Sparring

[Flying Crane]

Lots of people do forms poorly and for them it is a waste of time.

Others understand how to use forms to train effectively. For them, it is tremendously valuable. Explaining to you in such a way that you can fully grasp it will take more than some YouTube clips and an online forum venue. This is where you step back and say, "ok, that's an aspect of training that I don't understand so I'll simply not pass judgement".

Go ahead, give it a try.

 

[JowGaWolf]

BJJ forms. Forms train correct movement and develops and conditions the body for that movement. The videos below is no different from doing a kung fu form. Forms are done over and over so that the movement becomes natural.

 

[Ironbear24]

Not at all. However, there is a real difference between this;

And this;

Okay, but why do all of that nonsense when you can just do the actual move and drill it with a partner, ramping up the resistance as you go? I have yet to see any evidence that those eccentric movements and "hidden techniques" give you any benefit whatsoever. In fact, I would argue that quite a bit evidence points to all of that form work as being detrimental to your overall fighting ability.

I can't speak for Chinese martial arts. Or any of these long eccentric forms because kenpo simply doesn't have them. We have kata but our katas have a lot of blocking and striking into them.

Regardless of how different it is, you still practice forms albeit with a person, the only difference is you do not have kata. You still go through drills to work on technique which is a purpose of many kata, not all of them but many.

Tae Kwon do came from shotokan karate? If this is factual i didn't know this. Anyway another thing kata is good for is training when you are injured. You can't always train full contact all of the time. What do you consider kenpo karate then? And I'm pretty sure bjj comes from well, Jiu Jiutsu. It is even in the name of it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

MMA technique sparring training with a partner that doesn't resist. The same thing that many MMA fanboys make fun of when TMA's do it. What is it that they say? No one is going to let you just grab them to do this move.

I think munch of the confusion is because of a limited understanding of what sparring is and what form training really is. If you are drilling a fighting motion over and over, you are in fact doing a form. If you drilling that motion with a partner then you are sparring. If you are applying that motion in free sparring, then you are working on "real world" application. Free sparring against other fighting systems will help the practitioner learn what motions to use and when.

Not every technique can be applied in every situation nor should the same technique be applied to every situation. Grappling techniques only work if the practitioner can grab his opponent. If the grappling practitioner cannot grab his opponent then none of his grappling techniques will be useful.

If sparring isn't focused on training technique then technique won't be used when the real fight comes. Which brings back to what I've said plenty of times. Fighting should look that the forms/motions that you train, drill, and spar with.

 

[Ironbear24]

In reality I look at and think much of this is silly, but in a healthy way as we learn from eachother through this type of discussions. I learned a lot about mma, JowGa kung fu and bjj among other arts from this this thread alone.

I feel it is silly because we are all martial artists but for some reason there seems to be a divide, there should be no divide because we are all dumb enough to hit each other in the head over and over again and find it fun. Maybe we have all been hit in the head too many times or something but either way we are all martial artists, we just go about hitting each other differently.

 

[Hanzou]

BJJ forms. Forms train correct movement and develops and conditions the body for that movement. The videos below is no different from doing a kung fu form. Forms are done over and over so that the movement becomes natural.

You're kidding right? Those are exercise drills, and they're almost entirely made up of techniques that we actually use when we fight and grapple. To say that they're no different than doing Kung Fu forms is laughable. There's no "bunkai" to decipher in Bjj drills because it's very apparent what each of those drills are for, and why you're doing them.

I would also disagree that forms train the correct movement, and those movements eventually become "natural". When Kung Fu guys fight, they tend to end up looking like kick boxers, not their forms. If forms taught the correct movement, we'd be seeing CMA practitioners fighting like their forms instead of ending up looking like everyone else.

Anyone fight like this?

Nope.

 

[Hanzou]

Tae Kwon do came from shotokan karate? If this is factual i didn't know this. Anyway another thing kata is good for is training when you are injured. You can't always train full contact all of the time.

Yes. TKD even shares many forms with Shotokan, just modified with Korean names.

What do you consider kenpo karate then? And I'm pretty sure bjj comes from well, Jiu Jiutsu. It is even in the name of it.

Depends on which Kenpo karate you're talking about.

Bjj comes from Judo. The problem is that when the Brazilians picked up Judo it was also called Kano Jiujitsu.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes. TKD even shares many forms with Shotokan, just modified with Korean names.

This isn't really true. While the pinan forms were used by some Tang Soo Do schools, the unification movement that created Tae Kwon Do also replaced those forms with forms (such as the palgwae, taegeuk, chang hon, etc) unique to Tae Kwon Do. There are no major Tae Kwon Do systems using the Shotokan forms. And those few individuals who do (such as the Moo Duk Kwan system taught by Sabumnimrush) are more properly named Tang Soo Do, since that is the curriculum they teach.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[Flying Crane]

I would also disagree that forms train the correct movement, and those movements eventually become "natural". When Kung Fu guys fight, they tend to end up looking like kick boxers, not their forms. If forms taught the correct movement, we'd be seeing CMA practitioners fighting like their forms instead of ending up looking like everyone else.

L

Go back and re-read my earlier post, #395.

 

[Hanzou]

This isn't really true. While the pinan forms were used by some Tang Soo Do schools, the unification movement that created Tae Kwon Do also replaced those forms with forms (such as the palgwae, taegeuk, chang hon, etc) unique to Tae Kwon Do. There are no major Tae Kwon Do systems using the Shotokan forms. And those few individuals who do (such as the Moo Duk Kwan system taught by Sabumnimrush) are more properly named Tang Soo Do, since that is the curriculum they teach.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

Here's a list;

• Five Pyung Ahn forms are used in traditional taekwondo as relatively simple, introductory forms. These correspond to the five Pinan forms of Shotokan.
• Three Shotokan forms called Naihanchi are used, though sometimes they are called Chul-Gi forms when used in taekwondo.
• Shotokan form Bassai is sometimes called Pal-sek.
• Chintō is used under the name Jin-Do.
• Rōhai is used, sometimes under the name Lohai.
• Kūsankū is used under the name Kong-Sang-Koon.
• Enpi is used under the name Sei-shan.
• Jitte is used under the name Ship-soo.
• Gojūshiho is used under the name Oh-sip-sa-bo.

Hyeong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[drop bear]

You're kidding right? Those are exercise drills, and they're almost entirely made up of techniques that we actually use when we fight and grapple. To say that they're no different than doing Kung Fu forms is laughable. There's no "bunkai" to decipher in Bjj drills because it's very apparent what each of those drills are for, and why you're doing them.

I would also disagree that forms train the correct movement, and those movements eventually become "natural". When Kung Fu guys fight, they tend to end up looking like kick boxers, not their forms. If forms taught the correct movement, we'd be seeing CMA practitioners fighting like their forms instead of ending up looking like everyone else.

Anyone fight like this?

Nope.

At the moment we are doing movement drills that could be paralleled with the the concept of forms. In that we move around in these silly stances in an effort to train a whole bunch of core balance and movement. I might have to see if i can find a video.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Forms are exercise drills that teach correct movement, it also strengthens and conditions the muscles that are involved in that movement. BJJ does the same thing.
Forms include punching, blocking, kicking all of which are used in fighting. Punches in a system are performed a certain way. Not all fighting systems punch the same way nor do they generate power the same way.

There is no "Bunkai" in BJJ because BJJ is not Karate, However by defintion: Bunkai "literally meaning "analysis" or "disassembly", is a term used in Japanese martial arts referring to process of analysing kata and extracting fighting techniques from the movements of a "form" (kata)"
There is analysis and disassembly referring to the process of analyzing BJJ form/movement and extracting fighting techniques from the movement of a "form"
You cannot have a well developed fighting system without analysis of form/movement and extracting fighting techniques from the movement.
This is analysis and disassembly of movement. He is literally analyzing form (both movement and position). and extracting the techniques from the movements.

Any fighting system with specific movements that have to be done a certain way, has form. BJJ has movements that must be done a specific way, so those movements are the forms of BJJ. Fighting systems are nothing but a detailed analysis of attack and defend and extracting fighting techniques from the movements of a form.

This guy is running through his forms and the same benefits that kung fu gets by going through forms are the same benefits that he is getting through forms.
The following are his words not mine:
"We do this at the end of training to increase stamina, it's good to loosen the body, ... you can't be tight. So this works the lungs, It also works your mobility and the mind" "so this movement is for you to have power." All the benefits he's listing are the same benefit that people get from doing form in other martial arts, especially kung fu.

The concept of drilling a specific form/movement with analysis and extracting fighting techniques from the movement is the root of a fighting system. The understanding that a specific movement will have a specific result when done correctly (meaning using the correct technique at the correct time) is analysis all day. BJJ wouldn't have existed if Analysis of movement and form never took place.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You're kidding right? Those are exercise drills, and they're almost entirely made up of techniques that we actually use when we fight and grapple. To say that they're no different than doing Kung Fu forms is laughable. There's no "bunkai" to decipher in Bjj drills because it's very apparent what each of those drills are for, and why you're doing them.

I would also disagree that forms train the correct movement, and those movements eventually become "natural". When Kung Fu guys fight, they tend to end up looking like kick boxers, not their forms. If forms taught the correct movement, we'd be seeing CMA practitioners fighting like their forms instead of ending up looking like everyone else.

Anyone fight like this?

Nope.

I fight like that, my sifu fights like that and his sifu fights like that. My first sifu fought like that. I've already showed videos of me using the technique at 0:16, the trap backfist, at 0:18, the uppercut at 0:23, the kneeling punch at 0:30, the big punches at 0:44 -0:47, the block at 0:06.

People who have seen my videos have actually seen me in free sparring using some of these techniques. Some of the same techniques in that form are being used by me here
This technique is the same technique being used at 0:16 in the video that you showed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Training correct movement will make your movement naturally correct
Training incorrect movement will mean that you will naturally do that movement incorrectly. This is the same reason why some people jab with their elbows out. They trained their jab incorrectly so now it's naturally incorrect.

Moving Correctly and Applying Correct Movement in a fight are 2 different things. Moving correctly is done without an opponent. Applying Correct Movement is done against an Opponent.

When Kung Fu guys fight, they tend to end up looking like kick boxers, not their forms.

By the way. I'm a "Kung Fu" guy and nothing in the videos that I showed looks like kick boxing. The reason why is because I spend most of my time focusing on Moving Correctly and Applying Correct Movement in the context of the fighting style or fighting system that my opponent will use against me.

 

[Hanzou]

MMA technique sparring training with a partner that doesn't resist. The same thing that many MMA fanboys make fun of when TMA's do it. What is it that they say? No one is going to let you just grab them to do this move.

Incorrect. They don't make fun of people learning techniques at a slow pace, they make fun when they see techniques that have zero level of effectiveness being passed off as effective techniques.

Wing Chun anti grappling being a great example of that phenomenon.

 

[Hanzou]

At the moment we are doing movement drills that could be paralleled with the the concept of forms. In that we move around in these silly stances in an effort to train a whole bunch of core balance and movement. I might have to see if i can find a video.

Yeah, but you guys don't believe that there's some secret techniques in those movements that teaches you how to fight. You guys recognize that you're only doing those excercises to develop your core.

I mean Yoga has some pretty weird poses that develop flexibility and stamina, but I would never call Yoga a kata or martial art form.

 

[Hanzou]

Forms are exercise drills that teach correct movement, it also strengthens and conditions the muscles that are involved in that movement. BJJ does the same thing.

Again, you're confusing drilling techniques with forms/kata. Forms/Kata have more in common with dancing than an excercise drill.

Again, you're not going to win a form competition doing a Bjj shrimp crawl.

This guy is running through his forms and the same benefits that kung fu gets by going through forms are the same benefits that he is getting through forms.

Simply because he supposedly gets the same benefits does not make the two the same thing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This isn't really true. While the pinan forms were used by some Tang Soo Do schools, the unification movement that created Tae Kwon Do also replaced those forms with forms (such as the palgwae, taegeuk, chang hon, etc) unique to Tae Kwon Do. There are no major Tae Kwon Do systems using the Shotokan forms. And those few individuals who do (such as the Moo Duk Kwan system taught by Sabumnimrush) are more properly named Tang Soo Do, since that is the curriculum they teach.

I'm learning new stuff, here. So, was TKD originally based mostly on Shotokan, and is now diverged by those changes in curriculum? And is all TSD closely related to TKD? Inquiring minds want to know.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.[/QUOTE]

Okay, this one caught me by surprise, and I almost got to test my Dell's "spill-resistant" keyboard.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Again, you're confusing drilling techniques with forms/kata. Forms/Kata have more in common with dancing than an excercise drill.

Again, you're not going to win a form competition doing a Bjj shrimp crawl.



Simply because he supposedly gets the same benefits does not make the two the same thing.

I think it depends how each of you define "form". To me, a form is more like a kata - something you practice to specifications, sometimes without a partner. However, there's a blurry line there, so I can see his point, as well. In our style, the "kata" are called "Classical Techniques" or "Classical Forms". They are a very specific version of the technique, used for teaching specific movements, working with a semi-cooperative partner. These don't look like the kata/forms you'd see in competitions, and some show up in real fighting (self-defense) situations, while others are for teaching specific principles. While those principles would show up in real-world use, the form won't. These Classical Techniques are somewhere between the WC forms in the videos and BJJ's shrimping exercises (which I hate, by the way - good stuff, but I hate doing them).

 

[Flying Crane]

Forms competition is a can of worms all its own. Lord knows Ive done too much of it myself in days past.

Forms were never intended to be performance art. They are simply a training tool, not meant to be put on display for the world to gawk at. Nobody was supposed to even see your forms other than members of your school. Asking to see somebody's form is a bit like asking a carpenter to show you his toolbox. That doesnt have a lot of relevance when you are thinking about buying a house that he just built.

They tend to be a fallback when people want to display their system. It turns it into performance art, in most cases. Forms competition means you are trying to impress a judge who probably has little or no knowledge of your system and your forms. So the theatrics are emphasized and more often than not, the form is done poorly because of it, not done in a way that is an effective training tool. It becomes like a gymnastics floor routine, pure show, little substance.