Proper Kicking

[MJS]

There was a question asked recently by a member about his kicks, specifically the roundhouse kick. On KT, a member posted a picture of the kick being performed in 5 different steps. For reference, here is the pic. Doc commented that the method shown was anatomically incorrect and over time, would cause injury.

My question is...how do each of you kick and what methods do you use to prevent injury?

This question is not directed to Doc specifically, although I do look forward to his thoughts.

Mike

 

[kenpofighter]

Personally I lift my knee up and straight facing twelve o'clock and not as high. Then rotate my hips to get the torque. (on the round kick) I don't lift my knee as high because I don't normally kick that high.

 

[John Bishop]

Personally I lift my knee up and straight facing twelve o'clock and not as high. Then rotate my hips to get the torque. (on the round kick) I don't lift my knee as high because I don't normally kick that high.

That's the way we do a roundhouse or wheel kick in Kajukenbo. The knee comes up like the start of a front kick. Then the hips rotate.

 

[Joe917]

This is pretty much how I kick.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4281730076085458720&q=roundhouse+kick&ei=BeNDSKbLKqW-qQKB8IygCQ&hl=en

 

[LawDog]

In our version of Kenpo when the knee rises up first then you rotate the hip it is called a "snap" roundhouse kick. This is called a "snap" because usually only the quads are used for impacting and the flexors and hip are used for alignment.
With our "power" round house we chamber the ab's first, they pull the hip through, along with the hip flexors. The ab's are released first pulling the hip towards the point of impact and at the same time the quad's are chambered. Just prior to impact the flexors and quads are release. All three groups are used for impacting.
There is the half hip and full hip rotation version. The range application will determine which one will be used.
:mst:

 

[MJS]

Personally I lift my knee up and straight facing twelve o'clock and not as high. Then rotate my hips to get the torque. (on the round kick) I don't lift my knee as high because I don't normally kick that high.

That's the way we do a roundhouse or wheel kick in Kajukenbo. The knee comes up like the start of a front kick. Then the hips rotate.

Well, thats makes 3 of us then, because thats what I do as well. In the beginning, I try to teach kicks in parts. In other words...1 would be the initial chamber or raising of the leg, 2 is the execution of the kick, 3 is the return to chamber, and 4 is the setting down of the foot. Of course once this is understood, things are done quicker.

Mike

 

[MJS]

So, now that we understand how we're all kicking, in your opinions, do you feel that your method is going to cause any long term side effects?

Mike

 

[bujuts]

What I'd posted on KT:

For my part, I treat it as an exaggerated step, much like I do with a front kick. What determines a front kick or roundhouse depends on the time I launch it in the rotational process. To exemplify the notion of "a kick is an exaggerated step", just throw an occasional front kick while walking normally, not allowing the kick to disrupt your pace one iota. For a round house, change course to a 45 and launch the kick to 12:00, once again not disrupting your pace.

Transferring this to the process of rotating (specifically, the NB - Twist - NB sequence), my front kick launches when my hips are parallel, my round house launches when the rear hip reaches the forward 45 degree angle. Both are still just extensions of the step, so the acceleration of the mass through the stance transition is what's really doing the hitting. Like a punch, the leg launches an aligned weapon off of an already accelerating body.

(KenpoTalk post)

As an addendum, my front kick launches when my hips are on the 9:00 / 3:00 line and make contact when they reach the 7:30 / 1:30 line. The round house launches hair later, when the hips reach the 7:30 / 1:30 line. I'm chewing on Doc's advice about the rolling of the pelvic girdle.

When I teach kicking to beginning students, they first learn a front kick from a square horse just to understand weapon formation, leg alignment, and timing. I then have them simply walk (slowly, at first) and pay attention to the rhythm of the feet - thump..thump...thump...thump. These form quarter notes, and the kick must be inserted in full between two beats as an eigth note, without disrupting the rhythm. Later, we apply this lesson to the stance transitions, again requiring the kick to be inserted between discrete actions within the stance transition. Only when there is no disruption in their stance transition do I know their kick is truly an exaggeration of a step. (and, being a closet musician, I pay close attention to the rhythm )

This type of kicking isn't pretty, but it is hella effective. I recall my teacher explaining Ed Parker once demonstrating kicking behind a half-wall of some sort that was in his school. You could only see his upper body behind the wall. You couldn't tell if he was kicking or not, he just moved along smoothly as if walking. The most significant aspect of this method of kicking, I believe, is that it doesn't create a hiccup in the forward acceleration of the body, you literally walk (or run) through the guy with your stance work, the kick being an exaggeration of the step.

As with anything, the power and effectivness is platformed on stance transitions and the mechanical structure to support the strike during those transitions.

Cheers

Steven Brown

 

[championmarius]

I use a whiplike wave motion with the roundhouse, and a very exaggerated step with the front and front push kicks.

My roundhouse is a trailing leg kick, I roll the hips and let the torque/counter-torque of the torso and hips drag the leg out and around. The muscles are kept only tense enough to aim the weapon, about as tense as when walking. The kick either penetrates into a forward step, or recoils to return to its original position.

I will admit, I do not kick above the thigh with the roundhouse, and the front push only goes high enough to hit the abdomen. I am not a big fan of disrupting my base with higher kicks.

 

[ackks10]

well, mike let me say, that i found that on the web, that was not mine, i just put it up on there, btw why does doc think that it wrong?? anyway it was me:hb:

 

[kenpofighter]

Side effect? Of course there will be side effects! Any snapping (or thrust) kicks especially when not striking a object will wear out your joints. I am sure every serious MA who has practiced for any length of time could tell his story of a joint replacement or at least a very worn out joint(s). But more than that, I don't think there is really any other bad side effects.

 

[MJS]

well, mike let me say, that i found that on the web, that was not mine, i just put it up on there, btw why does doc think that it wrong?? anyway it was me:hb:

Hey George! Yeah, I figured it was something you found. As to why it was thought that it was wrong...no idea. I'm hoping Doc, Dave, Bode chimes in.

I'll give you a call later on this week.

Mike

 

[DavidCC]

Side effect? Of course there will be side effects! Any snapping (or thrust) kicks especially when not striking a object will wear out your joints. I am sure every serious MA who has practiced for any length of time could tell his story of a joint replacement or at least a very worn out joint(s). But more than that, I don't think there is really any other bad side effects.

Will walking wear out your joints?

You are assuming that "every serious MA" does it the same way. Doesn't that seem like a rather broad assumption? While I can't explain the difference, I know there is one.

Bode taught me the roundhouse kick as used in SL-4 Kenpo. There is a specific "index" (you might call it a chamber but I'm sure the SL-4 guys do not) position that is used to kick, and specific details of how to kick, retract etc. It's very detailed instruction on "HOW to kick" (which I learned on another thread not everyone is interested in LOL)

And it was not like that GIF.

 

[MJS]

Will walking wear out your joints?

You are assuming that "every serious MA" does it the same way. Doesn't that seem like a rather broad assumption? While I can't explain the difference, I know there is one.

Bode taught me the roundhouse kick as used in SL-4 Kenpo. There is a specific "index" (you might call it a chamber but I'm sure the SL-4 guys do not) position that is used to kick, and specific details of how to kick, retract etc. It's very detailed instruction on "HOW to kick" (which I learned on another thread not everyone is interested in LOL)

And it was not like that GIF.

Which of course myself and at least one other person said that we were interested but never heard back from you.

So, I'll ask again. Yes, I am interested, so if you're interested in sharing your thoughts on kicking, I'm listening.

Mike

 

[John Bishop]

This is pretty much how I kick.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...undhouse+kick&ei=BeNDSKbLKqW-qQKB8IygCQ&hl=en

Yep, that's the way we do it in Kajukenbo, except a little lower.

 

[Joe917]

Yep, that's the way we do it in Kajukenbo, except a little lower.

Yeah I try to kick lower most of the time but sometimes I will throw in a head shot.

 

[kenpofighter]

Will walking wear out your joints?

You are assuming that "every serious MA" does it the same way. Doesn't that seem like a rather broad assumption? While I can't explain the difference, I know there is one.

I'm not saying that every MA does THIS kick the same way but there are side effects. And any one who does a lot of any type of kick (especially not done on a bag, body, or something solid, making it a snap kick like I said before) can and I believe will (if done enough) were out your joints. I am not trying to get anyone to not practice their kicks in the air, but I myself have had some knee joint problems from doing to many kicks. Oh and I could have got the same problem from to much running, but I chose to do karate instead.

 

[DavidCC]

Which of course myself and at least one other person said that we were interested but never heard back from you.

So, I'll ask again. Yes, I am interested, so if you're interested in sharing your thoughts on kicking, I'm listening.

Mike

That thread went a whole other direction and I felt I had derailed it enough I was thinking not so much in kicking in general but the specific maneuver & kick in #7 - so many variations, some of them seemed odd to me I guess was the point I was trying to skirt around.

We have very little application of the roundhouse kick in our system. We have a couple of techniques where we use a vertical roundhouse, usually to the ribs of a bent-over attacker. But on our version of SKK, we don't have even one tech that uses the RH kick that travels horizontally.

The roundhouse kick I was taught at MSU starts with 2 specific leg index positions in sequence. First is the knee up position many of us know as "the flamingo" (but with a slight difference in foot position) then the right foot is raised to the outside so that the shin is horizontal. Then the kick is executed from there.

Hopefully an MSU student (or teacher) will come along here and correct/expand upon this because I was just a visitor trying to soak up as much as I could in one week!

 

[Logan]

I'm not saying that every MA does THIS kick the same way but there are side effects. And any one who does a lot of any type of kick (especially not done on a bag, body, or something solid, making it a snap kick like I said before) can and I believe will (if done enough) were out your joints. I am not trying to get anyone to not practice their kicks in the air, but I myself have had some knee joint problems from doing to many kicks. Oh and I could have got the same problem from to much running, but I chose to do karate instead.

I'm not saying that I disagree with you but posting unsubstantiated and generalistic points does not really have a positive effect on a debate, in my opinion.

Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris and the like have had hip replacement surgery, likely as a result of wear and tear. It is difficult to pinpoint things to a specific technique (i.e. a particular kick) without being able to cite scientific research (of which there is little) as a backup to what you are saying.

There is a huge variety of factors involved - the person (age,weight, genetics etc), the basic motion of the technique (affected by the person, speed, impact etc), the finer detail of timing in turning hips, flexibility, strength of supporting body parts, if joints/body have been warmed up prior to technique....the list is almost endless.

For me, if I kick and it hurts then I take the simple view that I am doing something wrong. If it hurts the next day, I am doing something wrong or overtraining. If the technique flows smooth with no discernible "wrong" factors and doesn't hurt, then I consider that as "ok".

Above all, listen to your body, constantly evaluate what you are doing as you age, strengthen/condition where necessary and rest. I think that if you train smart, you can avoid surgery

 

[SL4Drew]

Will walking wear out your joints?

Ah, the homespun (and accurate) wisdom is refreshing. Doc does have a tendency to rub off.

Bode taught me the roundhouse kick as used in SL-4 Kenpo. There is a specific "index" (you might call it a chamber but I'm sure the SL-4 guys do not) position that is used to kick, and specific details of how to kick, retract etc. It's very detailed instruction on "HOW to kick" (which I learned on another thread not everyone is interested in LOL)

And it was not like that GIF.

In my opinion, the GIF is really bad. The vid, on the other hand, is better. As would be the case with others also familiar with Ed Parker's Kenpo, I'd begin in a neutral bow not the deeper Japanese-style stance. She more or less roughly approximates the indexes Doc teaches, but they aren't exactly right.

Besides the height of the kick and the unwise use of the in-step, there are two main differences I see with the vid and what goes on in Kicking Set 101 (SL4's Kicking Set 1). First, you generally index the front foot. For those familiar with some CMAs, it is something like a "toe-out" step. Second, because of the differences inherent in the stances, we'd have to square the hips. Here, she is already twisted forward and doesn't need to square them, but from a neutral bow you would.

As a far as the deleterious effects high kicking has on your body, Dr. Dave posted a long post not only explaining why this is so, but he also (I recall) cited to medical texts. If you do a search, I'm sure it can be found.