Sport And TMA....Again

[Chris Parker]

Like this?

Or this?

Or this?

Looks pretty recognizable to me.

Er... not really much to do with SENC-33's point, you realise... but hey, let's look at them anyway.

None of them look much like self defence. The first one is ground, but not BJJ that I saw... really just rather unskilled ground n' pound. There was no position, there were no sweeps, no reversals, no attempts at anything other than the guy on top sitting up and striking, the guy underneath trying to cover up. The second and third were simply challenge fights, with what looked like someone with some training attempting to use competition techniques where they're really not the best plan. The first guy had some skills, sure, but it wasn't anything other than a challenge match (we'll get to what that is for you, by the way). The last one did almost nothing with his triangle attempts other than limit the striking capability of his opponent... far more was done without it. But, again, not anything but a challenge match.

What facts?

That learning to fight from the ground position is beneficial for self defense.
That many fights end up in the clinch, and go to the ground, or with someone falling to the ground.
That the potential for damage or injury occurs when you're on the ground.
That the quickest way to end a confrontation outside of getting a lucky knockout punch (or kick), is to choke them unconscious.

Given some of the examples I've seen personally or heard of on this forum, I still believe that Bjj is the best way for someone to learn that method of fighting.

[/QUOTE]

Learning to fight from the ground can be beneficial, it's not definitively true though. Learning to get up from the ground is far more beneficial.
"Many fights" don't end up on the ground, and even those that do don't really feature ground fighting in that format.
There is potential for damage on the ground... sure. Only there? Nope. Is that where there is the most potential? Nope. High school Judo focuses on ground over throwing (stand up) because, well, it's safer. Sorry.
No, that's not the quickest way, especially when it takes you 30 seconds to get into position.

I agree that BJJ is one of the best approaches to learn ground fighting. But ground fighting isn't everything, or indeed, even the most important outside of it's context.

I never said it was the be all end all. I simply said that its a great choke to use when you're in the position to use it. Considering that said position is common, the opportunity to use it shouldn't be rare. Case in point would be that military officer stopping that armed rapist.

"Common"? Really? Any backup to that statement? And no, it's not a great choke to use... it's far too dependant on situational circumstances and not the easiest to pull off.

Where did I say that someone should only be using Triangle Chokes to stop a rape? I simply said that the Triangle Choke is a great technique to use in a SD situation. I even used an example of said SD situation where a triangle was used to stop an attack.

Only? Nope. But you have suggested that it's a good go-to... in fact, you're suggesting it here again. Oh, and for the record, the reports are a little unclear about exactly what was used (the description given is pretty much always "choked with her thighs", not precisely the way I'd describe a triangle). Mind you, the reports aren't really that clear on a few things, personally, I'm taking it with a number of grains of salt... for a few reasons.

The reasoning behind that style of randori is pretty irrelevant. What is relevant is that you never see that type of randori being put to use outside of a heavily controlled setting like a demo, a dojo, etc. I've never seen anyone perform an Aikido throw after someone punches them. Never. I've seen Judokas do it. I've seen wrestlers do it. Never seen an Aikidoka perform it against someone looking to smash their face in. I'm simply asking why that is? I think that's a fair question to ask, don't you?

Er... what? The reasoning behind that style of randori is completely relevant if you claim to understand what's going on there. If you had the first clue about it, for example, you wouldn't be asking why it's only seen in Aikido dojo... As far as your "fair question", no, I don't really think so. For one thing, you're looking only at technique, not approach. Next, how many Aikidoka do you follow around waiting for fights to break out?

Yet it is the sport-based systems that appear most adept at being able to perform their art in a non-compliant situation (like a street fight). Again, why is that?

Really, I'd call that a false connection, personally.

If you're training to break someone's arm, and you break someone's arm while they're fully resisting you, I would say your training is effective.

Right... nope. I wouldn't say that means anything, really... unless you can cite the exact methods used, and describe why. "An armbar that I learnt in class" doesn't cut it.

So where does the testing of the techniques come into play?

You're not going to understand this, but in kata.

They would certainly be less fantastical if we saw them being utilized outside the confines of a demonstration or a dojo.

Learn what the context is, first. Then you can begin to have an informed opinion.

Sounds very practical.

And, the point is missed again... entirely. You wanted to know what happened, so I told you what it was. Expecting everything to fit the one, single context or shape is to completely miss what's actually right in front of you.

I'm interested to hear why you believe that sparring would be impractical in a fighting system. Especially when sparring has proven to be an effective means of practice for centuries, even within classical styles.

It's unrealistic, teaches false realities, promotes unrealistic responses in order to fit a false construct, relies on personal interpretation/implementation rather than a deliberate instilling of skills/methods, is far too random in attaining specific results rather than generic ones, and so on. I'll deal with the second half in a bit.

Last I checked, the Navy is considered military.

Yeah... and last I checked, a merchant ship wasn't part of the Navy... but that's all by the by.

So all of the Aikido throws shown here;

Aren't actually in Aikido?

Terminology is a tricky thing...

Well, where are the Aikidoka competing in the UFC or MMA competitons? Where are all the videos of someone using Aikido to defend themselves in a street fight?

So, Aikido, an overtly non-competitive art, not being part of a competition is a stroke against them? I mean, why don't we see BJJ practitioners involved in Kendo tournaments? And seriously, videos requested again? You know, there aren't any videos of me in a fight... but hey, I've been in them. Now, how could that be?

Never, because my training partners are smart enough to tap. However, if they didn't tap, I would probably break their arm.

Do you actually think so? I've had students and training partners not tap... of course, I retained enough control to not actual damage them... but to let them know that there are better plans they could have.

So someone rushing towards you with their arm extended and hand open is viewed as a "realistic attack"?

Do you really think it is viewed that way? Here's a hint... it's not. This is why you actually understanding what the randori methods are is completely relevant. At the moment, you're asking why a tennis player doesn't bounce a ball off a wall during a game to out play his opponent, because all you've ever played is squash.

Boxers also spar against other boxers who have the same goal in mind: Knock the other guy out.

So when a trained boxer ends up in a fight with a non-boxer:

Its brutally effective, and looks similar to what they do when they practice.

Where are the similar Aikido clips?

See, that's the issue... having the same goal in mind is one of the big thing that differentiates reality from sports. As far as boxings effectiveness, no-one's disputed that. Nor, for that matter, has anyone disputed BJJ's. The difference is that boxing is closer to being applicable.

Pankration for starters;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration

Its about 2500 years old give or take a century.

There's even a cool image of a trainer overlooking two fighters sparring each other.

Pankration? Really? How much do you know about it, beyond Wiki's description?

I'm merely pointing out that we've seen competitive styles like Boxing, Wrestling, TKD, Bjj, MT, etc. being used effectively outside the confines of the training hall. I'm curious as to why the same hasn't occurred with the non competitive styles.

And, of course, we're curious as to why you believe non competitive systems haven't done the same thing.

These guys must have controlled the dump;

The same clips again? Your argument doesn't get any better with repetition.

And, to your comment there... no. Doesn't particularly look that way.

The point of that story was a woman defending herself from a rapist using the Triangle Choke. Her occupation is pretty irrelevant.

That was your point, sure. The point of showing that the story wasn't entirely what you were claiming was to show that perhaps you weren't reading that closely. Other points that have been made is that a single instance does not a pattern or reliable construct make.

Who to believe; K-man or Aikido? I think I'll go with Aikido knowing what its techniques are, and what they're called.

Er... you do realize that K-man is an Aikido practitioner, right? I mean, he is training Aikido, so he's probably going to have some idea of the terminology, and how it's applied within the art... just sayin'....

If you're targeting the wrist. In Bjj I'm targeting the elbows.

If it's me, I'm targeting the wrists, or the elbows, or the shoulders, or the fingers, or the neck, or the ankle, or the knees.... and, in all cases, when I aim for joint locks with full force, it's for destruction. Pure and simple. I don't apply things to get a tap-out or submission. I don't apply them to get compliance (well, sometimes I do, but not in the context of full force), I aim for destruction. Hell, look at the names we use... Kote Hishigi (Crushing the Wrist), Oni Kudaki (Destroy the Demon), Ude Ori (Break the Arm), and so on... As I said, terminology is important...

Okay, but we're talking about Aikido, not your hybrid MA style.

Er... not really correct there, mate. K-man teaches Karate, and trains in Aikido... there isn't any "hybrid" style there...

Wrong thread chief. In this thread we're talking about classical MAs that sparred. Since Muay Thai dates back to the 16th century, I'd consider it a classical MA that definitely enjoys sparring.

Yeah... I'm highly doubtful of that history, personally. It just doesn't mesh, really. So I'd disagree, as it's not a classical martial art...

GOD BLESS YOU CHRIS, I KNEW YOU WERE GONNA BE ONE OF THOSE GUYS!!! I SUPPOSE SINCE YOU CAN'T DROP A NUKE ON YOUR OPPONENT IN A STREET FIGHT IT MAKES IT NOT REAL DUE TO "RULES". OH WAIT! NOW YOUR CHANGING YOU STANCE MID SENTENCE AND SAYING THERE WERE ONLY "RESTRICTIONS" IN THE EARLY UFC's! WHICH IS IT BUDDY? I WILL TELL, NO RULES IS WHICH ONE IT WAS.

Ooh, shouting. Fun.

"One of those guys"? A realist? Sure, yeah, I am. My research and study is into actual, real world violence. And, for the record, I hardly changed my stance mid-sentence, as I'd already said it previously (page 60, post 865). And there are always rules, so no, the idea that "THERE WERE NO RULES!!!!" is frankly marketing, and not reality.

SO IF IM IN A BAR AND SOMEONE ASKS ME TO STEP OUTSIDE, THAT ISN'T A SELF DEFENSE SITUATION BECAUSE WEMBOTH AGREED TO GO TO GO OUT THERE AND FIGHT?

That's right, it's not a self defence situation, it's a challenge match. It's a step up from what's referred to as the Monkey Dance, and is a form of social violence as opposed to asocial violence (familiar with those terms? If not, you might be a little out of luck in this conversation...). It's not self defence. It's just poor decision making if you actually go out to meet the guy.

CHRIS, YOU'RE HONESTLY GOING TO SIT HERE AND SAY THE "LACK OF RULES" HELPED THE GRAPPLERS!!! LIKE, THE STRIKERS NEEDED RULES TO HELP EVEN THE PLAYING FIELD!?!?!

I agree that it sounds bizarre, but, well, yeah.

WELL I GOTTA DISAGREE, ROYCE WAS THE ONE THAT WAS BIT AND STILL WON HIS FIGHT, AND I HAVE USED A LEGIT FISHHOOK TWICE IN STREET FIGHTS AND BITH TIMES IT WAS STANDING.

Er... you did note where I said it wouldn't "immediately defeat a grappler", yeah? And your use of a fishhook doesn't really come into it... as you could only have used it in a grappling situation (close, clinch work).

THIS IS A GOOD POINT!

Ah, you recognized one. Good start.

ACTUALLY THIS STATEMENT JUST SHOWS YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ON THE SUBJECT. THE CAGE ACTUALLY HELPS THE STRIKER. GIVES THEM SOMETHING TO KEAN AGAINST AS SOMEONE IS TRYING TO TAKE THEM DOWN, CAN AND IS STILL USED TO HOLD ONTO TO STOP SOMEONE FROM TAKING THEM DOWN AND IS OFTEN USED TO "WALL WALK" THERE WAYNBACK TO THERE FEET ONCE ON THE GROUND.

You really should remember that I was talking about the initial set-up, yeah? It was an alien aspect of the environment, so such things simply weren't done, but it was used by the grappling/groundfighting competitors.

LOL, OH MY!!!!!!! YES, SETTING ROYCE UP FOR A SECOND ROUND MATCHUP VS A 225LB, RIPPED CATCH WRESTLING BOXER AND KING OF PANCRASE NAMED KEN SHAMROCK SURE WAS GIVING HIM THE EASY ROAD. THISE SNEAKY GRACIES!!!!!!

Yep... and what happened? Did you listen to Ken afterwards?

WHICH IS WHY THE GRACIES STOPPED FIGHTING. TO MANY RULES MADE THE UFC UNREALISTIC AS A TRUE SENSE OF COMBAT.

Ha! Really? Nope.

JUST BECAUSE THERE IS STANDUP GRAPPLING DOESNT MEAN THE STUFF ON THE GROUND ISN'T ALSO GRAPPLING.

OH AND HERE IS DEFINITION.
grappling - the act of engaging in close hand-to-hand combat; "they had a fierce wrestle"; "we watched his grappling and wrestling with the bully"
hand-to-hand struggle, wrestle, wrestling, grapple
struggle - strenuous effort; "the struggle to get through the crowd exhausted her"
2. grappling - the sport of hand-to-hand struggle between unarmed contestants who try to throw each other down.

How about you read things a little closer, then? What I said was that grappling does not mean ground fighting, not that ground fighting isn't grappling... subtle, I know... you might also note that your definitions don't state anything about groundwork either.... in fact, they specifically state "struggle between unarmed contestants who try to throw each other down"... which you can't do unless you're standing, of course. Good try, though.

LOOKS LIKE MAYBE YOU ARE WRONG........AGAIN.

Again? You're going to try that without having a prior occasion? Hmm....

I will be back for more, I actually have to go judge some MMA fights.:drinkbeer

Sure.

 

[SENC-33]

If the average ground fighter is going to insist on taking another person to the ground in a self defense situation he/she had better be prepared for more things going wrong than right. A person in a street fight isn't going to tap or yell uncle so you better be prepared to injure them in some form or fashion (if you can even manage to get them in a proper lock). If they have a weapon such as a pocket knife and they are able to get to it good luck to you and if there are multiple attackers willing to jump in you are likely to get hurt badly.......

Now I know what the response will be....."We train for those situations" and my response is a simple "I doubt it". The majority of BJJ guys have been lured into a false sense of reality because the Gracie's had some success (mostly in a controlled environment)

 

[MJS]

Of course. I have no problem with that, as long as its paired with a form of full contact free sparring.

Not sure if I commented on this, but I will now. Let me ask you...why do you care? I'll say the same thing to you, as I say to others who say what you just did...if you're happy with how you train, if you have no intentions of every leaving your school or training with people who dont train like you, then again, why do you care? In my 20+yrs of training, trust me when I say, I've seen A LOT of things that are pure crap and more than a little suspect, but ya know what....I really don't care. Oh sure, knowing that people are giving their hard earned money to BS teachers, makes me shake my head, and I can offer suggestions, but in the end, I know what I do, I know who I train with, and I know what I can/can't do, so really, anything else really means nothing.

I have my thoughts and methods of how I train things, and many of my training partners share the same views. But, just because *I* think something is the best way to do something or that something should be trained a certain way, doesnt mean that anyone else will agree, and again, thats fine. Chris Parker, who I only know from this forum, and I, have talked about a huge range of things with him, both on the forum and in PM. We agree, we disagree, but in the end, I don't think less of him or hate him because we disagree.

 

[MJS]

And Steve? "Too deadly"? Really? Tell me, how often have you broken someone's arm with an armlock? If you haven't, how do you know if you can pull it off? It's more than just the mechanics, of course...

I see what you're saying Chris. But, if we think about it, this statement really applies to just about anything in the arts, no? I mean, unless we actually poke someone in the eye or kick them in the balls, we're not going to know whether we can pull it off or not, no?

 

[RTKDCMB]

I mean, unless we actually poke someone in the eye or kick them in the balls, we're not going to know whether we can pull it off or not, no?

No matter what training you have there is no way know for sure if anything we learn can be used successfully in a real life self defence situation. We can only think in terms of probabilities. If something does not work us in class then is is highly probable that it will not work outside of it, if something works for us in class then it is often more probable (but not always) that it will work outside as well. During my first 4 or 5 years of training I used the low section block in class to block front kicks, side kicks and training knife stabs and such and it worked quite well quite often. When it actually came time for me to need to use it to stop someone from kicking me in the groin in a real life street fight (well actually car-park), surprise surprise it worked then too (all 3 times in fact) and if that worked then there is a reasonable probability that other things I have used in class will work too, but then nothing is certain.

 

[Hanzou]

Not sure if I commented on this, but I will now. Let me ask you...why do you care? I'll say the same thing to you, as I say to others who say what you just did...if you're happy with how you train, if you have no intentions of every leaving your school or training with people who dont train like you, then again, why do you care? In my 20+yrs of training, trust me when I say, I've seen A LOT of things that are pure crap and more than a little suspect, but ya know what....I really don't care. Oh sure, knowing that people are giving their hard earned money to BS teachers, makes me shake my head, and I can offer suggestions, but in the end, I know what I do, I know who I train with, and I know what I can/can't do, so really, anything else really means nothing.

I have my thoughts and methods of how I train things, and many of my training partners share the same views. But, just because *I* think something is the best way to do something or that something should be trained a certain way, doesnt mean that anyone else will agree, and again, thats fine. Chris Parker, who I only know from this forum, and I, have talked about a huge range of things with him, both on the forum and in PM. We agree, we disagree, but in the end, I don't think less of him or hate him because we disagree.

I don't know where you got the idea that I cared or that I "hated" Chris Parker because we disagree on training methods. My response was my personal opinion. Like I've always said, people are free to train anyway they like.

 

[Hanzou]

If the average ground fighter is going to insist on taking another person to the ground in a self defense situation he/she had better be prepared for more things going wrong than right. A person in a street fight isn't going to tap or yell uncle so you better be prepared to injure them in some form or fashion (if you can even manage to get them in a proper lock). If they have a weapon such as a pocket knife and they are able to get to it good luck to you and if there are multiple attackers willing to jump in you are likely to get hurt badly.......

Now I know what the response will be....."We train for those situations" and my response is a simple "I doubt it". The majority of BJJ guys have been lured into a false sense of reality because the Gracie's had some success (mostly in a controlled environment)

I'd just like to point out that its pretty hard to reach for a pocket knife when your arms are controlled. Dominant positioning means exactly that.

If they don't tap or scream mercy they go to sleep or their bone snaps. It's pretty simple.

 

[MJS]

No matter what training you have there is no way know for sure if anything we learn can be used successfully in a real life self defence situation. We can only think in terms of probabilities. If something does not work us in class then is is highly probable that it will not work outside of it, if something works for us in class then it is often more probable (but not always) that it will work outside as well. During my first 4 or 5 years of training I used the low section block in class to block front kicks, side kicks and training knife stabs and such and it worked quite well quite often. When it actually came time for me to need to use it to stop someone from kicking me in the groin in a real life street fight (well actually car-park), surprise surprise it worked then too (all 3 times in fact) and if that worked then there is a reasonable probability that other things I have used in class will work too, but then nothing is certain.

I agree with you. I was simply pointing out that the statement made, covers a wide array of things.

 

[MJS]

I don't know where you got the idea that I cared or that I "hated" Chris Parker because we disagree on training methods. My response was my personal opinion. Like I've always said, people are free to train anyway they like.

I wasn't implying that you did hate him. And if people are free to train anyway they like, why are you making the posts that you are??

 

[frank raud]

I'd just like to point out that its pretty hard to reach for a pocket knife when your arms are controlled. Dominant positioning means exactly that.

If they don't tap or scream mercy they go to sleep or their bone snaps. It's pretty simple.

Once they tap, what happens?

 

[Hanzou]

I wasn't implying that you did hate him. And if people are free to train anyway they like, why are you making the posts that you are??

You need to be a bit more specific. Which posts are you referring to?

Once they tap, what happens?

You transition into a body lock or a pin if you still need to maintain control. If not, you can release, and take a walk.

 

[MJS]

You need to be a bit more specific. Which posts are you referring to?

Hmm..oh, lets see:

"Of course. I have no problem with that, as long as its paired with a form of full contact free sparring."

Like I asked...why do you care whether or not people do/don't do this??

 

[frank raud]

"I don't know where you got the idea that I cared or that I "hated" Chris Parker because we disagree on training methods."
"I was talking about Bjj, not Aikido"
"Where did I say that someone should only be using Triangle Chokes to stop a rape?"
"You misread my quote"
"That was a quote taken out of the context"
"Spinedoc, you've greatly misunderstood my posts if you believe that I want everyone to train in Bjj."
"You missed my point"
"I didn't say that Bjj is more traditional because its more progressive"
"My point, (the one you seem to be missing)"
"I would love to see posts from this thread where I stated or implied any such thing. "
"Please post the quote where I stated or implied that other MAs ain't "_____". "
"Where did I say that the founder of Goju Ryu never studied Judo?"
"You seem to be, since you keep attributing things to me that I never said"
"I never said any of that"


Reading comprehension, people . Please work on it.
​

 

[frank raud]

You need to be a bit more specific. Which posts are you referring to?



You transition into a body lock or a pin if you still need to maintain control. If not, you can release, and take a walk.

If you take a walk, does the weapon disappear? As the common statement on street defense is the other guy has friends, how long do you want to be tied up with one guy? In the words of Rorion Gracie "More than one, get a gun."

 

[SENC-33]

I'd just like to point out that its pretty hard to reach for a pocket knife when your arms are controlled. Dominant positioning means exactly that.

If they don't tap or scream mercy they go to sleep or their bone snaps. It's pretty simple.

Let me guess you have a youtube video? That's about the extent of your experience in my opinion

 

[Hanzou]

If you take a walk, does the weapon disappear? As the common statement on street defense is the other guy has friends, how long do you want to be tied up with one guy? In the words of Rorion Gracie "More than one, get a gun."

Considering that I was answering a question about what to do if someone has submitted to you, I would assume in that scenario that the weapon and the friends have already been accounted for.

Because people in the non-competitive styles do not go out looking to challenge everyone and get it on camera.

So you think sport-based MA stylists walk around looking for fights? Maybe we just have more active social lives?

As for TKD, I've seen instances where people get knocked out with a well placed kick to the face. I have yet to see someone get tossed through the air via an Aikido throw.

 

[Hanzou]

Hmm..oh, lets see:

"Of course. I have no problem with that, as long as its paired with a form of full contact free sparring."

Like I asked...why do you care whether or not people do/don't do this??

I was under the impression that we were having a discussion about martial arts. Its not about whether I care what people are doing or not doing.

 

[TFP]

First - WHY ARE WE YELLING?


just easier hitting bold than doing these colors.
No it is not, if someone asks you to step out side you can say no. If he waits for you to go outside to go somewhere else and then attacks you, that is a self defence situation.

ok, what if you walk outside and someone is waiting for you and says he is going to beat you up?


You were lucky you didn't lose a finger or two, sticking your finger in someones mouth is good way to get your fingers bitten off.

yeah, or maybe I just know what I'm doing.......


Yes and matching up Royce Gracie with a boxer silly enough to have one boxing glove and no grappling experience whatsoever, who tapped at the first sign of trouble, whilst matching up Gerrad Gordeu (a striker who almost won the whole event) with 400lb man mountain in the first UFC, that wasn't giving him the easy road at all was it?


lol, nice try but your sounding very desperate here..... See I'm not the one that made the "easy road claim, you are! You can bring up Gerrards match ups all you want but you will fail miserably in your attempt. Teli had little to no actual combat experience and did not go onto become one of the best early UFC fighters of all time, get into the UFC Hall of Fame and is known as a legend of the sport. Sorry bud, no way to compare Teli to Ken Shamrock.

So no, as much as I really, really want it to be true, Royce did not get a favorable road to the finals.

:cofeespit:

 

[TFP]

.

Except forcing someone to submit isn't holding back. If someone surrenders to you, then you've defeated them. Every situation doesn't require you to snap someone's arm in half.



.

There are accounts of GJJ guys not going for joint locks, but instead blood chokes because there attackers/opponents would have to much adrenaline and continue to attempt to fight with the broken arm, There also reports of the Gracies getting tired of there attacker/opponents "surrendering", the Gracies letting go of the hold only to have that opponents continue to want to fight.

The solution? They would blood choke the guy out, then snap his arm while he was asleep.

 

[TFP]

So, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Please clarify something for me. Going on what you just said, am I safe to assume that you feel that stand up arts have their place? You then state that style vs style, BJJ is head and shoulders above the rest. So if that's the case, then why bother with stand up?

Yes standup arts have there place for sure! I love standup arts!!!

Thing is, there is rarely an art-vs-art battle anymore as most arts are cross training. BJJ is head and shoulders above IMO, but it is far from complete. I've stated before my disdain for BJJ's failure to emphasize wrestling type takedowns.

I've also stated way back when in this thread that I think a seasoned, athletic, standup fighter would most likely beat your average sport BJJ Blue Belt.