Belt system are more for the teacher than the student.

Hot Lunch

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I'm not a fan of martial arts rank conferring any sort of authority over others*.

There is a limited sort of "authority" inherent in being the owner of a school or a teacher of a class. The school owner gets to decide who can attend the school. The instructor in a class gets to decide what material is being taught in class that day, how the class time is structured, and can kick out someone who is being disruptive. (Although I've never had to do that last one so far in all my years of teaching.) But that's down to the role of owner or instructor, not rank. If I (BJJ 3rd degree black belt), attend a class taught by a brown belt, then I am there as a student. I do the same drills and exercises that the teacher has everyone else do. I certainly don't try to override their authority as instructor based on my own rank.

*I'm interpreting the discussion so far regarding authority as meaning "having authority over others" rather than "being an authority (expert) in a subject."

I was talking about this earlier. In ISKF (Shotokan), instructor, judge, and examiner qualifications are separate from rank. There are minimum ranks required for each level of these qualifications, but they are obtained separately from the rank. You can be a nidan and have some of these qualifications, while you can be a yondan and have none.

But, in this case, authority would come with the position and not the rank. Either way, it's not conditional on how well received you are by those under you.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I'm not a fan of martial arts rank conferring any sort of authority over others*.

There is a limited sort of "authority" inherent in being the owner of a school or a teacher of a class. The school owner gets to decide who can attend the school. The instructor in a class gets to decide what material is being taught in class that day, how the class time is structured, and can kick out someone who is being disruptive. (Although I've never had to do that last one so far in all my years of teaching.) But that's down to the role of owner or instructor, not rank. If I (BJJ 3rd degree black belt), attend a class taught by a brown belt, then I am there as a student. I do the same drills and exercises that the teacher has everyone else do. I certainly don't try to override their authority as instructor based on my own rank.

*I'm interpreting the discussion so far regarding authority as meaning "having authority over others" rather than "being an authority (expert) in a subject."
I agree. Organizations need structure, but someone having inherent authority because of their rank seems a bit slapdash.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I was talking about this earlier. In ISKF (Shotokan), instructor, judge, and examiner qualifications are separate from rank. There are minimum ranks required for each level of these qualifications, but they are obtained separately from the rank. You can be a nidan and have some of these qualifications, while you can be a yondan and have none.

But, in this case, authority would come with the position and not the rank. Either way, it's not conditional on how well received you are by those under you.
I like that approach. When I was working out ranks for my system, I had the idea to just stop rank at BB (no ranks within the color), and have a separate certification system for instructors/senior instructors, center entirely around teaching, testing, etc.
 

Taiji Rebel

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Belts, uniforms and grades are for school, universities and commercial dojos. If you run a club they are useful to both teacher and student. They make it easy to recognize levels for teachers and give students an incentive to keep training. One organizations black-belt might not measure up to another's standards. The competency of black-belts vary from dojo to dojo, even in the same style. Old school martial artists, going back before Kano etc. didn't have a need for a belt or grading system - this only came about when they tried to standardize martials arts in order to introduce them to the schools, colleges and universities. If your club or style has belts and a grading system then you will have to play ball and follow suit, if that is not to your liking then find another place to train as not all martial arts styles use belts and grading systems.
 

silent killer

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this only came about when they tried to standardize martials arts in order to introduce them to the schools,
also for money making, true old school styles like
Dait-ry贖 Aiki-j贖jutsu had Fees for training but not like today.
 

Hot Lunch

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or you are respected because you can fight & not because you strut around with a belt ;)
Other than maybe BJJ, if you practice a martial art with a belt ranking system for as long as you should be practicing it, the time before you were a black belt will be small and tiny in comparison to the time that you are a black belt.

When I earned my master's degree, it took maybe about three months for the novelty to wear off. That's 17 years of education. Imagine how quick the novelty of a credential that took 3 to 4 years to earn will wear off.

It sounds like you've had bad experiences with martial arts that have belt ranks.
 

HighKick

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Other than maybe BJJ, if you practice a martial art with a belt ranking system for as long as you should be practicing it, the time before you were a black belt will be small and tiny in comparison to the time that you are a black belt.

When I earned my master's degree, it took maybe about three months for the novelty to wear off. That's 17 years of education. Imagine how quick the novelty of a credential that took 3 to 4 years to earn will wear off.

It sounds like you've had bad experiences with martial arts that have belt ranks.
For clarification, when you say "earned my master's degree", are you referring to a college degree or martial arts degree?

I don't ever remember thinking of my two engineering master's degrees as novelties. I completed them while working a very, very fulltime job as well as other heavy responsibilities, well past the age that most people attend college/university. 'Relief' is more the term that comes to mind when I had finished the programs. There was really no fanfare at all, more of a 'box checked'. Honestly, had I not been so pressed to finish my degree by my company (who paid for everything) I would have never pursued finishing.

As for when I attained 'Master' degree level in the martial arts, I cannot even tell what year that was. I can tell you I attended some of the KKW/TKD required Master Instructor and Referee courses in '15 & '16. Honestly, the M.I. course was Boring, the Referee course was fun and informative. Much of that had to do with who hosted the courses.

I was part of the group of instructors that led a week-long leadership course for MDK in '18 that was much needed and a ton of fun.
 
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JowGaWolf

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sounds like you never served.
Look it up. Talk to people who are responsible for getting people to sign up. When the military tried to recruit me as an officer. Nothing in their letter said Join so you can boss people around. The problem with people who want to boss others around is that they don't like to follow.

But like I was saying. Just look at the military marking. It'll tell you everything you need to know about who the military wants and what is important to those types of people.

It's really difficult to give your life for something that you see no honor in.
 
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silent killer

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If you served in the military, thank you for your service. If you served to earn respect and boss people around, I am certain we would not get along very well.
I got respect because i knew my job & could look after myself.
you see in the military i served in you earned your rank.
 

Hot Lunch

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your assumption is not correct & is merely now past tense.
Oh, it is. You seem to be way too worried about "status" in organizations and other people thinking they're better than you. You see someone with a black belt, you think they're "strutting." You also insist that people do join the military to boss people around (while completely ignoring the fact that there are far easier ways to do this than signing your life away). And this is something that only a disgruntled one-termer would believe.

You have an inferiority complex.
 
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