Bong Sau

[Hong Kong Pooey]

This is something I really seem to struggle with, a lot of the time I'm either too tense or it collapses, too high or too low. I think it's ok in SNT but when we're doing applications is when it seems to go wrong.

Do you guys have any great tips or insights that can help flick the switch so the light bulb comes on for me?

I'm a WT student, just started on Chum Kiu to give you an idea of where I'm at and how much I've still got to learn.

I will of course ask my teacher when I can, but haven't got class again till next week so thought it was worth a shot

 

[geezer]

The WT bong-sau works a little differently than bong in some other lineages. We start training bong with an artificial position (as found in the forms) with the arm bent at 135 degrees, the shoulder relaxed, the elbow rotated fully upwards, and the bridge on the centerline. Another thing to watch for, the upper arm (shoulder to elbow) should be pointing straight forward parallel to the centerline, and not angled outward like a chicken wing. This will give you some parameters to check your positioning.

Now the catch is that this position isn't really bong-sau at all. Bong-sau is what happens when your opponent's force bends your arm like a springy piece of rattan, and rolls it over so that the bow of the spring bends upward. This is the real, dynamic bong-sau as conceived in the WT system. It is what happens when your attacking hand meets and is "deformed" by opposing pressure. It must be very elastic and constantly press forward like a bent spring. It's height and angle all depend on the pressure you receive so the position in the form is just a sort of generic guide. When you get a little further into chi-sau this will become apparent.

BTW I'm "ex WT". I had a great conversation tonight with a local WT guy. (Shhh. They really shouldn't be talking to exiles like me) Apparently he's off to take a seminar with LT down at WP's school in San Antonio this weekend. Maybe your sifu is going?

 

[yak sao]

Bong sau is not easy. Part of the problem is developing proper shoulder flexibility, which comes in part, from practicing bong sau.
A common mistake is lifting the bong sau. Don't think of your bong sau as lifting, instead think of it spiraling forward within the 135 degree angle that geezer described.

Initially think of your middle finger as being a drill bit and drilling into the air as your arm moves forward in space. Once you've got the concept, get the focus off of your hand and think of the forearm/elbow, but continue with the spiraling motion.

Checkpoints: Shoulder and elbow are on the same plane. as if up against the wall. The wrist is on the center line, not the actual wrist joint but about 2 finger widths up from the styloid process ( the bony prominence on the pinky side of your forearm.)
Hand is relaxed.
After oh, 1000 or so repititions in the air and a few hours of poon sau it starts to come together.

 

[yak sao]

BTW I'm "ex WT". I had a great conversation tonight with a local WT guy. (Shhh. They really shouldn't be talking to exiles like me) Apparently he's off to take a seminar with LT down at WP's school in San Antonio this weekend. Maybe your sifu is going?

I'm telling!.....oh wait...I'm an exile too.

 

[Vajramusti]

Bong sao is a superb wing chun motion- not a fixed shape-not easy to learn. If you have a good teacher better to ask him first
rather than depend on net talk in early stages.

 

[Danny T]

Bong Sao is not easy to develop but is an excellent movement. Can be created by the opponent's force, can be created by your force. Will take time and a lot of proper practice to develop it correctly. Get with your instructor or a senior student for the particulars of the movement, position, and follow up.

 

[almost a ghost]

Don't sweat it.

There's the pendulum effect you'll have to deal with in learning Wing Chun. You're too tense one class and too relaxed the next, and the next week your too tense but less so, and the next class you are too relaxed but less so, and so on and so on until you've found your balance that works for you.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

Thanks guys, some great and helpful replies there.

Especially Geezer and Yak Sao for the conceptual & technical details. Also good to know it's generally considered not easy to master, don't feel quite so stupid now!

My form version seems pretty much there from Geezer's description, I was only introduced to poon sau a few weeks ago and only done it that one time so far, but hopefully as I get to do more it will come together.

I doubt my sifu will be attending with GGM LT this weekend as we're in the UK and pretty sure he'd have announced it if he was going

 

[geezer]

Thanks guys, some great and helpful replies there.

Especially Geezer and Yak Sao for the conceptual & technical details. Also good to know it's generally considered not easy to master, don't feel quite so stupid now!

Funny how WT/WC makes all of us feel like dummies sometimes. Anyway, here is a video of Sifu Alex Richter (another WT exile) explaining the basic WT take on bong-sau.

 

[Danny T]

Funny how WT/WC makes all of us feel like dummies sometimes.

Absolutely.

Anyway, here is a video of Sifu Alex Richter (another WT exile) explaining the basic WT take on bong-sau.

How to Do Bong Sau aka Wing Hand | Wing Chun - YouTube

This is how we teach it as a basic. The pressure is from the opponent. As one advances the pressure can be driven by you as well.

 

[geezer]

Absolutely.



This is how we teach it as a basic. The pressure is from the opponent. As one advances the pressure can be driven by you as well.

Absolutely.

 

[wingchun100]

The good news is two fold: 1) You will hardly use bong sao because it is not the kind of block anyone would start with. It is transitional. I have heard it said this way, "Bong sao 'happens.'" 2) If you can get the hardest block we do pretty good, then everything else should seem like cake afterward!

 

[jhexx]

bong sao can be what seems like a simple defensive/deflective block, but in time as you find the balance between flexibilty and using forward drive, strength and footwork, it can be quite an interesting move to use. the best part to me is the self discovery behind alot of the learning process. the other day i had learned to use a bong as more of an offensive way towards pushing an opponent back using forward intent with focus on the forearm and elbow. that in cojunction with footwork moving forward with my weight into a slight sinking position, thrusting a bong forward can push an opponent backwards. it was pretty cool to see it work that way!

 

[geezer]

bong sao can be what seems like a simple defensive/deflective block, but in time as you find the balance between flexibilty and using forward drive, strength and footwork, it can be quite an interesting move to use. the best part to me is the self discovery behind alot of the learning process. the other day i had learned to use a bong as more of an offensive way towards pushing an opponent back using forward intent with focus on the forearm and elbow. that in cojunction with footwork moving forward with my weight into a slight sinking position, thrusting a bong forward can push an opponent backwards. it was pretty cool to see it work that way!

Many use bong offensively in this manner. In fact my old Sifu told you he demonstrated this kind of bong when he trained with Grandmaster Yip Man. Yip Man may well have used bong this way himself when he was young. But this was in the Grandmasters final years and that frail stage of his life he discounted that hard method, saying that the "true" use of bong was not forceful but soft, yielding and deflecting. Accordingly this has become the main way to enploy a bong-sau in our association.

 

[LFJ]

Accordingly this has become the main way to enploy a bong-sau in our association.

Like a frail, cancer-stricken old man on the brink of death?

There is more than one claim that Yip Man revealed the "true" version of _ing _un to a special student before he died. Good marketing perhaps, and great timing with Yip Man being unable to confirm or deny the claims. I tend not to accept that kind of thing though. It is entirely illogical that one man would have taught such vastly different systems to select students in secret.

In any case, there is no reason an old man should be unable to apply an aggressive bong-sau, as it takes very little force to displace laterally and it should never go forward to meet force head-on anyway. So there is even less of a reason for an able-bodied person to need to be soft and yielding with it.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Many use bong offensively in this manner. In fact my old Sifu told you he demonstrated this kind of bong when he trained with Grandmaster Yip Man. Yip Man may well have used bong this way himself when he was young. But this was in the Grandmasters final years and that frail stage of his life he discounted that hard method, saying that the "true" use of bong was not forceful but soft, yielding and deflecting. Accordingly this has become the main way to enploy a bong-sau in our association.

My SiFu emphasizes this soft / yielding nature of Bong, so I am inclined to agree with this. His explanation of it in practice is that Bong has to be responsive to the opponent's force; i.e. send your hands out looking to strike and our opponent's force creates the need for Bong. To just throw it out is anticipating rather than reacting. This seems unnecessary andd less efficient since there ARE other more aggressive movements within the system to use in place of Bong Sau if we were able to anticipate attack and be ahead of the incoming force like that.

 

[KPM]

My SiFu emphasizes this soft / yielding nature of Bong, so I am inclined to agree with this. His explanation of it in practice is that Bong has to be responsive to the opponent's force; i.e. send your hands out looking to strike and our opponent's force creates the need for Bong. To just throw it out is anticipating rather than reacting. This seems unnecessary andd less efficient since there ARE other more aggressive movements within the system to use in place of Bong Sau if we were able to anticipate attack and be ahead of the incoming force like that.

I agree with this. But this doesn't necessarily make it "soft" or "yielding." You send your hands out looking to strike and your opponent's force crosses your arm and creates the need to Bong. But there is no reason why you cannot continue your forward intent at this point, moving into the opponent's center to disrupt his balance and break his structure as you immediately go into a Lop and punch. Pin Sun even has a "Got Bong" or "cutting Bong" that is very close to being a diagonal elbow strike. It collapses as it yields to the force and folds inward. But at the same time the elbow is going forward to either strike the opponent or trap his limb momentarily. It is done with forward motion. I wouldn't exactly call it "soft." ;-)

 

[PiedmontChun]

I agree with this. But this doesn't necessarily make it "soft" or "yielding." You send your hands out looking to strike and your opponent's force crosses your arm and creates the need to Bong. But there is no reason why you cannot continue your forward intent at this point, moving into the opponent's center to disrupt his balance and break his structure as you immediately go into a Lop and punch. Pin Sun even has a "Got Bong" or "cutting Bong" that is very close to being a diagonal elbow strike. It collapses as it yields to the force and folds inward. But at the same time the elbow is going forward to either strike the opponent or trap his limb momentarily. It is done with forward motion. I wouldn't exactly call it "soft." ;-)

It might be splitting hairs on we are saying "soft" means. I don't take it to mean the forward intent or angle of the elbow is compromised at all. I take it to mean sensitive or yielding enough to actually respond to the incoming force and dissipate it.

My sifu tests student's Bong by pressing on their wrist; it should not take great effort for the defender's elbow to instinctively rise and form Bong Sau. Only the slightest pressure for you to roll to Bong Sau otherwise you aren't yielding enough. Likewise, he is testing to see if the angle of the elbow maintains its angle (i.e. not collapsing) and forward pressure, and if they pivot accordingly when enough force is being given, etc. Maybe I am in over my head trying to speak for it, but I think our Bong is taught as a means of dissipating force, not something that disrupts the opponent's balance or structure or to be wedged forward into the opponent. Other movements, or even just a punch and step, accomplish that much better.


We also don't Lop Sau. We punch over the Bong since its generally deflecting at low enough height that simply punching over it would be the most direct and efficient way to strike. If the force is great enough to force you to pivot with Bong to disipate the force, then we might Fook toward the center to pin that hand and punch over it. But we don't Lop. If no pivot is needed, and someone truly leaves their punch "hanging" out there long enough you could grab it with Lop Sau then punch in a 1-2 fashion, then you can just as easily punch over the Bong from your back hand, then pull / grab their hand as your punch retreats just the same. This way the guy gets a punch from the back and then your front hand versus just a Lop and then punch.

 

[KPM]

My sifu tests student's Bong by pressing on their wrist; it should not take great effort for the defender's elbow to instinctively rise and form Bong Sau. Only the slightest pressure for you to roll to Bong Sau otherwise you aren't yielding enough.

---If that is the standard, then nearly every Wing Chun defensive move should be "soft."

our Bong is taught as a means of dissipating force, not something that disrupts the opponent's balance or structure or to be wedged forward into the opponent. Other movements, or even just a punch and step, accomplish that much better.

---I don't think that is true. Otherwise you would be doing them instead Bong. We have only done a Bong because the opponent has dictated it, remember? So if the opponent has put you in Bong, how would some other movement be better in that position for disrupting the opponent's balance or breaking his structure? His arm is over yours. So you Bong. How would a step and punch work better in this situation?


We also don't Lop Sau.

---Don't misunderstand me. When I say Lop Sau, I'm not talking about a "grab on and hold him till the cows come home." I'm talking about a very brief contact that simply moves his arm off-line. We don't grab in Pin Sun.

---Bong can be used in many ways with various energies. Limiting it to just one isn't a very good idea in my mind.

 

[PiedmontChun]

My sifu tests student's Bong by pressing on their wrist; it should not take great effort for the defender's elbow to instinctively rise and form Bong Sau. Only the slightest pressure for you to roll to Bong Sau otherwise you aren't yielding enough.

---If that is the standard, then nearly every Wing Chun defensive move should be "soft."

our Bong is taught as a means of dissipating force, not something that disrupts the opponent's balance or structure or to be wedged forward into the opponent. Other movements, or even just a punch and step, accomplish that much better.

---I don't think that is true. Otherwise you would be doing them instead Bong. We have only done a Bong because the opponent has dictated it, remember? So if the opponent has put you in Bong, how would some other movement be better in that position for disrupting the opponent's balance or breaking his structure? His arm is over yours. So you Bong. How would a step and punch work better in this situation?


We also don't Lop Sau.

---Don't misunderstand me. When I say Lop Sau, I'm not talking about a "grab on and hold him till the cows come home." I'm talking about a very brief contact that simply moves his arm off-line. We don't grab in Pin Sun.

---Bong can be used in many ways with various energies. Limiting it to just one isn't a very good idea in my mind.

1) And? All WC movements should be yielding to some extent yes? I think maybe you take issue with using the word "soft". We might be saying the same thing but describing it differently.
2) I meant there are other movements that are more suited to being aggressive or for breaking into someone's structure than Bong Sau. Mostly because it will collapse when other movements will not, but also that by nature it want to dissipate force ACROSS the centreline, so why make it do something it's not by nature best suited for? If you have been forced into Bong Sau as the most logical response, then thats where you are.
3) I know the Lop is common. I'm not criticizing it. Just sayin I was taught to punch when the way was clear and try and pull something back leaving.
4) I'm referring to the Bong Sau with it's artificial position from SNT and it's most common usage. Bong Sau exists in other usages, no doubt. Not limiting it at all. I do think the Cutting or downward Bong you mentioned is called a Kneeling Elbow by some in the WT system.