s not much difference to the way I was doing it. This drill is about as simple and to the point as you can get it IMO
I like what James Roller was doing in that video. As I pointed out before, you can choose to use the Pak Da drill as a form of Chi Sau. It is a platform into which you can insert all kinds of things. It is no more "chasing hands" or "mechanical" than the typical Chi Sau rolling platform. In my opinion, it may even be a better platform to work from than the Chi Sau roll. It starts off with your most fundamental defense against a punch...Pak Sau. At its core it is based upon defending against repeated multiple punches from an opponent. So which sounds like a more realistic scenario?.....working against an opponent coming at you with a combination of punches, or working against an opponent standing very close, already in contact, and rolling with you?
Trick question? Neither of these forms of drilling are scenario training...
In the paak-sau drill there is no "opponent coming at you with a combination of punches". There is a partner standing in YJKYM feeding you basic chain punches. And pun-sau is not "working against an opponent". It's working with a partner and is not about realistic fighting because it's not fighting at all.
Realism comes into training after developmental drills are solid enough and shouldn't involve any preset 1:1 actions and responses, by definition.
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futsaowingchun
Black Belt
Point taken. My wording could have been better. I should have said "which sounds like it is closer to reality?" Someone cooperatively rolling with you is not realistic at all. Someone throwing punches at you is at least closer to reality in that you aren't starting out in contact and you are dealing with an attack, however mechanical it may be.
