Stance for Advantage

[The Contender]

When you are against your opponent, he may be easier to counter and attack. This is because he may not have a grounded stance. He may be off balance. To know when he is off balance is when you find out his or her's fighting attack. He may attack with a kick. Now, he is off balance.

From An Option to attack your opponent to the ground

 

[Buka]

Welcome to Martial Talk, fella'.

 

[drop bear]

That was a surprisingly short and concise blog.

Otherwise sort of.

 

[Gweilo]

Hi and welcome, personally I disagree, unless your opponent steps back into a traditional retreat stance, where the movement becomes obvious, its not always the case, especially when you encounter a counter attacker.

 

[skribs]

I read that really short blog. Have to say I disagree with just about every point made.

1. Anyone who trains fighting trains how to be stable in their footwork, which includes moving forward and backward.
2. While you can knock someone down with a front or side kick, it's not something I would count on. Most people will just be pushed back.
3. While bouncing, we may not have as firm a foundation, but we're light on our feet. It's easy to move into a position where the force won't knock you down. Proper bounce technique is to bounce down, not up, which makes it easier to drop your weight if needed.
4. I have great balance when I'm kicking. This may be true for people from a more punchy art, but from a kick-focused art you're not going to catch them off-balance during a kick. If you do, grabbing the leg and sweeping the other is much better than trying to push them down with a kick (if taking them down is your goal).
5. Going back to point #1, when I switch feet, I'm stable. I've trained to do it and keep my stance.

 

[Gweilo]

While bouncing, we may not have as firm a foundation, but we're light on our feet. It's easy to move into a position where the force won't knock you down. Proper bounce technique is to bounce down, not up, which makes it easier to drop your weight if needed.

Whilst I 90% agree with what you wrote, the bounce as you put it, gives your opponent the opportunity, to attack, just as or before your feet or lead foot, touches down, taking or disrupting your balance.putting you in a vunerable position.

 

[The Contender]

Take a look at the optimal side. A person is less balanced when their foot is off the ground. Also, the fighter will have to out beat their opponent's trained footwork going back or forward. Their stances will not be stable during the exchanges. That is another detail to think about during a fight.

 

[skribs]

Whilst I 90% agree with what you wrote, the bounce as you put it, gives your opponent the opportunity, to attack, just as or before your feet or lead foot, touches down, taking or disrupting your balance.putting you in a vunerable position.

When you bounce properly, your heels go up and down, but your feet stay grounded.

 

[Gweilo]

Leaving the ankles a weak point, we spar, you bounce, I throw a deliberate slightly telegraphed punch, your mind is on the punch, if my distance and timing is coerrect, I drop the punch and strike the ankles or lower leg, on the down.

 

[Gweilo]

All I have to do, is put my footwork in time with yours.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

While bouncing, we may not have as firm a foundation, but we're light on our feet. It's easy to move into a position where the force won't knock you down. Proper bounce technique is to bounce down, not up, which makes it easier to drop your weight if needed.

When you compete in a Judo tournament, if you see your opponent moves his leading leg back, he is going to step in that leg afterward. If you pull him at that moment, not only you can interrupt his next forward step, you can drag him down.

When you bounce up, you have to bounce back down. Your opponent can attack you when you bounce up.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Not knowing what is meant by bounce but i presume the premise for the conclusion is you force them back in a unstable postion as opposed to them lunging in throwing a couple of punches then withdrawing. With my experince of "bouncing" it doesnt innately make you more unstable, its a tool for power generation/continious motion/obstruction (keeping hands/body moving so you dont telegraph as easy or are as easy to counter)

 

[dvcochran]

It became a 'vogue' thing to do in TKD competition around 1990 I would say. My experience tells me it is neither good or bad in the ring. I have won and lost to both styles of fighting. It is usually pretty easy to tell if a person is doing it out of a conditioned habit, as a strategy, or for intimidation. You can also get a gauge on conditioning by the third round on most people. Shoulders/posture drops considerably and the 'bounce' lessens greatly. With few exceptions, I do Not think it has any real timing advantage. If both sides are doing it, maybe. I Do think there can be a power and marginal speed advantage. But most of this is Very TKD sport oriented. I would not recommend doing it in your next bar room conflict.

 

[jobo]

I read that really short blog. Have to say I disagree with just about every point made.

1. Anyone who trains fighting trains how to be stable in their footwork, which includes moving forward and backward.
2. While you can knock someone down with a front or side kick, it's not something I would count on. Most people will just be pushed back.
3. While bouncing, we may not have as firm a foundation, but we're light on our feet. It's easy to move into a position where the force won't knock you down. Proper bounce technique is to bounce down, not up, which makes it easier to drop your weight if needed.
4. I have great balance when I'm kicking. This may be true for people from a more punchy art, but from a kick-focused art you're not going to catch them off-balance during a kick. If you do, grabbing the leg and sweeping the other is much better than trying to push them down with a kick (if taking them down is your goal).
5. Going back to point #1, when I switch feet, I'm stable. I've trained to do it and keep my stance.

im far from convinced that '' bouncing'' isnt an affectation of very little benifit even if its not a significant weak spot, which is probably is anywhere but a tkd tournament..
at the very best its a significant energy drain, and id be tempted to let you bounce up and down till you tire and then move on you

going up onto your toes like a boxer makes you more mobile bu as a trade of for stability, and is also quite tiring which is the reason that boxers only do it in bursts and then mostly as an escape strategy

 

[Yokozuna514]

im far from convinced that '' bouncing'' isnt an affectation of very little benifit even if its not a significant weak spot, which is probably is anywhere but a tkd tournament..
at the very best its a significant energy drain, and id be tempted to let you bounce up and down till you tire and then move on you

going up onto your toes like a boxer makes you more mobile bu as a trade of for stability, and is also quite tiring which is the reason that boxers only do it in bursts and then mostly as an escape strategy

I fought using both strategies and although I do agree with you, Jobo, it requires a higher degree of energy to 'bounce' for the entire match it also allows for more explosive 'in and out' or 'side to side' movement. If you train to bounce while you fight, you are essentially carrying your weight on the balls of your feet, using them like springs to move yourself. It is extremely difficult if not impossible to do this with the weight distributed to the entire foot. The timing and coordination would be completely off.

As I would be considered a heavy weight or light heavy weight, I do find it an advantage to use this tactic on fighters who do not bounce as they are not typically used to dealing with other heavy weights that are more nimble on their feet. If done correctly, a fighter that bounces can look much faster than their opponent but as you said, the energy drain is quite a bit more and so having good cardio is essential to employing this tactic.

As I am getting older and am not competing any longer, I do not use this tactic for an entire match unless it is absolutely necessary. I favour a combination of 'bouncing' and solid footed footwork in most matches now. I still use the 'bounce' when doubling up kicks or when I need to perform a Sabaki movement to get to the side but that is not to say that I prefer it to 'bouncing' for the entire match. The need to 'bounce' for an entire match is not necessarily required for each sparring session I do now.

Finally, I am not sure I would say that 'going up on your toes' gives you less stability. I find my stance typically goes wider when I bounce and have not noticed that I lose any more stability. Maybe I do but I just haven't noticed it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

back in a unstable postion

When your opponent bounce, it's the best time to sweep his leg. In MA, it's called "no rooting".

Your opponent bounces

- up, you step in.
- back down, you sweep his leg.

You bounce up, I step in, you bounce down, I sweep. You bounce up, I step in, you bounce down, I sweep. You bounce up, I step in, you bounce down, I sweep. ...

It's so easy to remember.

 

[CB Jones]

I think bouncing as @scribs pointed out gives you a little more quickness.

Its not really a bounce but just your heals raising.

It keeps you on the balls of your feet and allows you to move quicker.

In baseball, infielders are taught to have their feet moving with the pitch which increases your fielding range and a lot of hitting coaches teach movement in your stance prior to you loading because it makes you faster to the ball.

 

[The Contender]

A runner up step during an opponent's stance change as he moves back would be more effective? I have tried it on sparring, it tends to get people to forget about their stance, but probably they may not be the best martial artists to train with.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Its not really a bounce but just your heals raising.

The best combat stance is a stance that you can spring from it (such as the 3-7 stance - 70% weight on your back leg and 30% weight on your leading leg). You have to compress before you can release. A compress stance a stance that you are ready to do a jumping kick.

This guy uses bounce up and down to warm up. When the fight starts, he just "spring" forward.

 

[jobo]

I fought using both strategies and although I do agree with you, Jobo, it requires a higher degree of energy to 'bounce' for the entire match it also allows for more explosive 'in and out' or 'side to side' movement. If you train to bounce while you fight, you are essentially carrying your weight on the balls of your feet, using them like springs to move yourself. It is extremely difficult if not impossible to do this with the weight distributed to the entire foot. The timing and coordination would be completely off.

As I would be considered a heavy weight or light heavy weight, I do find it an advantage to use this tactic on fighters who do not bounce as they are not typically used to dealing with other heavy weights that are more nimble on their feet. If done correctly, a fighter that bounces can look much faster than their opponent but as you said, the energy drain is quite a bit more and so having good cardio is essential to employing this tactic.

As I am getting older and am not competing any longer, I do not use this tactic for an entire match unless it is absolutely necessary. I favour a combination of 'bouncing' and solid footed footwork in most matches now. I still use the 'bounce' when doubling up kicks or when I need to perform a Sabaki movement to get to the side but that is not to say that I prefer it to 'bouncing' for the entire match. The need to 'bounce' for an entire match is not necessarily required for each sparring session I do now.

Finally, I am not sure I would say that 'going up on your toes' gives you less stability. I find my stance typically goes wider when I bounce and have not noticed that I lose any more stability. Maybe I do but I just haven't noticed it.

well clearly it effects stability, lots of people cant even balance if they go up on there toes, those that can are using their balance to counter act the loss of stability, that much is clearly obvious

going up onto your toes to perform a movement or a series of movements may indeed quicken that movement bouncing up and down as if seen people do, for an extended period with out any actual fast movement seems a pointless waste of energy