Sparring

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, but you guys don't believe that there's some secret techniques in those movements that teaches you how to fight. You guys recognize that you're only doing those excercises to develop your core.

I mean Yoga has some pretty weird poses that develop flexibility and stamina, but I would never call Yoga a kata or martial art form.

Isn't core strength and good stance part of the toolbox for winning a fight? If those same exercises were to incorporate punching movements and kicking movements and blocking movements, to add some exercise and help train the muscle memory, those would be forms. Would they lose any functionality? No. Would they gain any? Some, though I don't know how much, since I've never trained heavily in a style that used forms of that type.

The idea of "secret techniques" is, IMO, more marketing than realistic. The times I've had someone explain the secondary level of a kata (I suppose that's the bunkai?), it was just another way to see the movements - another set of responses that used some of the same actions. There was nothing secret, just something they didn't teach to new students, so as not to overwhelm them.

I've actually been working on a set of forms like this for my students, to be able to help them learn new techniques by saying, "Okay, you're going to be using this footwork combination from the first kata." Basically, they should help the less-coordinated and less-experienced students improve their movement on their own. It'd also be a tool for highly motivated students who wish I offered more classes, so they can practice more on their own.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Again, exactly what makes someone more skillful than someone else?

There are a number of factors, including but not limited to: How the artists fits with the art, the quality of the school, time training, attention to detail, experience etc.

We must have been watching a different video. The leg kicks devastated the mobility of the CMA practitioner and forced him to close the distance, where he ate multiple punches.

He did not crumble down in pain after the first few kicks

How exactly would them fighting outside on the concrete change anything?

You said 'any context' not just fighting outside on concrete.

Well I've done a bit more research, and the Bagua guy in that fight video is actually a sifu, and has done the art for over 30 years.

And how much training did the Muay Thai fighter have?

You simply don't see that coming out of TMA. I've often heard of TMA's "superior methods" compared to modern styles.

You clearly have not had exposure to them.

Neither TKD or Bjj are traditional martial arts. Both come from very modern MA styles.

For an art to be traditional the art does not necessarily have to be old, only the traditions it follows have to be.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So how exactly do you define a modern martial art vs a traditional martial art?

Well there goes another 20 pages of posts.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Here's a list;

• Five Pyung Ahn forms are used in traditional taekwondo as relatively simple, introductory forms. These correspond to the five Pinan forms of Shotokan.
• Three Shotokan forms called Naihanchi are used, though sometimes they are called Chul-Gi forms when used in taekwondo.
• Shotokan form Bassai is sometimes called Pal-sek.
• Chintō is used under the name Jin-Do.
• Rōhai is used, sometimes under the name Lohai.
• Kūsankū is used under the name Kong-Sang-Koon.
• Enpi is used under the name Sei-shan.
• Jitte is used under the name Ship-soo.
• Gojūshiho is used under the name Oh-sip-sa-bo.

Hyeong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

None of those are used in my school.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Again, you're confusing drilling techniques with forms/kata.

Drilling forms/kata/hyung is drilling techniques, among other things. Each movement has a technique in it.

Forms/Kata have more in common with dancing than an excercise drill.

And BJJ rolling looks a lot like special hugging, that doesn't mean there the same thing either.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hanzou, it seems to me that you believe forms/kata are intended to be a performance/demonstration aspect of the martial arts. While it is true that it is often used in that manner, it is not the intention or purpose of what forms are. They are simply a way of drilling the methods of the system. It's more formalized than just making up a drill on the spot, but it is essentially the same thing and is for the same purpose.

It's clear you don't like them. I know I've said this in the past, but I'll say it again: so don't do them. Why do you care so much if others do them? What is the crusade all about?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For an art to be traditional the art does not necessarily have to be old, only the traditions it follows have to be.

That's the definition I've always worked from. Essentially, it would differentiate those that still wear gi, bow in the style of the originating country, use terms that go back to the original language of the art (in my case, Japanese), and that sort of thing. I don't think there's a stark line you can draw between traditional and modern; it's more a matter of what they do more of.

Certainly many folks in the ryuha (those older Japanese arts that have a specific history within their art that goes back hundreds of years) would refer to anything created in the last century as "modern" (including NGA), but most folks in the TMA world consider TMA to include those styles/arts that maintain many of the traditions of the older styles (again, including NGA).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And BJJ rolling looks a lot like special hugging, that doesn't mean there the same thing either.

Again, almost had to test my Dell's "spill-resistant" keyboard this morning.
(Remind me not to say this the next time I'm in a Gracie training center!)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well there goes another 20 pages of posts.

We are good at side-tracking around here, aren't we?

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, but you guys don't believe that there's some secret techniques in those movements that teaches you how to fight. You guys recognize that you're only doing those excercises to develop your core.

I mean Yoga has some pretty weird poses that develop flexibility and stamina, but I would never call Yoga a kata or martial art form.

I defiantly think people expect too much out of forms. But that is the person.
You could do forms develop your core and become a better fighter.

Or do yoga.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, but you guys don't believe that there's some secret techniques in those movements that teaches you how to fight. You guys recognize that you're only doing those excercises to develop your core.

I mean Yoga has some pretty weird poses that develop flexibility and stamina, but I would never call Yoga a kata or martial art form.

I defiantly think people expect too much out of forms. But that is the person.
You could do forms develop your core and become a better fighter.

Or do yoga.

 

[drop bear]

The difference between say mma drills and some forms is that mma technique comes about as a reflection of fighting. So the drill is supposed to look like what I would do if I was actually trying to apply the technique. Form work can go the other way in that people can try to apply the technique so that it looks like the form.

 

[Flying Crane]

I defiantly think people expect too much out of forms. But that is the person.

This can be true. It depends on the person.

You could do forms develop your core and become a better fighter.

Or do yoga.

I disagree, forms are not a type of yoga. What I get from forms is beneficial to combat, not just an overall fitness benefit.

I'll pose the same question to you: you don't like forms, so don't do them. Nobody says you must. Why do you care so much about what others are doing? What do you hope to accomplish by debating it for pages and pages, over and over?

 

[drop bear]

Again, almost had to test my Dell's "spill-resistant" keyboard this morning.
(Remind me not to say this the next time I'm in a Gracie training center!)

They have heard it before.

 

[Flying Crane]

The difference between say mma drills and some forms is that mma technique comes about as a reflection of fighting. So the drill is supposed to look like what I would do if I was actually trying to apply the technique. Form work can go the other way in that people can try to apply the technique so that it looks like the form.

You also should go back and re-read my earlier post, #395. Fighting definitely does not need to look like the form.

 

[drop bear]

This can be true. It depends on the person.


I disagree, forms are not a type of yoga. What I get from forms is beneficial to combat, not just an overall fitness benefit.

I'll pose the same question to you: you don't like forms, so don't do them. Nobody says you must. Why do you care so much about what others are doing? What do you hope to accomplish by debating it for pages and pages, over and over?

Three posts on it. How many have you done?

 

[drop bear]

You also should go back and re-read my earlier post, #395. Fighting definitely does not need to look like the form.

And

Some

Forms.

It is why I wrote it like that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They have heard it before.

That doesn't mean they'd let me off easy for saying it. They are nice guys, but like to get intense, especially with folks who don't have their ground game.

 

[Flying Crane]

Three posts on it. How many have you done?

I don't know what you are telling me here.

 

[Flying Crane]

And

Some

Forms.

It is why I wrote it like that.

Would you care to elaborate on your message here, a bit?