Sport vs. Street

[jobo]

I think there's an inherent disconnect when cops confuse what they do and the realities they encounter as a part of their jobs, with self defense.

Can the experience that a LEO has inform civilian self defense? Of course. Is it the same? No.

Self defense is contextual. One size doesn't fit all. It's like a single person driving a passenger van to work every day "just in case" they need to take 9 people from point A to point B. Is it possible that this could happen? Well, maybe... but it's highly unlikely. Unless the context changes. Maybe that person is an Uber driver. And if he is, fine. But most people aren't.

Women on a college campus absolutely should learn some self defense. But that self defense isn't going to be cop self defense. It's a different context. And if you live in a dangerous part of town, sure. Self defense might be very appropriate. But that self defense isn't the same as for a college coed or a cop. It's different.

agree, the cops are the ones chasing the mad man with the knife, I'm the one going the other way. If my skills are good enough to evade getting stabbed then have done their job, if he stabbs someone else as they are an easier target that unfortunate for them, but I'm not going to try and disarm him for general public safety, well I might actually, but only coz I'm stupid

 

[JowGaWolf]

Was that a low blow? Ha. But that was my point, your tactic is way too risky. It could work, but I see going 1-1 until it filters down is the way to go. It only takes 1 person getting KO'ed and the fight shifts ridiculously towards the team with 1 more fighter.

Nope not a low blow. lol. I would hope someone that does 5 vs 5 fighting would have developed some kind of awareness that's better than ours. Especially most of us train "forward awareness".

The only problem that I see in MMA is
1. tunnel vision
2. being aware, only to have to answer the question "now what?" being aware is one thing and being able to do something about it is something different.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If you want to talk about flaws, let's talk about how you PRETEND FIGHT with your SD training.

Your whole post is worthless. You don't know me. You don't know how I've trained. You don't know who I've trained. Your post is nothing more than in uneducated rant.

 

[FriedRice]

So would not this "awareness" be able to help change the outcome of a combative encounter outside of the ring?
And, since professionals use have some form of impact training, wouldn't that help keep them from getting Ko'ed.

Yes, all types of training helps, even the lowest, least effective methods of training helps, as anything is better than nothing. And IMO, this makes MMA the highest level of martial arts training for H2H, no weapons; fighting and self defense. I also train Krav Maga for weapons disarming and some Arnis for weapons offense.

 

[FriedRice]

getting hit in the head a lot, gives you long term brain damage. I dont believe that this conditions your brain to not be knocked out if someone hits you very hard

I didn't get that that was what he was saying, good point.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

Your whole post is worthless. You don't know me. You don't know how I've trained. You don't know who I've trained. Your post is nothing more than in uneducated rant.

You do realize that you don't have to comment on , or even read this thread, right?

 

[Martial_Kumite]

getting hit in the head a lot, gives you long term brain damage. I dont believe that this conditions your brain to not be knocked out if someone hits you very hard

What if it is not directly to the skull and more of impacts on the jaw? Would a MA or MMA background and training help?

 

[FriedRice]

This seems like this type of thinking is towards all MASD's. Plus, these ARE two different environments (street and Studio). One is the training and developing, and the other is an adrenalin/fear cocktail induced action. To say that stuff has no actual effect on a street fight based on this idea, makes it seem not completely thought out. Training for SD, you first have to know what you are doing, or you have just as much skill as an average guy off of the streets.

Also (sorry a little off topic) the saying "like apples and oranges" to describe things as different is a little misleading. They are different but they are still fruits.[/QUOTE]

Putting your fist into someone's face, repeatedly at full power until they get KO'ed or go into fetal position is not enough of an adrenalin/fear cocktail, action inducer? This works just the same in the street as it does in the ring. How does pretending to hit someone or just tapping them, whether on mats or on cement, be better than punching them hard to KO them as a method of training?

If these MASD'ers are so adept to these realities, then why do at least 90% of the ones that I spar with, mostly in Krav gyms, can't even get past my jab at only 50-70% power....many turns their head completely away, like it would stop or something. The only ones that do well, are their instructors and only like half of them spars me.

How does any of this negate any part of my skillset? On cement with shoes on and no gloves, I'm just going to be much faster with my footwork and my jabs are going to inflict more damage....but I'll probably just extend my fingers for them eyeballs.

 

[FriedRice]

you are both impressive and scary. Finger push up to better poke eyes. Got to add that to my training

I actually also teach an SD class that's MMA based. And it's about 80% women in there. I toughen them up.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

How does pretending to hit someone or just tapping them, whether on mats or on cement, be better than punching them hard to KO them as a method of training?

Then, is it safe to say that we disagree on the application in the studio?
What I am understanding your point of view to be (plz correct me If I am wrong), is that when training in a studio, people should train like they are trying to ko someone.
This is where I both agree and disagree. I agree because I believe there should be some, at some point, training where people use the majority of their speed and strength. I disagree because one must learn it before putting force behind it. It is similar to the bare hand argument that was a few pages back. I can just go ahead and go full force, no glove on a heavy bag, but I am most likely going to enter my hand or wrist.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

this a reverse of the debate I had on another thread, where folk were insisting they didn't need fitness to defend them selves.

Folks that don't think fitness plays an important part in SD have never been in a serious altercation. Physical fitness has an important role in mitigating injury as well. One does not have to be a world class tri-athlete to successfully defend themselves, but it is a component of proper preparedness.

 

[jobo]

Yes, all types of training helps, even the lowest, least effective methods of training helps, as anything is better than nothing. And IMO, this makes MMA the highest level of martial arts training for H2H, no weapons; fighting and self defense. I also train Krav Maga for weapons disarming and some Arnis for weapons offense.

what makes mma, so effective is that it contains actual fighting and therefore requires/develops real fighting skills and a considerable degree of fitness. That's win win. The down side is that it contains actual fighting. So you are likely to get hit quite a lot, which could give you brain damage and you are likely to get beaten up anyway, which is what sd training is supposed to avoid. Lose lose

 

[FriedRice]

Nope not a low blow. lol. I would hope someone that does 5 vs 5 fighting would have developed some kind of awareness that's better than ours. Especially most of us train "forward awareness".

And I was just kidding. But to nitpick, you said that 5 of your guys would win with your tactics but now you admit that they should be more accustomed to such chaotic environment as they train for this joint. Sorry, I had to.

The only problem that I see in MMA is
1. tunnel vision
2. being aware, only to have to answer the question "now what?" being aware is one thing and being able to do something about it is something different.

Nice video. But I still don't agree with your argument that your tactic is that good. I didn't say it wouldn't work. But in this video, it didn't. Because at the 33 second mark, is when your tactic happened...that 1 Red guy, hung back as his mate was getting 2-1'ed....then he waits for the moment to rush in and sucker punch 1 of the Yellows that were 2-1'ing....but the Yellow being targeted saw it, disengaged...backed up and swung a right hook but missed.

This tactic failed here. But this Red that hung back, seemed to have KO'ed this Yellow...but off camera, as we don't see him after this. It was 1-1. This showed that this Red was probably just better than the Yellow anyway. So in a 1-1 x 5, this Red would have beat his 1-1 fight and now it's 5-4, and pretty much game over for Yellow. Not conclusive but more probable than your deductions.

Speaking for myself, after being in many street fights and a few gang rumbles in the inner city growing up.....when I started training Muay Thai, I was getting beat up by all of the intermediate students (except the women) who never even fought their 1st ring fight yet. Versus beginners my level, I was good so street fighting does help. That was quite an eye opener.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I actually also teach an SD class that's MMA based. And it's about 80% women in there. I toughen them up.

So you 'toughen them up'. Okay, but do you actually know what good self-defense training is? I don't say this sarcastically, but to be blunt, if you're basing this off MMA then you don't know what good self-defense training entails.

Do you;

• Train outside on various surfaces?
• Train outside in dim light conditions?
• Train inside of a vehicle?
• Train between vehicles in the parking lot?
• Train inside of an elevator?
• Train on stairs?
• Train in a cramp hallway where mobility is limited?
• Train to escape/evade/de-escalate?
• Train with the appropriate response to the situation?
• Train with multiple attackers?
• Train with weapons, both conventional and improvised?
• Train with a flinch response methodology?
• Train with the applicable local, state and federal laws governing use-of-force/use-of-deadly-force?
• Train for home deterrence/defense?
• Train for travel defense?

Anyone in traditional or MMA can claim they teach self defense. Few actually know what they're doing. Based on your video and your posts, without sounding mean about it, you don't know what you're doing. Unless you're doing ALL the above plus you're doing your students a grave disservice.

 

[FriedRice]

Your whole post is worthless. You don't know me. You don't know how I've trained. You don't know who I've trained. Your post is nothing more than in uneducated rant.

Do you spar at full power to KO your partner(s) on a regular basis?

I know your type very well.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I think there's an inherent disconnect when cops confuse what they do and the realities they encounter as a part of their jobs, with self defense.

Agreed. Just as there is an inherent disconnect when TMA and MMA confuse what they do with actual SD. Fortunately, there are cops, TMA and MMA that DO know what SD actually is and how to separate it from what is not.

 

[FriedRice]

So you 'toughen them up'. Okay, but do you actually know what good self-defense training is? I don't say this sarcastically, but to be blunt, if you're basing this off MMA then you don't know what good self-defense training entails.

Do you;

• Train outside on various surfaces?
• Train outside in dim light conditions?
• Train inside of a vehicle?
• Train between vehicles in the parking lot?
• Train inside of an elevator?
• Train on stairs?
• Train in a cramp hallway where mobility is limited?
• Train to escape/evade/de-escalate?
• Train with the appropriate response to the situation?
• Train with multiple attackers?
• Train with weapons, both conventional and improvised?
• Train with a flinch response methodology?
• Train with the applicable local, state and federal laws governing use-of-force/use-of-deadly-force?
• Train for home deterrence/defense?
• Train for travel defense?

Anyone in traditional or MMA can claim they teach self defense. Few actually know what they're doing. Based on your video and your posts, without sounding mean about it, you don't know what you're doing. Unless you're doing ALL the above plus you're doing your students a grave disservice.

Yes to all and more...ie. quick drawing at the range, that allows me to. And we train for real, not larping.

Do you include sparring at full power to KO your partners as apart of your training?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Do you spar at full power to KO your partner(s) on a regular basis?

I know your type very well.

No you don't. You don't have the first clue. If you did you wouldn't be making such statements.

.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

Do you include sparring at full power to KO your partners as apart of your training?

I have done impact training with my school. Bacicly, we take turns hitting each other (Not in the head, sorry) and learn how to take a hit, case we are not able to defend from all attacks. Now, this is training with empty hand and is not applicable to flights with sharp objects, but it does help keep us from getting the wind knocked out of us.
It is fun, until you do it wrong.

 

[FriedRice]

Then, is it safe to say that we disagree on the application in the studio?
What I am understanding your point of view to be (plz correct me If I am wrong), is that when training in a studio, people should train like they are trying to ko someone.

Not always at KO power, not even often. But sometimes. It's also very hard to KO equally trained opponents with head shots. I also don't let beginners nor intermediates go full power to the head, only to the body. I do let them go full power to the head vs. me though and I only tap back.

This is where I both agree and disagree. I agree because I believe there should be some, at some point, training where people use the majority of their speed and strength. I disagree because one must learn it before putting force behind it. It is similar to the bare hand argument that was a few pages back. I can just go ahead and go full force, no glove on a heavy bag, but I am most likely going to enter my hand or wrist.

This is one good way for training to pull the power. You can go full speed and technique towards your partner's face, but then pull the power once nearing impact to not hurt them during light to medium sparring. On the bag, you do this to train to not break your wrist and hand if you were w/o gloves.