Speed In Your Techniques

[MJS]

Looking through various threads, I've seen reference to the way some apply their techniques. I see comments talking about how some appear to do their techs. slower, so as to be more precise, while others tend to blaze through the movement.

My question is: Do you feel that by going fast, accuracy and power is going to be lost, or do you feel that you can still be quick, be accurate and have power behind your moves?

IMO, the techs. should always be done slowly at first, pinning down the fine points, etc., and gradually building up your speed. I feel that you can be quick and still not sacrifice anything else.

Thoughts?

Mike

 

[dubljay]

I belive many have said this before: 'Speed kills techniques'


I tend to agree with that. Often times someone tries to blaze though a technique and they ruin the timing of the strikes (5 swords is a very common one for this). Ruin the timing and you ruin the technique. Usually one strike sets up the following shot.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Go slow to go fast. Speed is the curse of Kenpo.

 

[MJS]

Interesting replies.

My next comment is not meant to slam the man, but I'd like to use Larry Tatum as a reference here. The man has some quick hands, as seen on his TOWs that he has on his site. Does anyone feel that he is sacrificing anything when he applies his techniques?

 

[coldweatherkempo]

I feel that real speed, and by that I mean, speed, along with accuracy and form, can only be accomplished by achieving unconcious reaction...and that can only be obtained thru repetition.
I mean, I learned to swerve or break for the little ole lady in the crosswalk, not by practicing it quickly or slowly, but rather allowing it to enter into my subconcious, now, even with little practice, my foot makes the tranferance from gas to brake in a heartbeat.
So, I would say real speed comes from nothing more than training your body, your muscles, your mind...relaxing and not OVERTHINKING the process

 

[whitedragon_48]

Speed is simply a byproduct of fluidity and efficient movement, i.e., economy of motion. I used to "blaze" through techniques until I experimented a bit more closely with the concepts of timing and broken rithm. I say the best way to develope this aside from direct learning (with an instructor) is to just experiment yourself with a partner, get his feedback.

 

[michaeledward]

Interesting replies.

My next comment is not meant to slam the man, but I'd like to use Larry Tatum as a reference here. The man has some quick hands, as seen on his TOWs that he has on his site. Does anyone feel that he is sacrificing anything when he applies his techniques?

Yes.

But, I'm a brown belt ... what the hell do I know.

 

[IWishToLearn]

I don't consider myself fast - I try to do things with very specific intent, and keep the flow going. I've noticed in my students that correct principles and consistant practice with flow in mind leads to efficient use of the body and eventually - greater speed.

 

[exile]

I don't consider myself fast - I try to do things with very specific intent, and keep the flow going. I've noticed in my students that correct principles and consistant practice with flow in mind leads to efficient use of the body and eventually - greater speed.

What Steve and Carlos say here is of great interest to me---they emphasize this idea of flow and fluency, which to me suggests a kind sureness in the movement, of knowing where you were, where you are now and exactly where you're going and how (very similar to calligraphy, one of my other `arts').

The think is, kenpo is widely thought of as emphasizing this approach to movement. I've rarely heard the term `flow' applied to karate or TKD, but it seems to me that those arts too should involve a kind of continuous flow in the uninterrupted shift from strike to grab to lock to strike etc. Is it that the notion of flow, and speed arising from it, is just not part of the `teaching vocabulary' of karate/TKD, or is there something about the way the strikes are administered in the latter arts that makes `flow' less relevant to them...

 

[IWishToLearn]

Prior to finding my Kenpo home - I'd studied Yasashii Do, Dan Zan Ryu, Hakadoru Kenpo, T'ai Chi, and Moo Duk Kwan TKD. The only one that had any flow to it was T'ai Chi. It's not a concept I've found taught many places - they're all based on reactions of your opponent, but I see much more of the 1 hit 1 kill mentality. Hit - if he's down, you're done. If he's not, hit again. Repeat. Jujitsu uses off balancing to allow you to move your opponent around, but that's still hit-good-no-hit again-no-repeat. Kenpo uses specific hits to specific places to set up repeat strikes or grappling, all with the mentality of using A to set up B to set up C, D, Q, 2, etc. We might not need all those strikes, but our methodology allows for redundant backups just in case.

 

[exile]

Prior to finding my Kenpo home - I'd studied Yasashii Do, Dan Zan Ryu, Hakadoru Kenpo, T'ai Chi, and Moo Duk Kwan TKD. The only one that had any flow to it was T'ai Chi. It's not a concept I've found taught many places - they're all based on reactions of your opponent, but I see much more of the 1 hit 1 kill mentality. Hit - if he's down, you're done. If he's not, hit again. Repeat.

Good analysis, Steve---and yes, I have to say that while I don't think 1h/1k is bad as a strategic doctrine, it's clear from the way that the kata are designed that you are often expected to follow up strikes by using muchimi from the striking hand---which becomes a gripping hand or whatever---to enact controlling moves that set up new striking possibilities. So 1h/1k is probably not the way we're really supposed to think of it---maybe something like `quickest route to the kill' is more accurate, because the quickest route might involve a deflection setting up a grip allowing a lock and only then, with the lock forcing a complaint assailant into position, a finishin strike.

Jujitsu uses off balancing to allow you to move your opponent around, but that's still hit-good-no-hit again-no-repeat. Kenpo uses specific hits to specific places to set up repeat strikes or grappling, all with the mentality of using A to set up B to set up C, D, Q, 2, etc. We might not need all those strikes, but our methodology allows for redundant backups just in case.

I kind of think that approach would also serve the karate-rooted arts very well...

 

[IWishToLearn]

Excuse me, I mispoke myself . I should have said it has built in backups instead of it allows for redundant backups.

It might serve the karate-rooted arts very well, but I haven't seen that methodology used in practice in any of the traditional arts I've studied. It's very much been a Set Up This Finishing Strike methodology - but the What Happens if That Misses is covered more as a not-often seen, rather than the more-likely than not approach. There are schools of thought which have the "Assumption of Success" as the defining characteristic - but from my own interpretation with what I've seen from that school - it's STILL not 1H1K, because of the way everything has been set up.

 

[exile]

Excuse me, I mispoke myself . I should have said it has built in backups instead of it allows for redundant backups.

OK, point taken!

the What Happens if That Misses is covered more as a not-often seen, rather than the more-likely than not approach.

I've seen some efforts in this direction---so Abernethy gives some interpretations for certain sequences in certain kata which are of the `here's something that will work if the first app didn't go through', and Stuart Anslow's new book on ITF bunkai has some examples of this for TKD, though it's not 100% clear to me in all cases just what is supposed to happen in the interval between the failed first attempt and the successful second (or nth) attempt. Everyone recognizes that a sequence of techniques might go sideways somewhere along the line, but my impression is, the patterns are not all that full of remedial back-ups to pull off the shelf when that happens...

 

[bdparsons]

Effectiveness in Kenpo is based more on timing than it is on raw speed. If you use Larry Tatum as an example, or even better old clips of Mr. Parker moving, you will see intentional pauses or hesitations. I suppose a summary would be to move fast in Kenpo when you need to (or intend to), but don't move until it's time to move.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[IWishToLearn]

Good points as usual Bill .

"Everyone recognizes that a sequence of techniques might go sideways somewhere along the line, but my impression is, the patterns are not all that full of remedial back-ups to pull off the shelf when that happens..."
Wait'll my back gets good enough for dem vids we workin on . It's the kenpo in me that allowed me to see most of what I now can interpret from traditional forms.

 

[phoenix]

Effectiveness in Kenpo is based more on timing than it is on raw speed. If you use Larry Tatum as an example, or even better old clips of Mr. Parker moving, you will see intentional pauses or hesitations. I suppose a summary would be to move fast in Kenpo when you need to (or intend to), but don't move until it's time to move.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

I very much agree with Bill on this. The formula for power is P=m x A(2) where P=power, m=mass and A=Acceleration. With acceleration, we gain the most power in motion via acceleration. However, when you hit a constant 'blazing speed', your power generation goes flat. When you use broken rhythm/timing, and use the pauses/hesitations that Bill mentions, you gain the opportunity to re-accelerate, thus increasing your power exponentially.

Watch Mr. Parker...As Bill said, there are pauses and broken timings all over the place, but in between, man, he is blazing.

Sean