Gerry Seymour

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I think we're entering a slippery slope when we start claiming that a Bjj guy is doing the equivalent of a Kung Fu form when they're practicing a kimura, or that doing jumping jacks is the equivalent of a Kung fu form or kata.

Katas/Forms are very specific things tied to martial arts. They're so specific that a mental image pops in your head as soon as you mention them.

Actually, what comes into my head is a montage of stuff, including stylized kata, three-step combos, some of the BJJ drills I've done, our Classical Techniques, and even some shadow boxing (which, to me, is either free-form kata, or solo sparring, or both).

Sure, but forms aren't the only way to develop core strength and balance. It can even be argued that they aren't even close to being the best way.
Agreed. I don't think anyone would argue forms are better than calisthenics or some of those BJJ exercises. That's just one side benefit from some forms.

Crap. I hate it when that happens.

I'm of the camp that says that the only thing you should be drilling are the actual techniques. The superfluous stuff is just fluff that dilutes your training time.
And I'm not far from that camp. I think there's high value in some forms, especially for solo practice away from class/gym; however, I think they should be a small portion of training time. To me, they are best used to illustrate principles in a way that can become a common language between instructors - clearly more important in a system (TMA, ryuha, even stuff like Krav) than in a gym where people are learning a mixture of styles. In a system, we want to preserve some commonality because that's what makes it a "system". In the MMA gym, commonality isn't important - there will be some, because what's effective will proliferate, but nobody cares really if fighters from different gyms fight differently.

I don't have a problem with those who train forms more than me. don't have a problem with those who choose not to use forms, either. If their training works for them, that's cool with me. Some on each side will not have the skill I do. Some on each side will have more. What works for them doesn't have to work for me, and vice-versa.
 

Hanzou

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Hanzou, it seems to me that you believe forms/kata are intended to be a performance/demonstration aspect of the martial arts. While it is true that it is often used in that manner, it is not the intention or purpose of what forms are. They are simply a way of drilling the methods of the system. It's more formalized than just making up a drill on the spot, but it is essentially the same thing and is for the same purpose.

It's clear you don't like them. I know I've said this in the past, but I'll say it again: so don't do them. Why do you care so much if others do them? What is the crusade all about?

I don't do them, and I actively avoid arts that practice them.

If people choose to spend their training time doing them, that is their prerogative. However, saying that these movements make you an effective fighter is rather hard to swallow since endless examples have showed solid form and lackluster fighting ability.
 

Flying Crane

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I don't do them, and I actively avoid arts that practice them.

If people choose to spend their training time doing them, that is their prerogative. However, saying that these movements make you an effective fighter is rather hard to swallow since endless examples have showed solid form and lackluster fighting ability.
I understand that this is your opinion. I doubt that is lost on anybody.

Do we still need to bicker about it endlessly, or can we all let it go?
 

Hanzou

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I understand that this is your opinion. I doubt that is lost on anybody.

Do we still need to bicker about it endlessly, or can we all let it go?

Well this thread sort of pertains to all that, so clearly we'd be discussing forms vs sparring.

In any case, I feel that this discussion has run its course. I'll let you guys have the last word.
 

Touch Of Death

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Well this thread sort of pertains to all that, so clearly we'd be discussing forms vs sparring.

In any case, I feel that this discussion has run its course. I'll let you guys have the last word.
No people, no practice, sounds limiting. Life is a form, and you can perform, or just sit by the phone; it is your choice. :)
 

Dirty Dog

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Here's a list;

  • Five Pyung Ahn forms are used in traditional taekwondo as relatively simple, introductory forms. These correspond to the five Pinan forms of Shotokan.
  • Three Shotokan forms called Naihanchi are used, though sometimes they are called Chul-Gi forms when used in taekwondo.
  • Shotokan form Bassai is sometimes called Pal-sek.
  • Chint is used under the name Jin-Do.
  • Rhai is used, sometimes under the name Lohai.
  • K贖sank贖 is used under the name Kong-Sang-Koon.
  • Enpi is used under the name Sei-shan.
  • Jitte is used under the name Ship-soo.
  • Goj贖shiho is used under the name Oh-sip-sa-bo.

Hyeong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course, if you actually read that article, it is clear that what I said is correct. Name one major TKD organization that uses these forms, please.
Their use of the name "taekwondo" in the out of context quote is incorrect. These forms were used when the art was commonly called Tang Soo Do. Before the name taekwondo was even coined. Places that still use them typically (as I said in the first place...) are teaching tang soo do.
 

Hanzou

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Of course, if you actually read that article, it is clear that what I said is correct. Name one major TKD organization that uses these forms, please.
Their use of the name "taekwondo" in the out of context quote is incorrect. These forms were used when the art was commonly called Tang Soo Do. Before the name taekwondo was even coined. Places that still use them typically (as I said in the first place...) are teaching tang soo do.

And I was correct as well; TKD came from Shotokan and (some styles) still have renamed Shotokan kata within them.
 

mograph

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I often find the phrase "necessary, but not sufficient" useful.
 

Buka

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In any case, I feel that this discussion has run its course. I'll let you guys have the last word.

Cool, my brother, last word it is. "Plastics"
 
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