Staying On Your Feet

[Andrew Green]

A striker doesn't need to know how to fight on the ground (although I still highly recommend it for everyone) he just needs to know how to stay on his feet.

Yup, which means having some good wrestling skills.

I do think that all things being equal a pure grappling stylist has an advantage over a pure striking stylist. SImply because a grappler trains to get people that want to be on there feet (and have good skills to stay there) on there back. A striker generally does not train how to stay on there feet when someone has even medicore takedown skills.

 

[Adept]

Yup, which means having some good wrestling skills.

Yup.

I do think that all things being equal a pure grappling stylist has an advantage over a pure striking stylist. SImply because a grappler trains to get people that want to be on there feet (and have good skills to stay there) on there back. A striker generally does not train how to stay on there feet when someone has even medicore takedown skills.

Well, it depends if we're talking self defense or competition.

 

[Andrew Green]

Well, it depends if we're talking self defense or competition.

Well, I figure if you're doing it for self-defence why spend years learning to fight people that don't know what they are doing? Might as well train to fight people that do, then if they don't its that much easier...

 

[TKDKid]

Absolutely, which relates back to what you were saying before. The striker wants to stay upright, and the grappler wants to go to the ground. Whoever is the better fighter will take it where they want it to go, and usually win.

A striker doesn't need to know how to fight on the ground (although I still highly recommend it for everyone) he just needs to know how to stay on his feet.

This is what I believe to be true. Whoever's better at their art get's their way. I also agree that a stand up fighter should have ground fighting sklls (and numchuck skills, and computer hacking skills ), but how many people who try and attack you on the street to rob you, just for the fun of hurting someone, etc... have any training at all? I'm willing to bet very few.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I think it depends on what you mean by 'purist'. if by 'pursit' you mean an artist who only trains to fight against people attacking them in like manner..well that only really happes in sport competition anyway so it's kinda an even thing. I mean, a striking purist will not train against shoots and a grappling purist will not traing against kicks to the face so... I saw some Judo matches last weekend and they had some really nice takedowns but none of them were trying to punch or kick

If by 'purist' you mean 'one who only trains in there art, but trains for general s-d/combat', then I think *anyone* if going to train their art against any kind of attack. A TKDist will train to use defenseive footwork and hand stikes against a shoot. A grappler will train to use traps, and evasions etc...against kicks and punches.

There's a difference between training in another art and training to use your art effectivevly against a full range of attacks. For example, the move I saw in the match, the defense against the double-leg attempt, the arm and shoulder motion of the left arm of the defender was the same motion as a palm heel block. The more I leatn TKD as a defense art, the more I realize how many of the basic arm and body motions can carry over into a wide range of attacks.

I mean, in both matches I watched lst night, the attackers trying to shoot in must've *really* sucked because the defenders who were trying to keep the fight on the feet were pretty good at not allowing the takedown to work (if it's your contention that a well trained striker cannot hold against even mediocre takedown skills). The one time that that shoot seemed to actually go to the ground is when the defender used his defensive motion to spin the attacker over and the attacker went down on his back and started to get abused from above. I have a feeling it's because the guys who defended and stayed up striking simply trained to do so; and in the end, the better training, the better execution, won out. Not superior techniques but superiour execution of techniques.

A smart striker will train to defend against a grappler's takedown, if he is traiining for street defense. A smart grappler will train to defend against a striker's attack, in like manner. A striker who does not train against takedowns is either optimistic, naive, or only doing it for sport within his own art.

In other words, I disagree with your contention that "a grappler trains to get people down...a striker doesn't train to prevent takedowns". To be successful in life, in self-defense, a striker had *better* train to prevent takedowns, and in the end, it's the training and execution that will prove out

 

[FearlessFreep]

how many people who try and attack you on the street to rob you, just for the fun of hurting someone, etc... have any training at all? I'm willing to bet very few

I made that kind of remark to my instructor, but his response was that you never know how good the person you are facing is, so best not to make that assumption.

The thing is, since you are doing TKD. TKD as a full martial art has a *lot* of moves that are not used in competition. A few weeks ago we talked here about the self-defense applications within the fine moves of poomse, for example. If you have your heart set on TKD, find someone who teaches it for self-defense who will show you how to use the full range of the art in defensive situations against varioes kinds of attacks

 

[arnisador]

I agree with those who are advocating some level of grappling training, be it wrestling or what have you, for just about anyone. Do a few years of BJJ or wrestling, just-in-case!

 

[Adept]

Well, I figure if you're doing it for self-defence why spend years learning to fight people that don't know what they are doing? Might as well train to fight people that do, then if they don't its that much easier...

What I meant was in terms of staying upright or on the ground. Sure, a grappler trains to take unwilling people to the ground, but how useful is that when you are rolling around in broken glass trying to put someone in an armbar while six of his mates are practicing their tapdancing on your face?

In terms of self defense, it would be an extremely unlikely scenario where I would want to go to the ground, even if that was what I was trained for.

 

[FearlessFreep]

when you are rolling around in broken glass trying to put someone in an armbar while six of his mates are practicing their tapdancing on your face?

Those are two of the three reasons I've been of the mindset that going to the ground is a situation to prepare first to prevent if at all possible. Train to prevent it first, train to get out of it second, then train to do it as a last resort position.

1) Dangerous Terrain
2) Multiple Attackers
3) Weapons

 

[Andrew Green]

What I meant was in terms of staying upright or on the ground. Sure, a grappler trains to take unwilling people to the ground, but how useful is that when you are rolling around in broken glass trying to put someone in an armbar while six of his mates are practicing their tapdancing on your face?

I've never been able to figure out why it is always assumed that everyone has friends, except Martial Arts practitioners. It seems we never get any friends...

Rolling around on the broken glass... Again, not sure why this always comes up. Perhaps its just where I live, but I got to look for quite a while to find a area covered in broken glass... Not to mention the fact that the other guy would be in between the grappler and the ground...

In terms of self defense, it would be an extremely unlikely scenario where I would want to go to the ground, even if that was what I was trained for.

I think the extrememly unlikely scenario is being out numbered 7 to 1 in a area that is covered in broken glass

And the very unlikely scenario is getting into any sort of fight outside of a martial arts class...

 

[FearlessFreep]

Pick a surface where you would rather roll on the ground than standup (not based on training, just based on what the terrain does to yor body)

Rather, pick a surface where you would actually want to roll

Concrete, Asphault, Dirt. Even relatively clean, they are going to be hard against joints and head and they are going to be rough against the skin. Add in the possibility of any debris; glass, trash, rocks, sticks, etc..and it becomes even less attractive.

 

[Adept]

I've never been able to figure out why it is always assumed that everyone has friends, except Martial Arts practitioners. It seems we never get any friends...

Always prepare for the worst.

Rolling around on the broken glass... Again, not sure why this always comes up. Perhaps its just where I live, but I got to look for quite a while to find a area covered in broken glass.

On the street, probably not. But on the bar-room floor? After you've just knocked a table over and a few people have dropped their drinks?

I think the extrememly unlikely scenario is being out numbered 7 to 1 in a area that is covered in broken glass

Sure, but what about the scenario where your attacker has a buddy who is un-occupied, and fighting on a surface that could potentially injure you, such as a street curb, debris, glass, walls and doors, furniture, etc.

You can limit the potential damage from these things by staying on your feet, while at the same time not limiting your defensive options and keeping your retreat options open. Going to the ground forces your attention too much on a single assailant for my liking, and it's extremely difficult to be sure there will only be one assailant.

And the very unlikely scenario is getting into any sort of fight outside of a martial arts class...

Doesn't hurt to be prepared. That's why I practice my self defense, after all.

 

[Andrew Green]

Doesn't hurt to be prepared. That's why I practice my self defense, after all.

Actually I think it can. If all your training is geared towards "defending yourself from evil people" I think that can be very unhealthy. But if that is your thinking then shouldn't you be putting extra effort into fighting off your back, as that is a bad place to be?

A better thing to defend oneself against is diabeties, obescity, bad falls, heart problems, etc. Things that are a much bigger threat to us then getting attacked by 7 strangers... Also a much healthier approach as it doesn't require you to assume that everyone could be out to get you.

 

[Andrew Green]

Pick a surface where you would rather roll on the ground than standup (not based on training, just based on what the terrain does to yor body)

Rather, pick a surface where you would actually want to roll

Concrete, Asphault, Dirt. Even relatively clean, they are going to be hard against joints and head and they are going to be rough against the skin. Add in the possibility of any debris; glass, trash, rocks, sticks, etc..and it becomes even less attractive.

All of those are bad ONLY for the person on the bottom. Which is not going to be the one that is a good grappler... The grappler will be the one riding the other guy in a knee mount (or just a full mount) and punching him in the face... Same as would happen in a ring if one guy had no grappling experience at all.

 

[FearlessFreep]

UFC matches do suggest that even a good grappler will end up on the bottom, or shoved into the environment (both floor on walls) regularly enough not to assume it won't happen

Unless you assume that you are going to be facing someone with no experience at all. Which I think is odds-on *likely* anyway, but not a very safe assumption.

 

[Adept]

Actually I think it can. If all your training is geared towards "defending yourself from evil people" I think that can be very unhealthy. But if that is your thinking then shouldn't you be putting extra effort into fighting off your back, as that is a bad place to be?

I don't mean for people to never learn to fight off their backs, all I'm saying is that personally, I wouldn't deliberately go to the ground in a SD encounter.

A better thing to defend oneself against is diabeties, obescity, bad falls, heart problems, etc. Things that are a much bigger threat to us then getting attacked by 7 strangers... Also a much healthier approach as it doesn't require you to assume that everyone could be out to get you.

Know what happens to paranoid people?

Nothing.

 

[swiftpete]

I've never been able to figure out why it is always assumed that everyone has friends, except Martial Arts practitioners. It seems we never get any friends...

Rolling around on the broken glass... Again, not sure why this always comes up. Perhaps its just where I live, but I got to look for quite a while to find a area covered in broken glass... Not to mention the fact that the other guy would be in between the grappler and the ground...


I think the extrememly unlikely scenario is being out numbered 7 to 1 in a area that is covered in broken glass

QUOTE]
This did make me chuckle out loud i have to admit! But the men that supervise at the local tapdancing school/bottle recycling plant do look a bit of an unruly bunch..