Speed and Power

[MJS]

When you're performing your techniques, do you feel its more important to have speed over power, power over speed, or an equal balance of both? Sometimes you'll see people blast through a move and it makes you wonder...was there any power behind those moves?

Personally, I'd rather see a balance of both speed and power, with perhaps maybe a little more emphasis on the power.

Your thoughts?

 

[kidswarrior]

When you're performing your techniques, do you feel its more important to have speed over power, power over speed, or an equal balance of both? Sometimes you'll see people blast through a move and it makes you wonder...was there any power behind those moves?

Personally, I'd rather see a balance of both speed and power, with perhaps maybe a little more emphasis on the power.

Your thoughts?

Great question. After some thought, guess I frame this a little differently.

I'd rather go slowly with accuracy, intention, posture/balance, and relaxation up until the point of contact (then tightening the muscles to add power and protect ones striking limb). Maybe once in awhile--after many, many repetitions done as above--I may go 'all out' (in the past, for example, this might have been for a test, now mostly) to see how accurate, intentional, aligned/balanced, and relaxed I am when doing it 'for real'.

Then, I take the weak points (oh, yeah, even after all that, will still have weak spots--hopefully they'll be few in number ), and go back to slow and smooth to correct/perfect what needs to be done.

 

[Zoran]

When you're performing your techniques, do you feel its more important to have speed over power, power over speed, or an equal balance of both? Sometimes you'll see people blast through a move and it makes you wonder...was there any power behind those moves?

Personally, I'd rather see a balance of both speed and power, with perhaps maybe a little more emphasis on the power.

Your thoughts?

From a self defense perspective, power trumps speed in most cases. Each strike should cause damage, not annoy someone. If analogies are peoples thing, which would you rather not be hit with. A 100 mph marshmallow or a 50 mph truck?

From the perspective of a teacher, I would like my students to learn how to generate power first. If one follows the various principles that most kenpo systems teach, speed will come in time anyways.

 

[BallistikMike]

To really shake things up ... speed is power.

Power is also relative to the target you are hitting accurately.

Its gotta be common knowledge to most of us here a straight punch to the nose is not the same as to the chin is not the same as to the sternum is not the same as to pectorals. Yet it is exactly the same.

The speed at which it arrives and the penetration it achieves is only as good as the target that is being struck. It is why some "hitters" sink shots and seem to have heavy hands and others slap shots and you get that sting and awesome looking speed.

Its an amazing thing to feel the difference of "hitters" and "slappers" and they both do what works for them.

Couldnt power be defined as speed x mass upon impact + depth of penetration ? But wouldnt you have to take into consideration the aspect of a fight. The changing dynamics. The reality of what is actually happening not the theory of it? The target being struck? The accuracy of the shot?

Speed has a direct effect on power

Accuracy has a direct effect on power

Penetration has a direct effect on power

Target selection has a direct effect on power

Check this out you bring huge speed and huge penetration you dont need to be so accurate in your target selection. You have huge speed and great accuracy you dont need to have so much penetration if you select the right targets (eyes, testicles, throat).

I say all of them have great power

Chose your art and train it to work for you. Maybe you become a master after decades of work and you become great at all four to achieve incredible power (speed, penetration, accuracy and target selection).

 

[marlon]

the more relaxed you are the more speed you will have. power depends on structural integrity, body mechanics and timing. therefore the slow practice that promotes relaxation and proper body mechanics will train spped and power. As for tensing at the end of a movement it disrupts speed because it disrupts relaxed movement causing on to use muscles to start and stop. In terms of power, the filipino stick arts move with tremendous speed and multiple strikes ands each srtike may not have the "power" of a truck moving at 100 mph but the collective motion does damage. To be sure just tapping someone is only an annoyance but there is a lot of ground in between tapping and hitting with hard maximal power. Kempo is designed for multiple strikes and each strike need to have an effect and this is not the same as damage, unlkes we are speaking of the overal structural intergity of the attacker. The end result is another issue.
Ed Parker jr. said, if you cannot do it slow then you cannot do it at all. i agree and add that if you train it slow you train to a higher level of skill, that encompasses speed and power...but it is still fun to go all out every once in a while but that is work out and not training...just my opinion

marlon

 

[kidswarrior]

the more relaxed you are the more speed you will have. power depends on structural integrity, body mechanics and timing. therefore the slow practice that promotes relaxation and proper body mechanics will train spped and power. As for tensing at the end of a movement it disrupts speed because it disrupts relaxed movement causing on to use muscles to start and stop. In terms of power, the filipino stick arts move with tremendous speed and multiple strikes ands each srtike may not have the "power" of a truck moving at 100 mph but the collective motion does damage. To be sure just tapping someone is only an annoyance but there is a lot of ground in between tapping and hitting with hard maximal power. Kempo is designed for multiple strikes and each strike need to have an effect and this is not the same as damage, unlkes we are speaking of the overal structural intergity of the attacker. The end result is another issue.
Ed Parker jr. said, if you cannot do it slow then you cannot do it at all. i agree and add that if you train it slow you train to a higher level of skill, that encompasses speed and power...but it is still fun to go all out every once in a while but that is work out and not training...just my opinion

marlon

Here's how I've come to believe tensing at the end of the strike is best for me and my students:

My Kempo instructors have never mentioned tensing at all, leading to the default position of using tensed muscles throughout the technique. Very inefficient imho--slows the tech, tires the muscles.

My Kung Fu San Soo instructor teaches slow, relaxed practice, but models tensing somewhere close to the target, so that you're striking with a tensed weapon. Very powerful. (In this, he follows some of the old style CMA teachers I've heard so much about, who let the student figure out 'why' on their own, if they stick with it long enough)

Iain Abernethy (Karate, with specialization as bunkai revivalist) teaches to tense at point of impact to protect joints of striking limb, and to strike with a hard weapon.

Philip Starr (Internal CMA, author of recent Martial Mechanics and a member here), comes closest to agreeing with you, Marlon, in that he says to stay relaxed through the target, then tense/slow the strike after striking through (his metaphor: don't apply the brakes until you've exploded through the target).

Starr and Abernethy seem to contradict each other to me, and my KFSS training seems to comes down on the side of IA. So, guess that's why I use that route. I can see value in both views, however.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Early in training accuracy and correct form are most important to developed speed and power, and of course repetition is equally as important

But speed with out power is like hitting someone with a small pillow and power with out speed is like a train on the tracks coming at you, IF it hits you it WILL hurt. But if you want to stand there long enough for it to hit you that’s your problem.

But, IMO, you need speed and power to be effective

 

[Rizuko Kokashi]

There is a difference in speed and power so it depends on how it use and how can you use that speed and power. I prefer to have more of speed than power. Speed you can finish a person off quickly with a lil of power. You can pick aways at your opponent even with a lil of power can finish your opponent. But with brute strenght without anything speed is nothing speed alone can out do power. You need to be balance but if you have speed and no power than there isn't a much way to perform fully like doing grading and you need to technique you aleast need power , speed but also mind power.

 

[DavidCC]

To really shake things up ... speed is power.

Power is also relative to the target you are hitting accurately.

Its gotta be common knowledge to most of us here a straight punch to the nose is not the same as to the chin is not the same as to the sternum is not the same as to pectorals. Yet it is exactly the same.

The speed at which it arrives and the penetration it achieves is only as good as the target that is being struck. It is why some "hitters" sink shots and seem to have heavy hands and others slap shots and you get that sting and awesome looking speed.

Its an amazing thing to feel the difference of "hitters" and "slappers" and they both do what works for them.

Couldnt power be defined as speed x mass upon impact + depth of penetration ? But wouldnt you have to take into consideration the aspect of a fight. The changing dynamics. The reality of what is actually happening not the theory of it? The target being struck? The accuracy of the shot?

Speed has a direct effect on power

Accuracy has a direct effect on power

Penetration has a direct effect on power

Target selection has a direct effect on power

Check this out you bring huge speed and huge penetration you dont need to be so accurate in your target selection. You have huge speed and great accuracy you dont need to have so much penetration if you select the right targets (eyes, testicles, throat).

I say all of them have great power

Chose your art and train it to work for you. Maybe you become a master after decades of work and you become great at all four to achieve incredible power (speed, penetration, accuracy and target selection).

I think you are confusing power with effectiveness.

 

[DavidCC]

I think "timing" trumps them both.

 

[Mark L]

BallistikMike is correct, speed is power. More precisely stated, increased speed causes increased power. Power is defined, in physics, as energy transfered or work done per unit time. Transfer X joules of energy (via a strike) in 0.5 seconds, then transfer the same energy in 0.1 seconds => power is increased. If you sacrifice energy for speed (hit softer but faster), then its a zero sum game.

 

[stone_dragone]

My small take on it agrees with the slow builds fast train of thought.

If one trains for pinpoint accuracy in alow, balanced and coordinated movement, it will build the neural pathways needed to execute the technique with structural inegrity. It is the structrual integrity that builds the power. Once the pathways are built, natually, the motion will speed up and speed and power will result.

The training for pinpoint accuracy follows the "Aim small, miss small" school of thought. A Moderately strong strike, thrown with precision and great speed (due to the neural superhighways being built) will trump a really strong, inaccurate strike somewhere.

Just my .02

 

[DavidCC]

BallistikMike is correct, speed is power. More precisely stated, increased speed causes increased power. Power is defined, in physics, as energy transfered or work done per unit time. Transfer X joules of energy (via a strike) in 0.5 seconds, then transfer the same energy in 0.1 seconds => power is increased. If you sacrifice energy for speed (hit softer but faster), then its a zero sum game.

You are referring to the length of time the weapon is in contact with the target. That is not the same as 'how fast the weapon gets to the target'.

I think the definition of power you are using, while correct in an engineering/science context, is not the same definition of power that martial artists use. I believe the "power" we are talking about is only a measurement of the amount of kinetic energy transferred. I do think that the information you are sharing is accurate and interesting, but I don't think that this is the "speed" or "power" that are the topic here.

"increased speed causes increased power" I think this is true in an isolated system, where a simple mass is colliding with another mass. But that is far far too simplistic to describe the interaction of two human bodies.




So, why do people feel there is a trade-off between speed and power? IMHO Becasue Ed Parker confused them LOL!! "Point of Origin" and "efficiency of motion" are misunderstood, so you see people making movements that are not capable of effectively using the body's ability to generate kinetic energy. they use these movements because they result in less travel time to the target. But when it gets there, it's got nothing on it.

It's like a pizza delivery guy with a rocket jet pack, he gets here in 1 minute but he forgets to bring your pizza! I prefer the guy who carefully drives to my house and brings extra sauce.

 

[Jdokan]

I think "timing" trumps them both.

Fully agree here!!

With proper timing all else is secondary....important...just secondary...

 

[marlon]

Here's how I've come to believe tensing at the end of the strike is best for me and my students:

My Kempo instructors have never mentioned tensing at all, leading to the default position of using tensed muscles throughout the technique. Very inefficient imho--slows the tech, tires the muscles.

My Kung Fu San Soo instructor teaches slow, relaxed practice, but models tensing somewhere close to the target, so that you're striking with a tensed weapon. Very powerful. (In this, he follows some of the old style CMA teachers I've heard so much about, who let the student figure out 'why' on their own, if they stick with it long enough)

Iain Abernethy (Karate, with specialization as bunkai revivalist) teaches to tense at point of impact to protect joints of striking limb, and to strike with a hard weapon.

Philip Starr (Internal CMA, author of recent Martial Mechanics and a member here), comes closest to agreeing with you, Marlon, in that he says to stay relaxed through the target, then tense/slow the strike after striking through (his metaphor: don't apply the brakes until you've exploded through the target).

Starr and Abernethy seem to contradict each other to me, and my KFSS training seems to comes down on the side of IA. So, guess that's why I use that route. I can see value in both views, however.

do we agree that there are two types of power: penetrating and percussive(sp) they are delivered differently in that one pushes though the target physically and the other strikes thwe surface but the effect reverberates through like striking a drum. Both are power and delivery is different.

marlon

 

[Mark L]

You are referring to the length of time the weapon is in contact with the target. That is not the same as 'how fast the weapon gets to the target'.

I think the definition of power you are using, while correct in an engineering/science context, is not the same definition of power that martial artists use. I believe the "power" we are talking about is only a measurement of the amount of kinetic energy transferred. I do think that the information you are sharing is accurate and interesting, but I don't think that this is the "speed" or "power" that are the topic here.

"increased speed causes increased power" I think this is true in an isolated system, where a simple mass is colliding with another mass. But that is far far too simplistic to describe the interaction of two human bodies.

I disagree. When talking power, it doesn't matter how long it takes the weapon to arrive at the target, since no energy (power) can transfer until it makes contact. The definition of power and the definition of speed are precise, whether we're physicists or martial artists. If the OP meant something different than these very specific terms, he should re-phrase. Physics is physics, it applies to all masses colliding, including human bodies and appendages (though you are correct in that it would be a lot more complicated to describe it mathematically). We can't arbitrarily choose where we'll accept the science and where we won't.

 

[kidswarrior]

do we agree that there are two types of power: penetrating and percussive(sp) they are delivered differently in that one pushes though the target physically and the other strikes thwe surface but the effect reverberates through like striking a drum. Both are power and delivery is different.

marlon

Yeah, I think we can agree on that.

My talk of tensing at impact is for the *percussive* variety. This should (and I'm reminding mostly myself here ) drop the opponent in his tracks.

Pushing power/force can be detected because it drives the opponent back (or around, as in your aikido-influenced version of Combo 10, I think it was?). So yeah, I think you're right that there are strikes (as well as throws) that are more *pushing* through the target.

As for kicks, I use a toe kick (we wear shoes), for example upward to inner thighs, that would fit more your percussive definition, and the standard front ball kick, which often drives the opponent in some direction--more the pushing or driving power.

I know some would add more types of strikes (Starr has four, I think), but your distinction works well for me.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yeah, I think we can agree on that.

My talk of tensing at impact is for the *percussive* variety. This should (and I'm reminding mostly myself here ) drop the opponent in his tracks.

Pushing power/force can be detected because it drives the opponent back (or around, as in your aikido-influenced version of Combo 10, I think it was?). So yeah, I think you're right that there are strikes (as well as throws) that are more *pushing* through the target.

As for kicks, I use a toe kick (we wear shoes), for example upward to inner thighs, that would fit more your percussive definition, and the standard front ball kick, which often drives the opponent in some direction--more the pushing or driving power.

I know some would add more types of strikes (Starr has four, I think), but your distinction works well for me.

There are CMA Sifu’s who would tell you there are 3 types of punches and a push is not one of them. A push is a push and a strike is a strike

Also the way Philip Starr describes a punch is one of the CMA punches and it does not surprise me that he would describe a punch in that manor, he has a rather impressive Xingyiquan background and that is the Xingyiquan way of striking.

The difference as it was described to me is in area and depth affected.

External (hard - Sanshou) bunch affects a large surface area but does not have as much depth (Sledge hammer). An internal/external (hard/soft - Xingyiquan) punch, as described by Mr. Starr is relaxed until it hits the target then tenses (explodes) and relaxes again this tends to affect a smaller surface area but penetrates further (Sledge hammer for splitting rocks). An internal strike (soft - Taijiquan) stays relaxed for the entire movement and through the strike. This tends to affect very little surface area but goes very deep (arrow).

 

[Mark L]

Maybe we could consider accepting a reduction in the power of a single blow if it allows us to strike multiple times in a shorter time. Three stiff jabs vs. haymaker? I don't know if this is what the OP was after, but it seems a viable option, especially against a skilled opponent.

 

[DavidCC]

I disagree. When talking power, it doesn't matter how long it takes the weapon to arrive at the target, since no energy (power) can transfer until it makes contact. The definition of power and the definition of speed are precise, whether we're physicists or martial artists. If the OP meant something different than these very specific terms, he should re-phrase. Physics is physics, it applies to all masses colliding, including human bodies and appendages (though you are correct in that it would be a lot more complicated to describe it mathematically). We can't arbitrarily choose where we'll accept the science and where we won't.

I wasn't disagreeing wth physics LOL Just pointing out that sometimes differnet disciplines use the same word in different ways.

So when a kenpo guy talks aoubt "speed" he is talking about how quickly a technique is completed "Sometimes you'll see people blast through a move" , or how long a weapon takes to get to the target.

You were clearly using the length of time the weapon is in contact with the target "Transfer X joules of energy ... in 0.5 seconds, then transfer the same energy in 0.1 seconds" which is why I wrote what I wrote. Your points are valid but they are not relevant to the question.


"When talking power, it doesn't matter how long it takes the weapon to arrive at the target, since no energy (power) can transfer until it makes contact."

If we are talking about the science of Physics, I agree; but when talking speed in martial arts, that is in fact the specific definition (of one type of speed).

dictionary.com lists 22 defintions for "speed" LOL