Sparring

[Flying Crane]

Since that quote wasn't directed towards you, I wouldn't expect you to.



Of course it is.



Of course you do.

So, have you moved out of your mother's basement yet?

 

[Hanzou]

So, have you moved out of your mother's basement yet?

I'd rather talk about how your crane style methodology is better than the methodology coming from MMA.

Are you up to it?

 

[Flying Crane]

I'd rather talk about how your crane style methodology is better than the methodology coming from MMA.

Are you up to it?

I'd like to know if you've moved out of your mothers basement yet. And I'd like to see video on YouTube to prove it, if you claim that you have. After all, if it isn't on YouTube, it didn't happen. We all know that to be a fact.

 

[Hanzou]

I'd like to know if you've moved out of your mothers basement yet. And I'd like to see video on YouTube to prove it, if you claim that you have. After all, if it isn't on YouTube, it didn't happen. We all know that to be a fact.

I take that as a "no" then?

Can't say I'm surprised.

 

[Flying Crane]

I take that as a "no" then?

Can't say I'm surprised.

Let me know when you move out of your mother's basement.

 

[Azulx]

Wasn't that the ending to the Karate Kid?

Lol, it was also the ending of Lyoto Machida vs. Randy Couture.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That video is a prime example of what happens when you don't do full contact sparring.

I've seen folks who didn't do full-contact sparring, and none of them did this kind of lazy stuff.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Uh, how was I proven wrong? I said that the first video showed crappy technique and fantasy, and you show a video of a phoney fighting match showing more crappy, nonsensical technique to "prove me wrong"?

Okay....

Interesting - it looks like a pre-arranged outcome. Some decent hits a few times (unless their acting was better than in WWE), but it certainly looks partly choreographed given the repeated throws. So, can we count heavy-hitting pre-arranged stuff as "sparring"? We haven't really defined what sparring is. If we assume (as appears to be the case) that this was very loosely choreographed (providing some key opening, pre-arranged ending), is the part in between valid sparring at any level? If we accept that it's sparring (and I think we can for this sentence, at least), then we have to accept that sparring doesn't remove the garbage we saw in your original posting - that requires GOOD sparring.

That would be in keeping with what I know of all training: none of it is terribly useful unless it's good. That would hold true for kata, solo practice, practicing specific attacks and responses, shadow boxing, strength training, endurance training, and nearly everything else I can think of.

Hey, look, I'm back on the topic of sparring!

 

[RTKDCMB]

Uh, how was I proven wrong?

You displayed Ashida Kim as an example of what happens when someone doesn't spar full contact so I showed you a video of Ashida Kim sparring full contact, pretty obvious really.

I said that the first video showed crappy technique and fantasy, and you show a video of a phoney fighting match showing more crappy, nonsensical technique to "prove me wrong"?

By picking the worst example you could find you were attempting to imply that Ashidia Kim is the inevitable result of never sparring full contact, you failed.

 

[Ironbear24]

I'm not surprised that you think that's a real fight.

What about it is fake?

 

[Ironbear24]

Let me know when you move out of your mother's basement.

How mature of you.

 

[pgsmith]

What about it is fake?

If it involves Ashida Kim, then the answer is "everything".

How mature of you.

You do realize that kids are the only ones that ever say that right?

 

[drop bear]

That still doesn't explain your "form follows function" comment. That's an engineering motto, which basically means that the form of a thing must flow from the function it is meant to serve, rather than being entirely for looks (in cases where the latter might make it less functional).

So, if you mean by that phrase that movement and stance (in MA) should all be based upon the need of the application, I agree entirely. If that's not essentially what you meant, please let me know.

As for your reference to our kata, your "form follows function" doesn't really seem to have any relevance. The kata version of our techniques in many cases has no true combat function. I'll pick one for explanation. The Classical Technique is called "Unbendable Arm", and starts from a static same-side grip (so uke's left hand gripping nage's right, for instance, and not crossing their bodies). The response involves slightly complicated footwork, specific angles of movement, an uke who hangs on as if your arm were worth keeping while standing still as if he were standing on a land mine, and multiple weight shifts. If I showed it to you, you'd say there's no way that's a self-defense move. And you'd be right. The point of that kata is to work on weight shifts, double-weighting an uke, dropping the one point (center of gravity), practicing the mechanics of an arm that doesn't bend without tension, and several other things. In application, very little is the same. Typically when we use Unbendable Arm in application, it's a very simple unbending, not-tense arm being used to off-balance the attacker (shoved in his face while entering, for example), and most of the rest of the "Technique" is absent. That's how several of our Classical Techniques work, though UA is clearly the most distant from application.

Oh, and before you say something so definitive about someone's art (if you don't see it, you don't understand the kata), maybe you ought to know at least a little about the art? I know that might be true in your art (I know it is in many, as I've heard from experienced practitioners in those), but our kata are often not nearly as deep. For instance, unlike what I've been shown/explained in some CMA kata, there are not multiple movements and options in a single point of our kata. There are not multiple levels in them - they are straightforward, for the most part (again, UA being the most notable exception). I've actually been working on some new kata with multiple movements in them, to build a training tool that delivers some of those benefits, but they are not currently in the art.

Two schools of thought on the issue of kata. Yours is different to others.it is important to know people think differently about things. That way when we have a discussion we are not discussing different things.

So here I am not talking specifically about your kata.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure how this is a response to my post...

Moves that attack the eye are considered inherently better than moves that don't but it is a misconception in that the person still needs to reach that eye while protecting his own.

 

[drop bear]

Isn't bringing up Ashida Kim in a martial arts debate/discussion the martial arts equivalent of Godwin's Law? I mean, really, who ever brings him into a serious conversation?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Moves that attack the eye are considered inherently better than moves that don't but it is a misconception in that the person still needs to reach that eye while protecting his own.

Since my point was that removing an eye in combat would be damnably difficult (if even theoretically possible) - to such a point that the person fighting back doesn't measurably decrease your likelihood of being able to do so. It was a bit tongue-in-cheek, though technically accurate.

 

[Hanzou]

Interesting - it looks like a pre-arranged outcome. Some decent hits a few times (unless their acting was better than in WWE), but it certainly looks partly choreographed given the repeated throws. So, can we count heavy-hitting pre-arranged stuff as "sparring"? We haven't really defined what sparring is. If we assume (as appears to be the case) that this was very loosely choreographed (providing some key opening, pre-arranged ending), is the part in between valid sparring at any level? If we accept that it's sparring (and I think we can for this sentence, at least), then we have to accept that sparring doesn't remove the garbage we saw in your original posting - that requires GOOD sparring.

That would be in keeping with what I know of all training: none of it is terribly useful unless it's good. That would hold true for kata, solo practice, practicing specific attacks and responses, shadow boxing, strength training, endurance training, and nearly everything else I can think of.

Hey, look, I'm back on the topic of sparring!

No, we count fake, choreographed fights as fake choreographed fights. That video has little to nothing to do with sparring.

 

[Hanzou]

You displayed Ishida Kim as an example of what happens when someone doesn't spar full contact so I showed you a video of Ishida Kim sparring full contact, pretty obvious really.

He wasn't sparring full contact. He was performing an act for a crowd. It's no different than WWE wrestling, or a carnival show, everything is scripted and plotted out ahead of time, and the stunts are rehearsed in order to wow the crowds.

Again, I'm not surprised that you fell for it.

By picking the worst example you could find you were attempting to imply that Ashidia Kim is the inevitable result of never sparring full contact, you failed.

Well first off I didn't find the example, Drop Bear did. I simply commented on it, since Ashida Kim is the epitome of fake/phoney martial arts.

What about it is fake?

Just about everything about that was fake. Again, its a choreographed fight show no different than what you see in WWE wrasslin'.

 

[drop bear]

Since my point was that removing an eye in combat would be damnably difficult (if even theoretically possible) - to such a point that the person fighting back doesn't measurably decrease your likelihood of being able to do so. It was a bit tongue-in-cheek, though technically accurate.

Fair enough.

 

[drop bear]

Your art is not above fighting in a cage,, your martial art is not too deadly for competitive fighting, how rich and famous are you?

Because they are better fighters than me at that level. They are better fighters than hanzou at that level and we would get bashed. I wouldn't look forward to try to do them in the street either.

Sparring these guys at any real pace puts me at a real risk of being crippled because I am not at that level and don't have the defence.