Staying On Your Feet

[TKDKid]

So let's be honest, most street fights, school yard fights, etc..., end up on the ground. I cross train in a few other arts, including Ju-Jitsu, but TKD is my focus, and I'd much rather stay on my feet if I were ever attacked. Not only is that where I'm most comfortable, but if you're tied up with a guy on the ground you're vulnerable to any buddies he might have. I would like to discuss here ways of avoiding take downs so that we have a better idea how to remain where we're the most comfortable.

I will give the first example. Someone charges you football style in order to knock you down.

This is easy enogh, I guess. It's all about timing here. A well placed snap kick or knee to the face/ head should stop your attacker.

What have you guys got?

 

[Blindside]

That would work if your timing is perfect.... and if you KO him, if it isn't you are going down hard. Even if you hurt the guy, his forward momentum is going to carry him into you, at a time when most of your weight is on your back leg. For takedown defenses, I recommend that both feet stay on the ground.

Lamont

 

[Gemini]

Having been a wrestler in my previous life, it was as important to learn how to avoid a takedown as it was to be able to execute one. I agree with the front kick (my personal first choice), but keeping your feet apart and your body leveraged against the attackers momentum is key to keeping on your feet.

 

[thesensei]

So let's be honest, most street fights, school yard fights, etc..., end up on the ground.

Just curious - where's documentation for this "fact?" I've heard many people say this, but it doesn't seem like it has to be true - not if you've trained properly.

As far as avoiding takedowns - An old technique I learned addressed one way of dealing with a tackle: pivot on one foot like a swinging gate allowing the attacker to dive into the place where you *were,* and help him to the ground with a chop to the back of the throat. That's a little bit of a simplistic definition, and will not work in all situations, but it is something to try out!

Good luck in your training.

Salute,
JB

 

[Eldritch Knight]

Elbow to the base of the spine works wonders too. Shorter motion and more power. However, this only works when 1) you know that the tackle is coming, and 2) you are facing the tackler. More likely than not, if someone plans to tackle you, they'll hit you in your blind spot when you least expect it. No way you're going to stay on your feet then. I would hate for all those years of fighting on your feet to go down the drain when you realize how tough groundfighting can be.

 

[Andrew Green]

An old technique I learned addressed one way of dealing with a tackle: pivot on one foot like a swinging gate

I see a switch to a single, or even just a heel pick in your future DOn't leave one leg behind.

---

The worst thing you can do when someone is trying to take you down is to try to kick or knee them. It might work sometimes, but if the guy is at all experienced you usually just made his job a lot easier.

Chopping down on a guy is also a bad idea, to chop down you have to be above him. If you are above him he is under you and you are going to be going up, then down, and hard.


Always stop the takedown first, then start hitting the guy once you have secured a advantaged position in a clinch. But if you try to hit the guy while he is coming at you, you're going to end up on your back.

 

[Adept]

I believe what we are discussing here is a double-leg take down. Where the opponent shoots for your waist, grabbing both of your legs and pushing forward with his shoulders to push you onto your back.

The best working defense for this is the sprawl. When you see the takedown coming, you push your legs out a little, lean forwards with everything you've got, and try to form a tripod, where you are now leaning down on top of your opponent. It is important to brace those legs out so he can't get his arms around them. From here you can go for a choke to the neck, or just try and stay in the clinch until you can break free and get some room.

I think most fights end up on the ground because people aren't experienced in the clinch. They get caught up in a bear hug, or a push-me-pull-you kind of encounter, and then one of them slips and they both go down.

 

[Andrew Green]

Just for clarity...

I believe what we are discussing here is a double-leg take down. Where the opponent shoots for your waist, grabbing both of your legs and pushing forward with his shoulders to push you onto your back.

There are MANY variations to a double leg takedown, this one is fairly low percentage on even moderately experienced fighters. But it is usually the first one a beginner gets taught, and probably one of the most basic.

The best working defense for this is the sprawl. When you see the takedown coming, you push your legs out a little, lean forwards with everything you've got, and try to form a tripod, where you are now leaning down on top of your opponent.

Just remember to change levels FIRST, otherwise it won't work very well. You drop your level meeting him as he comes in, then shoot your legs back and drive your hips into him.

It is important to brace those legs out so he can't get his arms around them. From here you can go for a choke to the neck, or just try and stay in the clinch until you can break free and get some room.

And even more important to stop him with your hips. A common mistake is to think that the sprawl is done with the legs, its not. The level change and the hips are more important as you get skilled people trying to take you down.

I think most fights end up on the ground because people aren't experienced in the clinch. They get caught up in a bear hug, or a push-me-pull-you kind of encounter, and then one of them slips and they both go down.

That I agree too, clinch skills are important, but often ignored.

 

[rutherford]

I've got the search function. Two good threads:

How do fights 'go to the ground'?

Countering

 

[kempo-vjj]

If you can move out of the way great, but sprawling maybe all you end up with. There are some other threads out there on this. Last week we were working this and I found it is important make sure when sprawling lower that weight. Which I did not, I was kinda laying on the back of my sensei, in which he spun underneath me grabbed and arm, and threw me. I was surprised. Another option is to grab for a choke, and drop your own weight down to the ground as they come in. many others as well. check threads.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Even if you hurt the guy, his forward momentum is going to carry him into you, at a time when most of your weight is on your back leg. For takedown defenses, I recommend that both feet stay on the ground.

Not neccessarily.

Amongst other techniques, we practice using a front side sidekick against the knee or stomach to stop an incoming attacker.

The thing is, when a sidekick is executed properly, your back leg pivots around. This causes your body to go in motion, giving you forward momentum against the attacker as well. Also, as you drive into the target, your mass is going forward and you are actually leaning forward a bit...so your rear leg is your support, but your weight it in front pushing back, not over it.

I would not use a front/kick because it's a 'penetrating' kick, not really a 'moving' kick...so the weapon does not have as much mass behind it. Not unless you use foot movement to move into the attack at the point of contact to carry your weight forward (or a hop-to push kick...same idea...get your mass moving against the opponent). However, a sidekick is a moving kick in that is designed to move the opponent because it has your body mass behind the point of contact moving inline with the direction of force.

I've used it, albeit it practice, against my instructor (I'm 5'11" 180lbs...he's about 5'7 240lbs) and the difference between a poorly executed side-kick, without the pivot and without the weight shift, and a correctly executed sidekick, is *huge* in terms of stopping an opponent and maintaining balance in the process.

Yes, like any other technique, it requires very good timing, which means a lot of practice

 

[NotQuiteDead]

If we are talking about a double leg takedown, read my description of it in the last post on the first page of this thread:
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24732&page=1&pp=15

If someone is doing a double leg the right way, you shouldn't have room to kick him. Kneeing isn't the best option, either. My mma coach (who is a good wrestler) got taken down in his last fight when he tried to knee the opponent. He brought his knee up and his opponent grabbed that leg and took him down.

 

[TX_BB]

My favorite if I don't think the attacker is a substantial threat is elbow to face and quickly locking the back of his head with the same hand and help him find something that will stop his fall to the ground like a column, wall or something else substantial.

 

[Han-Mi]

SPRAWL.... HS wrestling comes in handy for defense against takedowns. Just about any tech will work agains takedowns if timed properly, but a good doge cant be replaced.

 

[TKDKid]

Part of our curiculum is learning "defensive kicking," how to use kicks against charging targets. This could be any kind of charge, not neccisarily one meant to take you down. The front legged side kick as mentioned above is one of the ones we practice.

For the side kick we step back, how much depends on the targets speed, and unleash the kick into the target's mid section.

Two others we use are jumping front thrust and jumping roundhouse. Jumping sounds crazy, but especially when your target is unskilled being in the air keeps you upright, as opposed to being on the ground when you strike their momentum will knock you down anyway.

It has been said that the time when you're most vulnerable to being taken down is when you're kicking because you're on one leg. I do not disagree. However I think it comes down alot to who the most skilled fighter is. It was mentioned above that alot of reasons a fight might go to the ground against your will is because of lack of skill in the clinch. I agree with that statement as well. I'm started this thread from a self-defense stand point though. It's pretty unlikely (not impossible however) that you're going to be attacked by anyone with any training on the street. So a classic one arm over, one arm under clinch is also unlikely, though not impossible.

I guess what I'm getting at is how do we use pure Tae Kwon Do techniques (not that any given technique is pure to any one art) in self defense? Most people say it's impossible to do so, that you have to use some aikido/ju-jitsu/grappling with it to be effective. While I think it's most certainly better to add those elements, I don't think it's impossible to use just TKD in self defense and I want to prove that to at least myself.

Don't get me wrong, I believe all arts are equally beneficial in self defense, if you look at my profile you'll see I've got a pretty diverse cross training regime, and it's all for my ability to defend my self and my loved ones, but TKD is my baby and I absolutely hate it when I hear some one say TKD is good for nothing but sport, and I want to do my part to disprove that.

Great discussion so far, let's keep it going!

 

[TX_BB]

TKDKid,

Here's my only problem with your statement it seems your limiting the techniques to the sport techniques of sparring. If you take a broader look many of our self defense techniques are included in our poomse which for all practical purposes are illegal in sparring.

For a sport technique that is very non-forgiving a spinning back kick to the lowered head will generally lead to massive injury.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Since it is agreed that timing is everything, try this if you get the chance with your training partner. When you see the move as he/she comes into you for the takedown, you move into the their move. This does 2 things immediately. 1) It puts you into a braced position ( one leg in front of the other) and 2) The attackers timing gets fouled up. Also, you can catch them before they get into their power position. Try it in practice, you just may be really surprised at what happens. There are additional things that can go along with this move, but you will see that for yourself.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I think most people who don't look at Tae Kwon Do as a fighting martial art and practice it with that in mind while probably say that, but if you train with that in mind...

When I first started out in TKD, I learned basic blocks and punches and kicks and forms and sorta had the same thoughts. "this is all nice but does it really work?" AS I've studied just over the last year, I've realized that a *lot* of what is in basic TKD, the blocks and strikes with the arms, can be used in a lot of close in situations.

Two things you *can* take from sport/sparring are distance and balance. In sparring, maintaining distance and moving into and out of striking distance are crucial. Keep that in mind to maintain distance. Also, in sparring, coming of an attack or evasion with your feet and weight still in balance is very important. Practice that.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

It's pretty unlikely (not impossible however) that you're going to be attacked by anyone with any training on the street. So a classic one arm over, one arm under clinch is also unlikely, though not impossible.

The clinch isn't a position, but a phase of the fight. Sure you might not end up in the over-under clinch, but if you and the opponent are close and holding onto eachother, you're clinching. The over-under clinch is considered neutral because you both have the same options. If you know what you're doing, and the other guy doesn't, you should be in control.

For a sport technique that is very non-forgiving a spinning back kick to the lowered head will generally lead to massive injury.

That's just asking to be taken down.

 

[FearlessFreep]

It all comes down to who executes better. If you are a stiker, then train to be a ery good striker, if wrestler..than do that. A good kick, fast and *hard* to a poor wrestler will work. A bad kick, slow or just tapping, against a good wrestler will not work. Anything else...just depends on howood you are and how good he is.

There are no absolutes. No technique is guarenteed to succeed...or to fail. What are the percentages. A spinning back kick down with a forward weight shift is a very powerful kick....against a standing opponent it's going to move them...against a rushing opponet...well...how fast are they running and how much do they weigh? Maybe that's not the best idea at all times, but it's not always going to be a bad idea, either. Remember your footwork; it's all about staying balanced and in contol. Tae Kwon includes arm motions as well. A slide step to the side with some blocks-as-strikes with the arms may be a better approach.

Best thing to do is to train against the kinds of attacks you may have to face. You can use TKD against a rush or in a clinch...the basic tools are there...just find an instructor to teach you how to use them