Sport And TMA....Again

[ballen0351]

Where exactly did it exist prior to 1993? Outside of Bjj ground fighting was largely non-existent in the MA world. Again, judo had all but abandoned newaza because of Olympic rules and Other MAs weren't teaching ground fighting in any form whatsoever. So where's the confusion?

Im not the one thats confused. So all ground fighting just appeared in 1993 by the gracies prior to that there was none huh? So thousands of years for Wrestling didnt exist?,
Where do you think the Gracies learned it from?

I know that your teacher wasn't teaching ground fighting utilizing traditional Okinawan MA.

You KNOW nothing thats the problem

Again, Newaza was rare in Judo prior to the late 90s, and even at that point they really didn't think it was useful for their goals. So you'll forgive me if I don't believe that your Goju instructor was teaching the lost art of Okinawan ground fighting to his students.

Nothing lost about it. Its always been there. Nobody claimed Goju was only ground fighting. But there is ground fighting techniques, in Goju. Not to the lvl of BJJ because its not Goju's focus. In comparison to BJJ its very elementary but its there and has always been there. Its also effective against normal people. Would I try to out ground fight a BJJ guy with what I learn in Goju of course not. Id use other techniques from in close stand up. Which is what Goju is good at.

Here is a photo of ground controlling someone. Its the end of a Bunkai used to defend a single leg takedown

Which is why traditional MA schools across the country are actively including Bjj and grappling into their curriculums?

And? Nobody said BJJ was bad. Its great for what it is. BUT its not the ONLY ground game that ever existed as you seem to think.

 

[Kframe]

Himura Kenshin(awesome anime by the way) IF you want proof, look not to the UFC which is were hanzou I failing his argument. Look to the Hundreds of Gracie challenge matches that took place before the first UFC. They are all on Youtube, every single one of them, plus you can get the DVD. It shows them walking into ANY dojo they can find that would accept the challenge, to a NO RULES fight to see who wins. Many of the schools were top notch schools. Im sure your going to bring up the controversy regaring Judo Gene Lebell and I agree that stank but, doesn't change the outcome of the hundreds of other challenge matches.

Your correct, the UFC was not the best example to use.. The Gracie challenge matches, all of which exist on youtube, hundreds of them, make the point far better then the UFC ever did.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Where exactly did it exist prior to 1993? Outside of Bjj ground fighting was largely non-existent in the MA world. Again, judo had all but abandoned newaza because of Olympic rules and Other MAs weren't teaching ground fighting in any form whatsoever. So where's the confusion?

In your head as usual, many martial arts were teaching ground defence long before 1993, just not the way BJJ was doing it, the object was not to stay on the ground, trying to improve your position and finishing them off it was to stop someone from getting on top of you and get back up and either finish them off or escape.

Which is why traditional MA schools across the country are actively including Bjj and grappling into their curriculums?

Some are, many are not my school is not doing it, the Karate class after us on Mondays and Wednesdays are not doing it, the Hapkido I did briefly was not doing it, none of the TMA schools I have seen personally are doing it.

 

[ballen0351]

Himura Kenshin(awesome anime by the way) IF you want proof, look not to the UFC which is were hanzou I failing his argument. Look to the Hundreds of Gracie challenge matches that took place before the first UFC. They are all on Youtube, every single one of them, plus you can get the DVD. It shows them walking into ANY dojo they can find that would accept the challenge, to a NO RULES fight to see who wins. Many of the schools were top notch schools. Im sure your going to bring up the controversy regaring Judo Gene Lebell and I agree that stank but, doesn't change the outcome of the hundreds of other challenge matches.

Your correct, the UFC was not the best example to use.. The Gracie challenge matches, all of which exist on youtube, hundreds of them, make the point far better then the UFC ever did.

So does that say BJJ is better or the Gracie was just that good. Could an average BJJ guy do the same thing? No Some guys are just that good no matter what. If it was just BJJ was better then everything out there then why bother cross training in anything?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Himura Kenshin(awesome anime by the way) IF you want proof, look not to the UFC which is were hanzou I failing his argument. Look to the Hundreds of Gracie challenge matches that took place before the first UFC. They are all on Youtube, every single one of them, plus you can get the DVD. It shows them walking into ANY dojo they can find that would accept the challenge, to a NO RULES fight to see who wins. Many of the schools were top notch schools. Im sure your going to bring up the controversy regaring Judo Gene Lebell and I agree that stank but, doesn't change the outcome of the hundreds of other challenge matches.

Your correct, the UFC was not the best example to use.. The Gracie challenge matches, all of which exist on youtube, hundreds of them, make the point far better then the UFC ever did.

I remember seeing one on YouTube where a rather hapless Hapkido instructor of probably 10 years or so experience fought against a Gracie who trained all of his life and was a 9th Dan and people wonder why the Hapkido guy lost. that was typical of the challenges I have seen on YouTube, a high level Gracie against a fighter who doesn't know what the hell he's doing, I mean the guy just basically stood there frozen, threw out a half-assed side kick and then got taken down. In any case a challenge match will never be an accurate measure of how well a martial art or martial artist works because there will always be some set conditions that will be met by both sides such as; nobody else get involved, no weapons, we stop when someone gives up etc.

 

[jks9199]

I never said any of that. I said that before the first UFC, none of the traditional styles trained for ground fighting at all. Even Judo, from which Bjj came from had pretty much neglected ground fighting.

Fast forward to today, and almost everyone does ground fighting. Why? Because the Gracies proved that fighting on the ground was viable for fighting and self defense purposes. All of that emerged from a small competition that was held in 1993 that eventually blew up to become a popular global sport. The very fact that no one questions the value of learning groundfighting these days as opposed to 20 years ago when most people didn't even acknowledge it as a viable form of fighting shows how important competition and sport can be in the martial arts.

Do you know anyone who trained in the 50s, 60s or 70s? I know that martial artists in numerous styles most certainly did include ground training as part of their practice. It wasn't BJJ rolling (unless they happened to be wrestlers) -- but they did indeed work on what to do either if they were taken down, or if they had to take someone down. With the rise of the heavily commercialized MAs of the late 70s and 80s, a lot of this got lost from the regular practice... But I can say that I was learning some grappling, both standing and ground, as early/late as 1988.

 

[RTKDCMB]

In my neck of the woods, it is about 6 months of consistent training depending on weather or not they have any wrestling in there background and how much they attend class.

By complete newbe I mean someone with no martial arts background whatsoever, including combat sports or wrestling.

 

[SENC-33]

The biggest problem I have with these ground fighting arguments is the multiple attacker dilemma which is real and prevalent. The BJJ gyms I have been to train to STAY on the ground (sport competition) which is fine for the mat but these guys don't focus on actual self defense like getting up and escaping which is what they would be wise to do.

The mindset of the majority of people who train BJJ or any other ground sport fighting isn't for self defense.

 

[MJS]

I wish you would hijack the other thread. We all agreed on page one that you could use BJJ for SD!

LOL!

Within in martial arts, I believe there are at least two groups. There are those who are young and fit and look at MAs as a means of testing their skills against others or maybe even representing their country. These ideals are more than enough to validate the sporting nature of martial arts. Anyone who has developed their skill to that level, or indeed the level to compete in a local tournament will have developed skills to help them in an altercation with an untrained or street wise attacker. Is the average martial artist going to match it with a highly trained professional MMA fighter? Most likely not.

Agreed. Like I said in that other thread, I really don't have a huge desire to compete. I do feel there are benefits to it, and do plan on doing it next year. As for the last line...that's true. I'm sure the majority of people that we'd have to defend against, will be the untrained thug, but then again, I don't want to assume that they won't be skilled.

Of course we now have the problem we have had in other threads as to the definition of TMA. Can we take it that TMA refers to those arts that have existed for generations, were developed to protect life and property and are not used in competition?

Sure.

So the next group are those who have no interest in completion. They might be older, they might be people with an interest in MA, they might be people looking for the ability to defend themselves or their families if the need were to arise. They do not feel the need to test themselves in competition.

True. For those that don't wish to test in competition, I suggested that they do it on their own, with a training partner.

Now you specifically mentioned Kenpo as your example. You said they train techniques against just about every attack. In some ways I can see the logic but I think that it is only at the basic level that those techniques are applicable. We can train to receive a variety of punches to a variety of targets. By the time you have worked all those out you might have 50 ways of defending. Then you get attacked on the street. Are you going to use any of those things? Highly unlikely. You are going to experience adrenal dump and you will react with flinch response. Most reality based systems are based on flinch response and that is also how I train my students. So as you asked is it fallacy? The answer as always is not clear cut. You learn basic techniques, then you forget them. In a fight you are relying on the principles you have learned to produce the appropriate response and this applies across the board, sport or TMA. In the end you are relying on pure fighting skill. The difference is how you arrive at that point.

Well, with 154 techs plus various extensions on those, IMHO, as a former Kenpoist, I've felt for a long time, that there're way too many, but that's just me. Personally, I'd rather see a list much smaller, more work on the basics, and then, over time, have the students become more spontaneous, so as to form their own tech, situation depending.

The difference to me between sport and TMA is context. Sport is to play and the side benefit is self defence skills. TMA is to protect your life by whatever means necessary.

Yes, I can agree with that.

Much has been said of kata, most not complimentary. My teaching revolves around kata. I use it to teach basics, I use it to teach techniques, I use it to teach applications and I use it to teach combinations. But most importantly, I teach it as RBSD. Most sport oriented MAs do not pay much attention to kata at all. That's why I get so annoyed when people who don't understand kata start bagging it.

So we get to your final question, "Do people in the arts need preset techs. to use as a base, to defned against the things I mentioned above, or is just pure fighting skill?" Basically you train the techniques, then rely on the fighting skill that you have developed.
:asian:

Sounds like we're in agreement.

 

[Hanzou]

Im not the one thats confused. So all ground fighting just appeared in 1993 by the gracies prior to that there was none huh? So thousands of years for Wrestling didnt exist?,
Where do you think the Gracies learned it from?

You seem to be, since you keep attributing things to me that I never said. Again, who was teaching ground fighting prior to 1993? What art was teaching ground fighting equal to, or at the level of the Bjj exponents? That's the ground fighting that's being taught throughout MA today.

Nothing lost about it. Its always been there. Nobody claimed Goju was only ground fighting.

There you go again. Who was claiming the Goju was only ground fighting? I said that I highly doubt your Goju instructor was teaching ground fighting. And even if he was, it's pretty irrelevant since it was the Gracies that brought it to the forefront of MA, not individual instructors who suddenly found its value as a method of self defense.

But there is ground fighting techniques, in Goju. Not to the lvl of BJJ because its not Goju's focus. In comparison to BJJ its very elementary but its there and has always been there. Its also effective against normal people. Would I try to out ground fight a BJJ guy with what I learn in Goju of course not. Id use other techniques from in close stand up. Which is what Goju is good at.
Here is a photo of ground controlling someone. Its the end of a Bunkai used to defend a single leg takedown

Takedown defense isn't ground fighting. That guy in the photo is still on his feet.

And? Nobody said BJJ was bad. Its great for what it is. BUT its not the ONLY ground game that ever existed as you seem to think.

No one is accusing anyone of saying that. Nor is anyone saying that Bjj is the only form of ground fighting that ever existed. What I'm saying is that Bjj revolutionized modern MA, and its vehicle was the first UFC competition.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The biggest problem I have with these ground fighting arguments is the multiple attacker dilemma which is real and prevalent.

The biggest problem I have with these ground fighting arguments is the ability to resist against throw. In the following teacher and student Q&A, We can see the problem.

Teacher: Why didn't you resist when your opponent tried to take you down?
Student: Why should I resist if ground game is my bread and butter?

If you don't train "take down resistance", your ability of "take down resistance" will never be fully developed. Many BJJ guys came to my student's Sanda/Sanshou school to learn their throwing skill. They all had the same attitude as "Why should I resist any take down"?

Here are examples of "take down resistance" training:

http://imageshack.us/a/img4/9863/hookak.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XQrk6BwxDI&feature=youtu.be

Since Sanda/Sahshou is kick + punch + throw, there is no ground game involved, to be able to remain standing when your opponent tries to take you down is important. Also the "take down resistance" can be a valid skill in street self defense environment.

 

[MJS]

I would say the public at large thinks that boxers, wrestlers, and MMA fighters can beat the crap out of someone, and handle themselves well in a self-defense situation. I've heard plenty of folks say that Karate or Kung Fu doesn't work in the street, but I have yet to hear anyone say the same about MMA, boxing, wrestling, etc. So the question then becomes; Who thinks that martial athletes can't defend themselves?

Sports athletes tend to be more fit, have healthier diets, fight more often, and train more often than their non sport counterparts. In any SD situation, those factors are very important.

I'd say a lot of that may have to do with things being viewed as the 'flavor of the week'. Any time something new comes along, people flock to it. As I've said, anything has the potential of working, it's all how its trained. I will agree though, that on face value, folks that compete are in better shape, etc. I'll use myself as an example. I thought I was in good shape when I was training kenpo. Yet when I started Kyokushin, I could barely make it thru the hour long class. I was gassed within 30min. Now, 2yrs later, I'm in much better shape, much better stamina, etc.

 

[ballen0351]

You seem to be, since you keep attributing things to me that I never said. Again, who was teaching ground fighting prior to 1993? What art was teaching ground fighting equal to, or at the level of the Bjj exponents? That's the ground fighting that's being taught throughout MA today.



There you go again. Who was claiming the Goju was only ground fighting? I said that I highly doubt your Goju instructor was teaching ground fighting. And even if he was, it's pretty irrelevant since it was the Gracies that brought it to the forefront of MA, not individual instructors who suddenly found its value as a method of self defense.



Takedown defense isn't ground fighting. That guy in the photo is still on his feet.



No one is accusing anyone of saying that. Nor is anyone saying that Bjj is the only form of ground fighting that ever existed. What I'm saying is that Bjj revolutionized modern MA, and its vehicle was the first UFC competition.

I give up. Your right man. There was nobody touching the ground prior to the 90s. Even when there are people here telling you they trained ground fighting prior to the Gracie's and BJJ you tell them they don't know what they were learning. Even when there is photographic evidence of someone controlling a guy on the ground from 100 years ago that's wrong too. So believe what you will. Your the only one that thinks your right.

 

[K-man]

I never said any of that. I said that before the first UFC, none of the traditional styles trained for ground fighting at all. Even Judo, from which Bjj came from had pretty much neglected ground fighting.

Fast forward to today, and almost everyone does ground fighting. Why? Because the Gracies proved that fighting on the ground was viable for fighting and self defense purposes. All of that emerged from a small competition that was held in 1993 that eventually blew up to become a popular global sport. The very fact that no one questions the value of learning groundfighting these days as opposed to 20 years ago when most people didn't even acknowledge it as a viable form of fighting shows how important competition and sport can be in the martial arts.

:bs:

Mmm! Perhaps history isn't your strong suite or is it selective amnesia?

Chojun Miyagi, the founder of Goju Ryu studied Judo.

In 1910 he was incorporated in the army for two years were he studied judo and Okinawan sumo, different from the Japanese one. His attachment to the medical corps determined somehow his study of the physical aspects

His successor in the Garden dojo Eiichi Myazoto was also a judo man.

Miyazato joined the Ryukyu Police Department on Miyagi's recommendation in 1946. He served as physical education instructor at the police academy, and assisted Miyagi (then an instructor at the academy), teaching karate and judo there. Upon Miyagi's death in 1953, Miyazato inherited his teacher's training equipment, and the family also passed on Miyagi's gi (uniform) and obi (belt) to him. Miyazato took up the position of teaching at the 'Garden dojo,' which had been Miyagi's dojo.
In 1957, Miyazato opened his own dojo, the Jundokan, in Asato, Naha. The building had three levels, with Miyazato's dwelling located on the top level. In 1972, he retired from the police force and devoted the rest of his life to teaching karate. Through the early 1970s, he served as Vice-President of the Okinawan Judo Federation and President of the Okinawa Prefecture Karate-do Federation.

So you are saying that the guys who founded the karate system that I study and practise who were both Judo instructors wouldn't have passed on the finer points of judo to their students. How stupid would that be. The fact that 90% of our training is hands on at grappling distance doesn't reflect that? You are totally ignorant of other styles and systems and constantly present bulls#1t as fact.

 

[Kframe]

So does that say BJJ is better or the Gracie was just that good. Could an average BJJ guy do the same thing? No Some guys are just that good no matter what. If it was just BJJ was better then everything out there then why bother cross training in anything?

That is a fantastic question. Im contemplating focusing a lot more of my time to learning it. I have not made the decision yet.. When it comes to holes, BJJ does not have as many.. Watch some of the Gracie stuff regarding stand up tactics. The Gracies put a lot of emphasis on stand up aspects..

 

[Kframe]

By complete newbe I mean someone with no martial arts background whatsoever, including combat sports or wrestling.

I stand by my quote. About 6 months give or take. The only thing that factors in, is the amount of class's they attend.

 

[K-man]

In modern times, those skills come from Bjj because by 1993, no one had been training in those methods for decades. Not even Judo.

OMG! It just goes on! :bs1:

 

[Hanzou]

I'd say a lot of that may have to do with things being viewed as the 'flavor of the week'. Any time something new comes along, people flock to it. As I've said, anything has the potential of working, it's all how its trained. I will agree though, that on face value, folks that compete are in better shape, etc. I'll use myself as an example. I thought I was in good shape when I was training kenpo. Yet when I started Kyokushin, I could barely make it thru the hour long class. I was gassed within 30min. Now, 2yrs later, I'm in much better shape, much better stamina, etc.

This "flavor of the week" has lasted for over 20 years.

 

[K-man]

Where exactly did it exist prior to 1993? Outside of Bjj ground fighting was largely non-existent in the MA world. Again, judo had all but abandoned newaza because of Olympic rules and Other MAs weren't teaching ground fighting in any form whatsoever. So where's the confusion?

Judo only became an Olympic sport in 1972. (It was a demo sport in Tokyo in 1964) Funny how we were rolling round on the floor with my judo mates in the 60s. Any we were grappling in Goju back in the early 80s when I started.

I know that your teacher wasn't teaching ground fighting utilizing traditional Okinawan MA. If you wish to prove otherwise please do so. Documentation and photographs would be very useful. Some traditional kata where an Okinawan is rolling around on the ground doing leg locks and arm locks would help a lot.

:bs: It was taught in traditional Okinawan karate. There are drawings of ground fighting in the Bubishi.

Again, Newaza was rare in Judo prior to the late 90s, and even at that point they really didn't think it was useful for their goals. So you'll forgive me if I don't believe that your Goju instructor was teaching the lost art of Okinawan ground fighting to his students.

You know nothing about traditional karate and you continually demonstrate your ignorance.

Even if he were, it was the Gracies that pushed ground fighting into the forefront of MA, not TMA instructors finding lost round fighting techniques in their systems. This is why people hire Bjj black belts to teach ground fighting instead of digging through ancient texts to find their art's style of ground fighting (it doesn't help that ground fighting simply doesn't exist in many MA styles).

What's the big deal with learning BJJ unless you want to compete in MMA competition? Sure people will cross train.

Which is why traditional MA schools across the country are actively including Bjj and grappling into their curriculums.

And the evidence for that is?

Ignorance is bliss, stupidity is forever!

 

[K-man]

Do the Okinawans even have a native ground submission art?

It is called Tegumi and was a form of Okinawan wrestling. The guys who developed what became karate combined the techniques they learned from the Chinese martial arts with Tegumi. That is why in my dojo we train it every session and it is a grading requirement from yellow belt up.
:asian: