Step Through Punches NEVER Happen

Thesemindz

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I just wanted to post this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvITXBxB3kk

I posted it in another thread, but I thought it deserved a thread of it's own.

We here a lot of people say that you never see step through punches in a real fight. Yet, here are two untrained amateurs in what is essentially a boxing match throwing numerous step through punches.

And in this fight with a security guard versus a skater, you see several.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY2ApxDdBAY

In this fight, you see the combatants use step through punches several times with accompanying kicks. So each time they step through with the punch, they throw a front or wheel kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbEhk8zy6uU

And in this video, the white fighter repeatedly stalks his opponent with step through punches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghow220eDtA&feature=related

So what do you guys think? It seems to me, that untrained fighters throw these kinds of punches and strikes a lot. It seems like a natural outgrowth of moving and striking in combatants that don't know any better.

Anybody else got a take?


-Rob
 

seasoned

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We call it a lunge punch, is this what you mean?
 

searcher

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My take is, it is better to be prepared for as many different attacks as possible.

I know we cannot prepare for every possibility, but we must do our best. And most fights I have witnessed or taken part in on the streets had guys throwing some crazy step-through haymakers for the most part.
 
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Thesemindz

Thesemindz

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We call it a lunge punch, is this what you mean?

Yes. I am referring to a punch that is accompanied by the same side foot moving from the rear to the front position.

Many people argue that one of the primary problems with martial arts training is that too much emphasis is put on defending against these types of attacks, because they rarely if ever occur in real life.

From what I've seen, they occur fairly often. I think the problem isn't the amount of training against these attacks, it's the dearth of training in some systems against regular jabs and crosses.


-Rob
 

terryl965

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I say that most MA'ers train in al aeras of attrack or atleast they should. I know I do and I will continue to add everything I can learn even though the possibility of me fighting is very slim at my age.
 

DavidCC

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I just wanted to post this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvITXBxB3kk

I posted it in another thread, but I thought it deserved a thread of it's own.

We here a lot of people say that you never see step through punches in a real fight. Yet, here are two untrained amateurs in what is essentially a boxing match throwing numerous step through punches.

And in this fight with a security guard versus a skater, you see several.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY2ApxDdBAY

In this fight, you see the combatants use step through punches several times with accompanying kicks. So each time they step through with the punch, they throw a front or wheel kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbEhk8zy6uU

And in this video, the white fighter repeatedly stalks his opponent with step through punches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghow220eDtA&feature=related

So what do you guys think? It seems to me, that untrained fighters throw these kinds of punches and strikes a lot. It seems like a natural outgrowth of moving and striking in combatants that don't know any better.

Anybody else got a take?


-Rob

I think there is a difference between the "karate punch", a type of step-thru that is widely criticized, and the kinds of punches you've shown. Mainly in the timing of the feet and the use of the weight/momentum.
 
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Thesemindz

Thesemindz

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I think there is a difference between the "karate punch", a type of step-thru that is widely criticized, and the kinds of punches you've shown. Mainly in the timing of the feet and the use of the weight/momentum.

I agree. But a good instructor should be pointing out that any static training exercise performed in the studio becomes a much more dynamic situation "on the street."

So while I agree that what is shown in the video isn't the standard karate studio step through punch, they are still examples of what step through punches are designed to teach.

At least that's how I see it.


-Rob
 

Raynac

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well of course people are going to throw step though punches if they havn't been trained. how else are you supposed to deliever a haymaker! your gonna throw your whole body into and walk forward trying to drive that fist as far as you can into the opponent.

exsecially in that first video where the boxers had a bit of weight behind them, its narutal that they are going to use that mass to gain power and momentum. even if thats not somthing their thinking of on a conscience level, its in the subconscience somewhere.
 

jarrod

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you don't just have to look at untrained fighters to see this, in his prime mike tyson would often close with a lunging punch. it's not classic boxing but it certainly worked for him.


at :27 with an uppercut


at :27 with a hook

1:24 with a right hook

1:49 beautiful lunging hook

jf
 
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sgtmac_46

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Yes. I am referring to a punch that is accompanied by the same side foot moving from the rear to the front position.

Many people argue that one of the primary problems with martial arts training is that too much emphasis is put on defending against these types of attacks, because they rarely if ever occur in real life.

From what I've seen, they occur fairly often. I think the problem isn't the amount of training against these attacks, it's the dearth of training in some systems against regular jabs and crosses.


-Rob
Who's saying that they don't happen in real life? Obviously someone who's never seen a bar fight!
 

sgtmac_46

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I agree. But a good instructor should be pointing out that any static training exercise performed in the studio becomes a much more dynamic situation "on the street."

So while I agree that what is shown in the video isn't the standard karate studio step through punch, they are still examples of what step through punches are designed to teach.

At least that's how I see it.


-Rob
Wouldn't the best way of providing examples of what a step through punch is designed to teach be putting on some gloves and headgear and sparring with it?
 

MJS

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IMHO, I think defenses should be trained against people who step and those who dont step. We will most likely have to adapt to those that don't step, but I don't feel that should really be a huge issue.

As far as the static training goes...I think that anything that we learn needs to first be done static. Once the basics are understood, then movement needs to be added in. So, in other words, while you're doing your defense, the opponent needs to move, try to counter you, change attacks, etc.

Good stuff and keeps the training real. :)
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Who's saying that they don't happen in real life? Obviously someone who's never seen a bar fight!
I saw an entire thread on B-Shido that ragged on Taijutsu for teaching the lunge punch, with people stating that it woudn't/coudn't work in real life, or simply never occured outside of the dojo. They cited that it was too slow to be effective.

I find that there is a good amount of assumed 'never happens in a real fight/always happens in a real fight' beliefs that probably have more basis in watching UFC or other similar venues than they do in actual fights between untrained or non-professional fighters.

Things like, "all fights go to the ground" or "80-90% of all fights go to the ground", a figure I have yet to see backed up with any statistic by anyone, anywhere for as long as I've heard the comment made. A phenomenon that I have not observed. I haven't seen a fight go to the ground in real life more than once or twice after about the sixth grade. Doesn't mean that no fights or few fights go to the ground, but I seriously doubt that the number is anywhere near as high as eigty percent, and probably well under fifty. Yet everyone seems absolutely intent upon training for that specific eventuality.

That estimation is a guess, by the way, and I have no means of supporting that number before you even bother asking.

The other extreme was when I was young, everyone I knew outside of karate trained to defend against jabs and punches because nobody kicked in a real fight (yeah, right). I was told that I shouldn't train in karate because nobody kicked and boxing had better punches. That may be more specific to my neighborhood, but it was equally stupid.

The same guys that said that people don't kick all would complain about how some @**%& jerk had kicked them in the groin and what a cheap shot that was.

Anyway, I've run on as usual. Shutting up now.

Daniel
 

punisher73

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I saw an entire thread on B-Shido that ragged on Taijutsu for teaching the lunge punch, with people stating that it woudn't/coudn't work in real life, or simply never occured outside of the dojo. They cited that it was too slow to be effective.

I find that there is a good amount of assumed 'never happens in a real fight/always happens in a real fight' beliefs that probably have more basis in watching UFC or other similar venues than they do in actual fights between untrained or non-professional fighters.

Things like, "all fights go to the ground" or "80-90% of all fights go to the ground", a figure I have yet to see backed up with any statistic by anyone, anywhere for as long as I've heard the comment made. A phenomenon that I have not observed. I haven't seen a fight go to the ground in real life more than once or twice after about the sixth grade. Doesn't mean that no fights or few fights go to the ground, but I seriously doubt that the number is anywhere near as high as eigty percent, and probably well under fifty. Yet everyone seems absolutely intent upon training for that specific eventuality.

That estimation is a guess, by the way, and I have no means of supporting that number before you even bother asking.

The other extreme was when I was young, everyone I knew outside of karate trained to defend against jabs and punches because nobody kicked in a real fight (yeah, right). I was told that I shouldn't train in karate because nobody kicked and boxing had better punches. That may be more specific to my neighborhood, but it was equally stupid.

The same guys that said that people don't kick all would complain about how some @**%& jerk had kicked them in the groin and what a cheap shot that was.

Anyway, I've run on as usual. Shutting up now.

Daniel

That's true most people who talk about what happens in a "real fight" base it on backyard brawls (ie: Kimbo Slice) where both people are agreeing to it, or the MMA, again where both people are agreeing to it. Most people determine "real" as what a boxer does in the ring, so everyone is going to be using jabs to set the distance and then use a right cross. They tend to forget what happens when two people are really ticked at each other and the training goes out the window.

The 90% of fights go to the ground was a statistic that the Gracies first used to market their style. It was based on an LAPD use of force study they conducted. The problem with the study is that it is based on the fact that LEO's are trained to take the bad guy down to cuff 'em. It might be better to say that 90% of the fights go to the ground when one person is trained to take it there and really wants to go there.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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The 90% of fights go to the ground was a statistic that the Gracies first used to market their style. It was based on an LAPD use of force study they conducted. The problem with the study is that it is based on the fact that LEO's are trained to take the bad guy down to cuff 'em. It might be better to say that 90% of the fights go to the ground when one person is trained to take it there and really wants to go there.
Thanks! Now I actually know where the statistic came from. Sounds like better way of phrasing it would be '90% of all arrests involving a resisting suspect go to the ground.'

Daniel
 

BrandonLucas

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This is where I disagree with step sparring. An opponent is constantly moving, and is not simply going to leave a punch for you to counter. In all of those videos, the punches were always followed up by some type of movement, whether it was forward movement, backward movement, or another attack like a puch or kick that immediately followed the first punch.

The only way to train to defend this is to spar a live, resisting opponent in "real" time.

No 2 attacks or defenses are exactly the same. You can't plan on what you're going to counter an attack with before it happens, because the attack will never be thrown the same way twice.
 

bluekey88

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I don't have a problem with step sparring so long as that first reaction to the attack is one that disrupts the attacks ability to follow up (by damagin vital spots, disrupting balance, etc.)

One-steps are a first step....then comes increasing intensity and resistance up through the full on sparring stage. One steps help, when done properly, with getting the angles, distance, etc down. Again though, that's a first step...nto an end in and of itself.

Peace,
Erik
 

punisher73

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This is where I disagree with step sparring. An opponent is constantly moving, and is not simply going to leave a punch for you to counter. In all of those videos, the punches were always followed up by some type of movement, whether it was forward movement, backward movement, or another attack like a puch or kick that immediately followed the first punch.

The only way to train to defend this is to spar a live, resisting opponent in "real" time.

No 2 attacks or defenses are exactly the same. You can't plan on what you're going to counter an attack with before it happens, because the attack will never be thrown the same way twice.

As most people train them, you are probably correct. But, if you understand what ippon kumite is supposed to teach then you would see their worth in street application.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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This is where I disagree with step sparring. An opponent is constantly moving, and is not simply going to leave a punch for you to counter. In all of those videos, the punches were always followed up by some type of movement, whether it was forward movement, backward movement, or another attack like a puch or kick that immediately followed the first punch.

The only way to train to defend this is to spar a live, resisting opponent in "real" time.

No 2 attacks or defenses are exactly the same. You can't plan on what you're going to counter an attack with before it happens, because the attack will never be thrown the same way twice.
While I agree with you, step sparring isn't the same thing as a 'Step Through Punch.'

In an actual fight, a lunge attack of any sort will not end with the attacker static unless they've radically overextended themselves and lost ballance.

Step sparring is generally done to teach a student the mechanics of a technique, and then the student can apply the technique in live sparring, be it kumite, kyorugi, or whatever your art calls it.

This is a huge disconnect in Taekwondo, as the often the live sparring rules make many of the things a student learns in step sparring useless.

Daniel
 

BrandonLucas

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As most people train them, you are probably correct. But, if you understand what ippon kumite is supposed to teach then you would see their worth in street application.

Understanding their application is one thing, but understanding how to adapt the application is something else.

That's what alot of people get hung up on...the fact that the techniques seem so rigid, and lack realism. I agree that you do learn good and valid techniques that way, but it should also be taught how to be flexible with the techniques in case the attack is not performed the way you were taught to counter.
 

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