Belt system are more for the teacher than the student.

gyoja

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obviously i do not know how the US Military handles these things but the British Army has it織s "methods"
Play by big boys rules...it ain織t the boy scouts
Unfortunately, not so much anymore.
 

silent killer

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Unfortunately, not so much anymore.
i remember just stupid stuff like if you looked at someone the wrong way it was "Dumb insolence" & you got jailed & beasted as we called it..lol
I dared to walk over a corner of the Regimental drill square & i got drilled wearing full fighting order. just crazy.
However what i will say is that they did in other ways look after you in that they accepted that boys will be boys.
Maybe you got a talking to by your Sgt, maybe a punch but not charged & fined.
It depended on how they thought about you as a person.
I was no angel & got jailed for drunkeness & fighting but i got off with a blue eye.
 

silent killer

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Getting back to the topic ...no i do not care about a black belt
you can either fight or you can織t.
 

gyoja

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When I trained in Korea, the belt system was definitely used similar to a military ranking system. It may have also been due to the fact that all of the Korean students were current or former military (conscription). In the states, it was used in the way that most have already describe: aid the instructor, give students a goal, etc.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Well said.

I started lining up at the back of the class 3-4 years ago, whether it is at our school or when I visit another school. It has been something of a 'freeing' action. I know I am not as physically capable as I once was, and by lining up in the back, it seems to 'level' the playing field and people see me as just another guy in class.
I never interject in a class unless directly asked or if something gets Very off-track. Even then, it is always done one-on-one and never in front of the class.

I think it is getting lost on some folks that there can be a sense of 'authority' even in a non-structured workout in the park since usually someone has to lead the group. But it is never a word that really comes to mind for me.
It is especially a requirement when it comes to ownership.
There's an natural assumption that whomever is leading the class is the authority, and it spreads from them to the front row, starting at the left, then the back row also starting at the left (facing front). Whether or not that's the case, and there are legitimate reasons for it not to be in some instances, that's the assumption people make.
 

Gerry Seymour

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There's an natural assumption that whomever is leading the class is the authority, and it spreads from them to the front row, starting at the left, then the back row also starting at the left (facing front). Whether or not that's the case, and there are legitimate reasons for it not to be in some instances, that's the assumption people make.
I'm curious about the natural assumption of the direction that authority flows (left-right). Can you elaborate?
 

Hot Lunch

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I'm curious about the natural assumption of the direction that authority flows (left-right). Can you elaborate?
I don't know if this is true, or if it's an "urban myth" (for lack of a better term) that's on par with "black belt originally came from white belts training hard over time and never washing them," BUT...

I'm told that karate (I don't know what style) started this, and students would line up with the lowest students closest to the front door in order of rank to the highest towards the back.

The purpose of this, apparently, was so that if anyone stormed in and challenged the head instructor, he would have to fight all of the students first, from lowest to highest, before he could fight the head instructor.

Some dojos (mine included) do it in the opposite direction. Most senior students to the front. The purpose is so that people walking past the dojo get the better impression when they see the highest ranking students performing.
 

gyoja

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I'm curious about the natural assumption of the direction that authority flows (left-right). Can you elaborate?
This is how it works in the dojangs that I studied in. The students line up by belt and seniority, with the most senior in each line to your left, their right. In Seoul, you can actually see this in a particular plaza with the belt colors on wooden stakes set apart in intervals that is used as a guide for lining up.
 

Dirty Dog

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I don't know if this is true, or if it's an "urban myth" (for lack of a better term) that's on par with "black belt originally came from white belts training hard over time and never washing them," BUT...
That ones pretty obviously nonsense. An unwashed belt doesn't turn black. It turns dirty. Maybe with a little moss or mold...
The purpose of this, apparently, was so that if anyone stormed in and challenged the head instructor, he would have to fight all of the students first, from lowest to highest, before he could fight the head instructor.
Also silly. Why would anyone follow the lines, instead of just walking around them?

There are lots of these myths around.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I don't know if this is true, or if it's an "urban myth" (for lack of a better term) that's on par with "black belt originally came from white belts training hard over time and never washing them," BUT...

I'm told that karate (I don't know what style) started this, and students would line up with the lowest students closest to the front door in order of rank to the highest towards the back.

The purpose of this, apparently, was so that if anyone stormed in and challenged the head instructor, he would have to fight all of the students first, from lowest to highest, before he could fight the head instructor.

Some dojos (mine included) do it in the opposite direction. Most senior students to the front. The purpose is so that people walking past the dojo get the better impression when they see the highest ranking students performing.
Id assumed MTW was talking about beyond the dojo, given the context, as well as the natural assumption.
 

Gerry Seymour

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That ones pretty obviously nonsense. An unwashed belt doesn't turn black. It turns dirty. Maybe with a little moss or mold...

Also silly. Why would anyone follow the lines, instead of just walking around them?

There are lots of these myths around.
Id heard that latter one descended from the Daimyo keeping their longest serving people closest, so it would be difficult to get to the Daimyo by infiltration- youd still have a bunch of supposedly loyal samurai between you. It makes sense, but I dont know if theres any validity to it.
 

Hyoho

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Getting back to the topic ...no i do not care about a black belt
you can either fight or you can織t.
As I said before there are two kinds of Yudansha in Japan. Those that fight well enough to get the grade because they practice daily until they drop. And those that fight off to get on the squad. All natural born fighters we have watched since they were kids and get scholarships to do so.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Id assumed MTW was talking about beyond the dojo, given the context, as well as the natural assumption.
Nope, just badly written on my point. The assumption in every dojo I've been that cares about rankings has been to line up like that. No social or psychological broader assumptions being made that I'm aware of.
 

Dirty Dog

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Nope, just badly written on my point. The assumption in every dojo I've been that cares about rankings has been to line up like that. No social or psychological broader assumptions being made that I'm aware of.
We line up the same way. Senior student at the front left (viewed from the instructors position). The only rationale I've ever given is that it means the people in front of you should be examples. Watch and mimic.
 

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